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941  Economy / Economics / Re: Defiatize the unit of value on: November 12, 2014, 10:48:22 PM
What benefit will leaving fiat give users? The case for abandoning fiat isn't a compelling one, even though people on the internet will be amazed to hear that.
I hate to be this blunt, but honestly the general problem of non-digital natives will be solved over time as the people who aren't comfortable with technology get old and die.

In the specific case of Bitcoin, the factor you've left out of your analysis is that fiat currencies around the world are in the process of committing suicide.

If our grandparents can figure out how to use Facebook just because they want to see everyone's pictures then they can figure out how to use Bitcoin as their financial survival increasingly depends on it.

Its not up to the consumer.  Its up to the state.  Fiat money is created and maintained by the state.

As a consumer you are free to use any private money you want except when paying taxes.  You have to use the states money to pay taxes

So then we arrive at the same question.  Why is private money better than state money?

Look up Free Banking Era and see what happened during that time
942  Economy / Economics / Re: What are the must-read Rothbard's books ? on: November 12, 2014, 10:32:52 PM
The reason why anarchism is incompatible with capitalism is that in a capitalist society the ones that hold all the capital are the rulers.  Its not possible to have "no rulers" under capitalism

Holding or owning capital doesn't necessarily make one a ruler.  It's having and exercising the ability to force someone to do something they otherwise wouldn't do that makes one a ruler.  Rulers (governments) certainly have to have assets and resources to impose their will on the unwilling, but that doesn't mean that everyone with assets and resources will resort to initiating violence.  Those that want to live peacefully in a free market can agree to respond with force against someone that declares them self a ruler and initiates the use of force.

Anarchy is what happens after Capitalism collapse according to Marxist ideology.  Marx thought to get to this state you need a proletariat revolution first.  Anarchists think you can just skip the revolution part

So Marx wasn't a statist, but an anarchist?  No rulers would be required—everyone would just freely choose to participate in a socialist economic system?

In a stateless & capitalist society the big corporations have no regulatory body, therefore they would weild most power.

Both Marxists and Anarchists share a common goal for liberating the working class

My error for thinking Anarchism has roots in Marxism.  Anarchism has roots in philosophies pre Marx such as Rousseau

But during the time of the First International,  Marx had ideological conflicts with Bakunin, an Anarchist.  Marx eventually had Bakunin expelled from the group although they share a common  anti capitalist goal

Im not an expert on Marx.  But I dont think he had a theory of what the state looks like in a post capitalist society.  His idea of the modern state is that it serves the interest of the bourgouis class.  I dont know if he just wants to replace that w a state that representative of the working class or no state/ minimal state
943  Economy / Economics / Re: What are the must-read Rothbard's books ? on: November 12, 2014, 07:19:59 PM
Anarchism has nothing to do w AnCap except the word Anarchism

Its like Nazism has nothing to do w Socialism

Anarcho-capitalism is a combination of anarchy and capitalism.

AnCaps don't understand Anarchism.  

Anarchism has its roots in Marxist thinking so the economic system for classical Anarchists would be Socialist.  Anarchism & Capitalism are incompatible ideology.

AnCaps are followers of Rothbard and the libertarian ones are followers of Ayn Rand.  But its all just dumb neckbeard kids.  Nobody serious takes them seriously.  The same dumb kids who think Nazis are Socialists when everyone knows Nazis practice Fascism AND Capitalism

Actually there are some people that refer to themselves as anarchists that don't seem to understand that the word "anarchy" simply means "no rulers".  I'm not convinced that a truly anarchist society is possible, but I'm not opposed to letting them try it out.  It might work, but I would be happy if we just moved towards a more libertarian, or minarchist, political system that let people participate in an economic system of their choice.

Anarchists can be capitalists or socialists.  As long as they don't condone the imposition of an economic system (or a monetary system) on someone against their will through the initiation of force by rulers.  Just let people choose the monetary and economic system that they want to participate in, voluntarily.

