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241  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion on: September 04, 2015, 05:24:42 PM

The Rocks Compute Cluster is used primarily to generate 4K/8K/16K DH keys and large Mersenne primes.

 Or something else?

Something else, an in-house written DH Key generation routine which uses as it's seed a large Mersenne Prime.
These large primes are no where near as large as the primes GIMPS is working on, but still fall into the definition of large.

Currently, we would like to but are not participating in GIMPS.
Primarily because the cluster sucks a BUTTLOAD of power to run (~50KW) when the nodes are loaded to ~100%.
Consequently, we only "turn it on" when we have jobs for it.

A 16K (actually 16,384) key can take up to 21 days to generate.
So @ 50KW * 24 = 1,200 KWH ($144 @ $0.12/KwH), 1,200 KwH * 21 = 25,200 KwH ($3,024 @ $0.12).

Participating in GIMPS for 30 days (one month) would cost us $4320.
But to be blunt, we just don't have that kind of spare $$$ laying around looking for a home.
As a footnote, the cost and time of generating these rather large DH keys is typically why most VPN providers stick with 2048 and 4196 bit keys (or smaller in some cases).
We have in the past sold computing power for rendering, oil & gas prospecting, and other cryptographic work @ $15-$20 per hour.
Call me a geek but it's really cool to see a couple of hundred cores loaded to ~100% and the power meter spinning like a top. Grin Shocked

242  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion on: September 03, 2015, 03:13:59 PM
Have owned and operated a variety of businesses during my 60 years on the planet.
I've found that if a business is operated with a good moral/ethical compass it flourishes.
Those that don't, don't.

BTW, emailed BM about initially purchasing 1K of BM1385's.
Now waiting in "hot standby" for their response.
Would REALLY like to "pull the trigger" on this ASAP.

So, BM if your reading this let's get this vehicle shifted into high gear and get this done.
243  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion on: September 03, 2015, 02:55:41 AM
... Amazon delivers parcels with drones, and for me personally, drones and the US is not a good willing combination...

Amazon delivering packages with drones is the least of my robotic worries.
Flying Hellfire armed Predators over Ferguson definitely got my attention.

How is it going with the purchase of some BM1385 from Bitmain, are they more friendly and willing to sell some?

Emailing them AGAIN tomorrow.
Asking for pricing on 1K 1385's.
Should be enough for ~50 TypeZero's.

When I know, this thread will know.
244  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion on: September 02, 2015, 05:13:24 PM
I also us Google as little as possible, because their "free services" are paid for by harvesting user data and selling it to everyone from spammers and advertisers to government agencies. I choose not to hand over my life story in exchange for services.


I didn't say Google was evil, I said they were sleazy bastards for harvesting and selling customer data. I'd say that about anyone in the same position, big or small. I bet if more people really realized half of the kind of tracking, logging and ID scripts which Google had embedded in probably half the sites on the Internet by now (via javascript servers, analytics and ad provision) they might also be a bit upset.

Ok, I'll say their evil AND sleazy bastards.

The hang with Google and others is there is no way for the individual to track/control what personal information is disseminated to whom when.
Combine this with the fact the average "user" has no clue how that information can be analyzed and used is particularly compromising.

Most of the big search engines (Google, Yahoo/Bing, etc) and data miners (Axiom, have entire divisions that service LE, it's a huge profit center for them.
As a personal individual I cannot access or correct the information all of the above have on file about me. Yet LE can. What if it's in error?

Sorry to hijack the thread but the problem is worse than one might imagine and I could not resist making a comment.
245  Bitcoin / Group buys / Re: [SIDEHACK STICK] Official sales thread for everywhere not already covered on: September 02, 2015, 03:26:17 PM
So, I still have some kinks to work out with the pick-and-place. About half a dozen of my parts aren't rotated right but that's an easy setting. I stepped through manually and fixed things where I had to, took notes on what needed to be changed in the work file. The potentiometer is the only part I really worry about; it gets picked up just fine (sometimes) but then discarded because the tool doesn't have a good vacuum (on account of its shape) and thinks it's screwed up. The machine discarded about five in a row and then bailed on the program entirely. So that'll need some testing.

I have one board fully placed. Novak hooked up the new oven and figured it out, showed me a thing or two before he left for the day (a little over two hours ago) so I have my panel with one populated stick cooking now.

