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741  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Defending Bitcoin against interventionists on: April 02, 2012, 12:09:22 AM
Do you mean Tyler Durden clever? Or do you mean Pirate Bay, MegaUpload, Wikileaks clever?
Lazy wording on my part. Presumably those guys are all busy on other projects and/or getting deported, so no. Strictly speaking it'll be a broad group, including but not exclusive to:
teens experimenting with their gaming rig because they heard about the "free money", engineering students borrowing FPGA kits, IT admins kitting out their server room at work, young parents running a start-up...

They may or may not be financially literate... But with various challenges being thrown their way, they can only improve.
742  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Has anyone used Bitcoin to make an international fiat money transfer cheaper? on: April 01, 2012, 11:06:20 PM
From Europe (SEPA zone) to the US:
1/ Wire transfer euros to bitcoin-central.net: cost zero and takes about a day
2/ Buy bitcoins on bitcoin-central (cost zero fee)
3/ Send bitcoins: recipient sells them on mtgox and cashes out via Dwolla (cost 25 cts takes about a day)

Total Cost: liquidity spread + 25 cts and two days

If I do the same with banks it will cost me 16.50 euros and at least 5 days (I must write a letter to my bank: after that all I can do is hope they wont screw up, which they do quite often).
For me the main cost was that the bank would quote a really bad exchange rate with a wide spread, thus hiding their true fee.
743  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I went to Meze Grill today and paid with VISA on: April 01, 2012, 10:44:43 PM
Maybe we're going about this the wrong way. What if instead trying to get restaurants to accept bitcoins, show them how to give them away as promotional items. We've all seen the buy-9-pizzas-get-the-10th-one-free promo. What about this: Buy 10 any size pizza with any toppings within the next 30 days and receive the average selling price of the pizza (only--no drinks, bread sticks, etc.) in bitcoins. The customer should quickly realize that the higher price paid for each pizza will result in a higher average reward. Offer one per customer per one email account only, allowing the buyers to think they're gaming the system if they use two email accounts, when in reality it gives the chain an extra email account(s) to market to. Somehow, set up the campaign incorporating smartphones and email apps. This is a very important aspect for the chain to be able to benefit from such a promotion with maximum return. Their risk? Virtually none. Their reward? Great, if done properly. Their cost? Cheaper than any other promotional options currently available (I think). ROI? Should be pretty damn good.

Again, they don't even have to accept Bitcoin until/unless a critical mass of their customer base request it.

~Bruno~

You're the culinary expert, time to get cracking! This part can be tough - I sometimes fall into the trap of getting inspired, but then over-thinking, picking holes, and coming to a straw man conclusion that it'll never work.
744  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Defending Bitcoin against interventionists on: April 01, 2012, 08:48:28 PM
Yes! That is what I am trying to say! Agreed with you!

No-one will be trying to "prove" to you or me why you (or me) must or must not run it.

And we will just continue to use it. That is an easiest way to intervene the project - just subtly intervene the code, so noone notices.
1. Hijack the hosting, that distibutes the binaries, and you will affect the majority of users, that do not compile by themselves.
2. Hijack the developers' workplaces, and you will get the ability to subtly affect the source code.
3. Hijack the source control system, and you will control the source and the binaries.
And don't think, that the "evil Cool powers" will be forced to do that via Internet access only.
Whenever the government comes to play, or the hugest businesses, then physically hijacking the servers is the cheapest attack on the Bitcoin.

Bitcoin as a payment system suffers from the threats to Bitcoin as a software project.
They are the common threats, not Bitcoin-specific, I think they are obvious to every opensource programmer.

Yes, there are some countermeasures to protect Bitcoin as a payment system from such attacks, like developing a standard first, not a software. But AFAIK they are not deployed NOW, standard may change, and users cannot affect to veto the changes, unless they coordinate, which is, well, unlikely  without a sound reason.
That's all I can say.

I find it fascinating how Bitcoin demonstrates how immense power can be wielded where there is a knowledge gap. The cleverest miners with the best technology mine the most coins for the lowest cost. Developers have a literacy advantage over non-developers. And the community as a whole appears to be several steps ahead of the financial kakistocracy Cheesy
745  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Has anyone used Bitcoin to make an international fiat money transfer cheaper? on: April 01, 2012, 07:35:17 PM
I keep wallets in multiple currencies on the Gox. That side of things seems to work well. It's just getting money out of a financial dictatorship like Australia that's a b*tch. Tens of dollars per international transaction, regardless of whether the currency gets converted or not.
746  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I went to Meze Grill today and paid with VISA on: April 01, 2012, 06:25:34 PM
Merchants A-L: We accept Bitcoin.
Merchants M-Z: How's that working out for you?

~Bruno~

Maybe local dine-in restaurants just aren't a good option for Bitcoin right now? If what you're saying is true then it sounds like the industry was kicking and screaming and dragging its heels until the competition forced them to start accepting ordinary credit cards.