Ayn Rand was an ojectivist, but I don't believe she was a libertarian, I've even read that she despised libertarians.  I've been a libertarian since the late 90's, but I don't think I qualify as an objectivist.  I don't really know all of the details about Ayn Rand or objectivism.  I believe there is a lot of overlap, and I agree with a great deal of her philosophy.  However, I also think she supported the concept of "intellectual property" and state/military intervention in the affairs of other nations.


The reason why anarchism is incompatible with capitalism is that in a capitalist society the ones that hold all the capital are the rulers.  Its not possible to have "no rulers" under capitalism

Anarchy is what happens after Capitalism collapse according to Marxist ideology.  Marx thought to get to this state you need a proletariat revolution first.  Anarchists think you can just skip the revolution part
944  Economy / Economics / Re: What if a Country go back to Gold (bitcoin) standard? on: November 12, 2014, 07:13:28 PM
If it were the case I would not debate.
I suggest you just try to sell one cheeseburger on your doorstep without breaking a law. I am waiting.

If you never tried to build a business and secure your income from tax payers, then sure you are in pony land. (Either that or your business is protected from competitor by the state)

Ive had a business for 18 years.  No problems here.  And a lot of business sell cheeseburgers.  Where is your problem exactly?

Because you can't do that with licence of government and paying them fees up front.
If you can't do business on the doorstep of your own house, then don't talk about any freedom to choose and non aggression.

I know that lot of business sell cheeseburger, but it is ridiculously complicated and impossible to do it in your own house legally.
This is the tip of the iceberg of liberty broken.

If you made the kind of business that can survive thanks to his customer, and not with special privilege, licence, and subsidies protecting your from competition, then kudo.
You are the only honest businessman I have seen defending the state.

Im not defending the state.  I just acknowledge that a state is there.  The state never hindered my business.  The competition however, hinders my business greatly.  Haha

BTW im pretty sure its pretty cheap and easy to register as a sole proprietorship.  So I dont know what complications you are talking about.  
945  Economy / Economics / Re: What if a Country go back to Gold (bitcoin) standard? on: November 12, 2014, 05:39:27 PM
If it were the case I would not debate.
I suggest you just try to sell one cheeseburger on your doorstep without breaking a law. I am waiting.

If you never tried to build a business and secure your income from tax payers, then sure you are in pony land. (Either that or your business is protected from competitor by the state)

Ive had a business for 18 years.  No problems here.  And a lot of business sell cheeseburgers.  Where is your problem exactly?
946  Economy / Economics / Re: What if a Country go back to Gold (bitcoin) standard? on: November 12, 2014, 05:23:05 PM
Quote
That is naive.  You cant just say "oh you dont want liberty?" That's a strawman argument. Of course everyone wants liberty.  Marx wanted liberty,  Keynes wanted liberty.
If liberty is so blurry concept, the liberty of rothbard is the freedom to choose without stepping on someone else property. This is very specific definition, not a blurry one.

We already have that.
947  Economy / Economics / Re: What if a Country go back to Gold (bitcoin) standard? on: November 12, 2014, 05:07:52 PM
Quote
But just because something is logical doesn't mean its true.

The thing is either you reject his end goal : maximizing liberty, and can trash what he said.
Either you don't reject this goal, and good luck with finding a flaw in the reasoning.

Nowadays economists, find the right statistics that support policies of the elites. (by tweaking GDP calculation methods, or finding metrics that favor particular policy)
Thinking elites make policies to improve statistics is wishful thinking.
The reality is not really different from the pope granting the holy power to the king.

This is not to say I did not appreciate monetary history of the US of Friedman, which opened my eyes about the history of money and its meaning.

But judging on principles, not on faith (of god power, of stats), is the only way each of us can evaluate if a policy goes for or against it without being manipulated.

This is what I like about Rothbard.
Right now, if you have policy A, you will have 50% economists for and 50% against, each with their own data and stats justifying both side.
Then the policy maker just pick the stats he needs to make it pass.

When you follow Rothbard reasoning, he will explain why policy A is better or worse, only based on the single NA principle. There is no "maybe right, maybe wrong", only clear cut.
But an anarcho capitalist, don't have to read what Rothbard to reach the same conclusion. With only NAP, he will walk on the exact same steps.

I need some time to digest what I read from him, so I am not yet anarcho capitalist, but he definitively opened my eyes on what I did not think could exist.

That is naive.  You cant just say "oh you dont want liberty?" That's a strawman argument. Of course everyone wants liberty.  Marx wanted liberty,  Keynes wanted liberty. 

What you should consider is if he understands economics or not.  Does his theory support what is observable.  Is there data support his theory?

Praxeology is logical deduction.  You cant get useful answers from praxeology.  At worst you fool yourself into tautological arguments



948  Economy / Economics / Re: What if a Country go back to Gold (bitcoin) standard? on: November 12, 2014, 03:32:10 PM
Great summary erdogan
You made me want to shut down computer and go back reviewing my mises and rothbard books. Grin

Dude stick to Friedman.  At least he's a real economist.

His summary is whack cause post-bubble Japan has exactly the Paradox of Thrift problem for decades.  And FYI, Friedman did think QE was the correct policy.  However, QE didn't work in that Japan situation because monetarists are wrong about how to get out of recession.  Monetary policies only arrest the deflationary spiral, but it can't increase AD.  Monetary policies worked for 70's stagflation because its easier to impose discipline on inflation than it is to stimulate spending.  "Pushing on a string" is what they call it

This is the only thing that is odd to me (and rothbard talk about it), is that Friedman make an exception for the monopoly of monetary policy.
Rothbard have a highly negative view on Friedman because of such incoherence.  (and the negative income tax idea)

I'm not sure what is a "real economist". I'm not anarcho capitalist yet, but from what I read in Rothbard's book, his arguments and conclusions are coherent and logical.
Rothbard starts from the non aggression principle, and explain how to fix whatever domestic or foreign matter within those bounds. Most of the time referring to successful instance in history.

We might say that Rothbard is not real economist, but we can't say that he is incoherent and illogical.

However any compromise on the non aggression principle, and you'll end up with different conclusions.

For Rothbard, a QE would violate the principle, because it transfer wealth from savers to stock holders.


Its not odd.  Friedman is the founder of monetarism.  He sees economics as money supply.  So all problems can be fixed via monetary policy.

Also Friedman is not what you call a modern American libertarian.  He's  more an admirer of Adam Smith.

Rothbard is big into logical deduction via praxeology.  But just because something is logical doesn't mean its true.  He reaches conclusion w/o finding empirical or statistical evidence

I say not 'real' because he neither uses modelling or statistics or facts, the common tools of economists
949  Economy / Economics / Re: What if a Country go back to Gold (bitcoin) standard? on: November 12, 2014, 04:51:39 AM
Great summary erdogan
You made me want to shut down computer and go back reviewing my mises and rothbard books. Grin

Dude stick to Friedman.  At least he's a real economist.

His summary is whack cause post-bubble Japan has exactly the Paradox of Thrift problem for decades.  And FYI, Friedman did think QE was the correct policy.  However, QE didn't work in that Japan situation because monetarists are wrong about how to get out of recession.  Monetary policies only arrest the deflationary spiral, but it can't increase AD.  Monetary policies worked for 70's stagflation because its easier to impose discipline on inflation than it is to stimulate spending.  "Pushing on a string" is what they call it
950  Economy / Economics / Re: What are the must-read Rothbard's books ? on: November 12, 2014, 04:40:15 AM
Anarchism has nothing to do w AnCap except the word Anarchism

Its like Nazism has nothing to do w Socialism

Anarcho-capitalism is a combination of anarchy and capitalism.