Maybe a better bet would be to convince a large pizza chain to accept Bitcoin as online payment option? It's a naturally better fit. There's already a delivery delay, they already have websites and online processing, and the Bitcoin scene is already full of hungry programmers and students who like to eat pizza and sit in front of computers! The sales pitch? Corner an emerging market before anyone else does, and do it cheaply and with low risk. Smiley
747  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I went to Meze Grill today and paid with VISA on: April 01, 2012, 01:39:57 PM
Quote
The recent news about Visa/Mastercard security breaches is like a gift from the gods. There must be some way to combine that into a sales pitch.

There is, along with the dozen or so times it's happened prior, but the merchants still keep faith in Visa/Mastercard. They don't have faith in something that is relatively new.

Example:

Salesperson: I have this new kind of doll. It's called Barbie.
Merchant: I'm not interested, for nobody's asking for it.

Later:

Salesperson: I have this new kind of doll. It's...
Merchant: Is it Barbie?
Salesperson: Yes. And it cost only...
Merchant: We're clearing shelf space now.

~Bruno~

That general situation sounds so familiar! Somewhere in between:

Merchant A: Hey no fair! How come you guys are making a killing just because you started selling Barbie first?!
Merchant B: Haha! Sucker!

So if a certain market isn't ready for Bitcoin yet, save your energy and move on to a segment that is more receptive. Nothing wrong with a first adopter advantage.

Edit: maybe retail/consumer eatery margins just aren't that tight. Any Internet based/Internet-ready retailers you could lend a hand to?
748  Other / Meta / Re: We need a "No begging" policy... on: April 01, 2012, 01:25:33 PM
I think begging is part of a competitive market and naturally sorts itself out. Isn't any soliciting for commerce essentially begging? It's just that the marketing skill and creativity of the "beggar" varies across a wide range. Who can draw a line and say "this is acceptable business advertising, but that isn't"?

So... "my house burned down, please spare some change" could be considered "acceptable business advertising" by some standard that I'm not aware of?
It doesn't matter. As long as people have two brain cells to rub together, they will ignore that person (or ridicule them or whatever), and instead they'll send their money to some other guy offering shares in a venture capital housing construction business.
749  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I went to Meze Grill today and paid with VISA on: April 01, 2012, 01:09:00 PM
Perhaps, we're missing something. An extra oomph for B&M's that would make Bitcoin tower above all else that's currently available. What that oomph is, at the moment I'ven't a clue. But with all the bright minds here, I'm confident that oomph will manifest itself.

I'm going to have more to say on this important issue, but I'll end this post with only the thoughts above.

~Bruno~

The recent news about Visa/Mastercard security breaches is like a gift from the gods. There must be some way to combine that into a sales pitch.

Come to think of it, one thing that I suspect may work against people who are trying to promote Bitcoin, is their altruism, believe it or not! People are so accustomed to sales pitches that if they can't see how you're supposed to benefit by charitably promoting Bitcoin, they immediately suspect it's some kind of scam. It's probably better to promote a Bitcoin-based product that provides some direct benefit to you, because it ironically seems more honest to the layperson.
750  Other / Meta / Re: We need a "No begging" policy... on: April 01, 2012, 12:46:39 PM
I think begging is part of a competitive market and naturally sorts itself out. Isn't any soliciting for commerce essentially begging? It's just that the marketing skill and creativity of the "beggar" varies across a wide range. Who can draw a line and say "this is acceptable business advertising, but that isn't"?
751  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I went to Meze Grill today and paid with VISA on: April 01, 2012, 11:32:54 AM
In that case I think there's a niche for a Bitcoin specific credit card. The service would allow you to borrow dollars for an extremely short-term loan, which is immediately paid off with Bitcoin transactions. The CC company gives you the market exchange rate between Bitcoin and dollars (or your local currency), and keeps a small percentage for themselves. Of course it wrecks the decentralisation ideology that many people hold dear, but any non-monopoly has to demonstrate trustworthiness in order to gain support.

On second thought, there are probably some very good reasons why the number of "competing" CC companies in the world seems to be so small. At a guess, they've probably got incompatible communication systems and/or software requirements in the point-of-sale readers... Not such a simple problem to solve after all.
752  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I went to Meze Grill today and paid with VISA on: April 01, 2012, 11:24:25 AM
In that case I think there's a niche for a Bitcoin specific credit card. The service would allow you to borrow dollars for an extremely short-term loan, which is immediately paid off with Bitcoin transactions. The CC company gives you the market exchange rate between Bitcoin and dollars (or your local currency), and keeps a small percentage for themselves. Of course it wrecks the decentralisation ideology that many people hold dear, but any non-monopoly has to demonstrate trustworthiness in order to gain support.
753  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I went to Meze Grill today and paid with VISA on: April 01, 2012, 10:59:36 AM
Too much hassle for close to zero benefit.