AnCaps don't understand Anarchism. 

Anarchism has its roots in Marxist thinking so the economic system for classical Anarchists would be Socialist.  Anarchism & Capitalism are incompatible ideology.

AnCaps are followers of Rothbard and the libertarian ones are followers of Ayn Rand.  But its all just dumb neckbeard kids.  Nobody serious takes them seriously.  The same dumb kids who think Nazis are Socialists when everyone knows Nazis practice Fascism AND Capitalism

----------------

Chomsky interview about the subject:

Man: What's the difference between "libertarian" and "anarchist," exactly?

Chomsky: There's no difference, really. I think they're the same thing. But you see, "libertarian" has a special meaning in the United States. The United States is off the spectrum of the main tradition in this respect: what's called "libertarianism" here is unbridled capitalism. Now, that's always been opposed in the European libertarian tradition, where every anarchist has been a socialist—because the point is, if you have unbridled capitalism, you have all kinds of authority: you have extreme authority.

If capital is privately controlled, then people are going to have to rent themselves in order to survive. Now, you can say, "they rent themselves freely, it's a free contract"—but that's a joke. If your choice is, "do what I tell you or starve," that's not a choice—it's in fact what was commonly referred to as wage slavery in more civilized times, like the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, for example.

The American version of "libertarianism" is an aberration, though—nobody really takes it seriously. I mean, everybody knows that a society that worked by American libertarian principles would self-destruct in three seconds. The only reason people pretend to take it seriously is because you can use it as a weapon. Like, when somebody comes out in favor of a tax, you can say: "No, I'm a libertarian, I'm against that tax"—but of course, I'm still in favor of the government building roads, and having schools, and killing Libyans, and all that sort of stuff.

Now, there are consistent libertarians, people like Murray Rothbard—and if you just read the world that they describe, it's a world so full of hate that no human being would want to live in it. This is a world where you don't have roads because you don't see any reason why you should cooperate in building a road that you're not going to use: if you want a road, you get together with a bunch of other people who are going to use that road and you build it, then you charge people to ride on it. If you don't like the pollution from somebody's automobile, you take them to court and you litigate it. Who would want to live in a world like that? It's a world built on hatred.19

The whole thing's not even worth talking about, though. First of all, it couldn't function for a second—and if it could, all you'd want to do is get out, or commit suicide or something. But this is a special American aberration, it's not really serious.
951  Economy / Economics / Re: What are the must-read Rothbard's books ? on: November 12, 2014, 12:33:35 AM
Anarchism has nothing to do w AnCap except the word Anarchism

Its like Nazism has nothing to do w Socialism
952  Economy / Economics / Re: The Three Questions: What do you propose? on: November 11, 2014, 11:44:12 PM
And BTW, Stefan Molyneux is an idiot.  At least this Peter Joseph guy has a brain

You must have missed this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUtv5E6CkLE

Yeah exactly.  Molyneux cant even stay on point and likes to talk over people.  If his ideas are any good he wouldn't need to do that.

The problem w Peter Joseph is RBE is utopian.  His critiques of market forces are correct.  He just doesnt have a good solution yet what to do about it. 
953  Economy / Economics / Re: The Three Questions: What do you propose? on: November 11, 2014, 10:14:41 PM

Oh great, Peter Joseph.  Hasn't Stefan Molyneux already addressed his mindset and this Zeitgeist thing?

I couldn't even get halfway through it.  Just illogical nonsense.  Sounds like he wants to replace a centrally planned economy with a new, improved, centrally planned economy.

I doesn't really talk about the solution.  He talks about his premise (the 3 questions) which are quite correct and not illogical at all.

He only talks about getting rid of markets, but he has no idea how to do it.  That's my big critique of RBE there's no way to get to there without disruption on the scale of bloody revolution like France or Russia

And BTW, Stefan Molyneux is an idiot.  At least this Peter Joseph guy has a brain
954  Economy / Economics / Re: The Three Questions: What do you propose? on: November 11, 2014, 10:00:06 PM
Those are pretty good questions.

My opinion of Peter Joseph is that he is a brilliant critic in the same sense Marx was an brilliant critic of Capitalism.

But PJ has the same problem as Marx.  The RBE is not a realistic goal because there can't be a transitioning process without massive disruption
955  Economy / Economics / Re: Economic Inequality on: November 10, 2014, 05:12:03 PM
The goal isn't to have equality.  The goal is to keep inequality gap from getting out of hand.  Would you rather have a distribution like Post War US & UK or Pre Revolutionary France?

That's the issue now as the IG gets close to the levels of Pre Revolutionary France
956  Economy / Economics / Re: why do people agree to pay taxes? on: November 10, 2014, 03:55:34 AM
The government of The United States of America is a government by name and definition, not a business.
Well, I for one do not think that D&B are liars; the gov on the other hand is full of liars.

And the current system of government is not operating under authority of the original Constitution.

I am not in receipt of any proof that gov agencies are nonprofit entities. All complaints or indictments today cite "laws" which bear no enacting clause, that is to say, they lack the seal of constitutional authority.

Many recognize that the legal system today does not follow constitutional law or the common law, as it once did, but is now operating under some other law.

Read more about Our Nonconstitutional Legal System; by its own actions, that "government" that you allege to be constitutional and lawful has no more authority over me than any other private company! If you are in a rush, you can read just the last page or two of that link.

I'm gonna have to invoke Poe's Law here.  Can't tell if this guy is serious or trolling
957  Economy / Economics / Re: Decentralized hedge fund on: November 10, 2014, 03:49:43 AM
I don't think OP knows what a hedge fund is.

Why is it that bitcoiners think "decentralized" is some magic word that makes everything better?
958  Economy / Economics / Re: why do people agree to pay taxes? on: November 09, 2014, 07:06:39 AM
LOL, being so fixed in your beliefs that you can't consider other possibilities. Amazing.

Why consider the possibility that the government is benevolent? Who stands to benefit from that belief?

People who deny the mere possibility that government is being bribed by corporate interests, systemic quid pro quo.

True, but you must remember that the government itself is a private corporate interest, a private company.

Per Dun & Bradstreet: http://www.allcreatorsgifts.org/main0025.html

D&B is just a database that issues a unique number.  The govt probably has a number so it can do business w private sector.  Doesnt mean the govt is is private company.

By definitnition it is government.  How is this not understandable?
959  Economy / Economics / Re: why do people agree to pay taxes? on: November 09, 2014, 05:50:53 AM
LOL, being so fixed in your beliefs that you can't consider other possibilities. Amazing.

Why consider the possibility that the government is benevolent? Who stands to benefit from that belief?

Thats a strawman.  Nobody thinks govt is benevolent.  We "statists" think govt play a role in society.  They should be criticised if they fail in their role.  Its just idiotic to think there should be no govt or private sectors can replace specific governmental roles

OOPS! “Government of the United States” listed on Dun & Bradstreet as a Private Corporation.

Yeah, it is totally idiotic that this government is a for-profit entity, I agree with that!!

Wait are you claiming US Govt is a for profit company?  Clearly delusional.  Go back to school
960  Economy / Economics / Re: why do people agree to pay taxes? on: November 09, 2014, 05:28:40 AM
LOL, being so fixed in your beliefs that you can't consider other possibilities. Amazing.

Why consider the possibility that the government is benevolent? Who stands to benefit from that belief?

Thats a strawman.  Nobody thinks govt is benevolent.  We "statists" think govt play a role in society.  They should be criticised if they fail in their role.  Its just idiotic to think there should be no govt or private sectors can replace specific governmental roles

Specifically speaking, why have an adminstrator of public services that have profit motive?  Like youv'e never been fucked over by a corporation
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