Fixed that for you.

The merchant saves on Visa/Mastercard + banking fees when using bitcoin. Please stop spreading FUD.
754  Economy / Economics / Re: The moronic purification cult is a direct result of hoarding on: April 01, 2012, 10:46:31 AM
Brother, although what you say has the ring of substance,
I entirely fail to see what point you're trying to make.

And I read the OP twice.

He's spreading FUD. It's "fear, uncertainty, and doubt" for those who are unfamiliar with the term. It's basically anti-bitcoin propaganda to discourage people from adopting it. If you can imagine someone who has just recently heard about bitcoin and wants to find out more about it, they are likely to hop on the Internet to find out more from a range of sources to build an overall picture of "what it's all about". If there seem to be lots of "concerned people" who are, ahem:

Quote
waiting for the system to change, reset, repair.

then the "Newbies" more likely to be discouraged from investing in Bitcoin. They probably wouldn't even consider the idea that what the OP is saying is complete bullsh*t.

That is what propaganda is all about. It's about having some kind of ulterior motive and trying to sway public opinion. The bigger the "ring of substance" (despite lack of evidence), then the more effective it is likely to be.

"Half truths" are a very popular technique. Say something that seems true, e.g.: about stealing or hacking or something like that, but then conveniently forget to mention how often it happens, or how it compares to the US dollar or something like that.

Repeating their claims many times is another technique. These boards are great for it because 2 guys working together can simply keep quoting and linking each other, thus drowning out alternative opinions.
755  Economy / Speculation / Re: Crash!!!! on: March 31, 2012, 11:34:52 PM
we will go down because moneys value is 999...9% lower that actual value

Notice how they always forget the decimal point/comma just so they can have an upside down 666 on silver? Cheesy
756  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: scammed when selling bitcoins on ebay on: March 31, 2012, 11:22:57 PM
good luck getting 51% of the copyrights and payment volume
none of them should be impossible but the price tag is ... challenging

Why buy when you can FORK?

I hereby present: PwnPal*
  • A commercial wrapper for Bitcoin.
  • Ridiculous fees.
  • Nominal customer service.
  • And one thing sure to put a smile on merchants' faces: no chargeback!

*If symptoms persist, please see your doctor.
757  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: If Bitcoin is an experiment,... on: March 31, 2012, 11:05:23 PM
Just out of curiosity how many BTC do you need to be part of the 1% of the BTC market?


Does not compute. According to Wall St accounting (sic) principles (sic), all bitcoins in existence are a liability. Grin
758  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: If Bitcoin is an experiment,... on: March 31, 2012, 04:34:34 PM
Fractional reserve banking sounds like an even bigger experiment to me.

In addition, does anyone know how this works?:
Amount x in currency X buys 1 pizza.
Amount y in currency Y buys 1 pizza.
The pizzas represent a comparable broad basket of goods that are locally available in the respective jurisdiction of each currency.
However, when exchanging the two currencies, 1x buys 5y.
Why? Because one country has a more effective tourism marketing strategy than the another? It seems one possible answer is that one country stealthily inflates their currency with various trading instruments, and is temporarily able to con the other country by restricting their access to those instruments.
759  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: scammed when selling bitcoins on ebay on: March 31, 2012, 03:36:12 PM
Isn't Paypal owned by Ebay, and Ebay owned/partly owned by the US Gov?

Bitcoin + (Ebay | Paypal) = playing with fire.

Individuals on the help lines might be very nice about Bitcoin burns, but I doubt that's the official policy.
760  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How is Bitcoin valuable for YOU? on: March 31, 2012, 02:07:05 PM
i know this thread is not really about 'price' or exchange rate but i was thinking recently about how sometimes there is resistance in me to spend any of my coins and i realised it's because i value them much higher than $5 each.

when i spend 10 btc for example, it feels like i'm giving up A LOT more than fifty bucks.

i think subconsciously i'm taking into account their 'future value'.

...still LOVE the convenience of spending coins over fiat though Cheesy

That's a really good point. When I started surfing this forum, I was bit shocked at how so many people were throwing the term "value" around loosely, when they really meant "today's market price" or "mining cost" or "estimated future dollar returns", among others. This thread has really exceeded my hopes in getting people to think about how they feel about Bitcoin and how to put their sentiments into words.  Smiley

I immediately turn around and send the corresponding USD amount to my MtGox account and buy the coins back a couple of days later once the money gets there.

heh, not a bad plan, except that costs me $30 each time.
I had the same problem at one point. Last time I checked, crypto-x-change had a few too many bugs and readability issues for me to feel comfortable using them, and I hope they been getting it sorted out because Australia is a real banana republic when it comes to banking.
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