My goal for the day was to not go home until I had a stick populated. I was hoping to get a whole panel placed and baked, but that'll happen tomorrow. My timeline, jestingly, was to be done by 10PM.

It is now 10PM.

I'll finish the stick tomorrow (need to snap it from the panel, fit USB jack and heatsink) and test it and let everyone know how it's going. Then fix the work program and run out a whole panel. Then post pictures because I'm not going to post pictures now because it's daggum hot and I've been here for eleven hours already. Which puts me at 31 hours worked since 3PM Saturday? Yeah it's time to go home.

EDIT: Alright, fine. I'll post a friggin' picture.

F'ing Awesome!!

So how long does it take to PnP 30 boards?
246  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion on: September 01, 2015, 04:10:00 PM
A photo or two on imgur works . Unless they are Google owned.

I try to use bing and yahoo when possible.

yeeesss, bing all the things! Microsoft wants to know alll about you! raise your hand if you're a poor sod who has win7/8/10.. look at all them sheeple ..

if you'd excuse me, i have some grass to chew on..

 8 sucked  8.1 sucked never used them.

I used  w95 nothing for a while then    w7 w10

Favorite OS was the executive routine on the Univac CP-890/B mainframe.
WinNT was good (server and Workstation), XP, Win 7.
We run Rocks on the bigger of our 2 super computers (~200 Tflop) which is based on Centos and Centos on the smaller one (~50 Tflop).
All our VPN servers run Centos.
We have a smattering of HP DL380's in house that run Centos as well that host a variety of guest OS's.

A little secret, the way Vbox presents CPU cores to a guest OS is to present 1 physical CPU that has XXX internal cores.
This allows us to run Win 7 Pro as a guest OS with, say, 48 cores under VBox.
Thereby bypassing the physical cpu processing limit imposed by MS in their different OS's.

The Rocks Compute Cluster is used primarily to generate 4K/8K/16K DH keys and large Mersenne primes.
The smaller SC is used for DNN (Deep Neural Network) data mining/natural language processing and hosts our "air gapped" Win 7 accounting VM.

We are of the mindset to use an OS that is appropriate for the task at hand.
247  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion on: September 01, 2015, 03:32:13 AM
Oh by the way. The robot arrived about 6PM. I got it unboxed but am still learning how to use it. My goal is to have a full panel of Compacs populated by day's end tomorrow.
Novak's got some assembly to do, so we'll get to test out the oven for a couple things as well. So that's good news at least.

Take a vid of robot in action, pretty please (with a cherry on top).
248  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion on: August 31, 2015, 05:38:45 PM
Ah, looks like I had those new chip numbers backward. Yeah I'd pay down for even a handful of their engineering samples but they aren't going to get anything from us without delivering sample chips first.

I'd refine that to samples of production units versus samples of a test run. Cuz' a whole bunch of stuff could change as a result of test chip testing.

Also... looks like our robot should be delivered today.

Finally, the saga might be over.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for ya'.
249  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion on: August 31, 2015, 05:29:02 PM
The A1 (as seen in Bitmine and LK Dragons and stuff) was an Innosilicon chip. The A2 (Terminators) was Innosilicon's scrypt offering. If I'm understanding right, they're working on an A3 (sha256) and A4 (scrypt) right now.

Last we talked to them, they apparently had sample chips taped out (probably a short batch of engineering samples) but didn't really care to pass any out. They were more interesed in million-dollar customers tossing down on big batches. I don't know why anyone would lay down on a big batch without first getting samples.

Avalon didn't reply to the last couple emails I sent them but I'll try again. Earlier this year I inquired about chips and they said they'd have a new generation out around July (this was at the same time Bitmain told me they'd have a new chip in June). When I got back to them closer to July I was told the target was moved back to September. Being as September starts tomorrow it'd be nice to know if they pulled it off.

Bitmain says if they come up with some extra chips in the next couple weeks they'll let me know.

We have an incoming $3500 payment from a customer coming in.
I have ear marked this money to buy a small quantity (~1K) of chips from BM, assuming they decide to sell some.
Having said that, I'm a slut, if any other chip supplier has a suitable chip for sale prior to that they'll get the $3500 (first come first served).
Whomever's chips will be shipped to GS (with their approval ofc) for insertion onto hash boards.
We assume that a certain number of chips would be destroyed n the development process.

Once a suitable design is manufactured and field proven we'd be up for a real quantity purchase of chips (and then boards, ofc).

And regarding capex equipment purchases, I've had my eye on a CNC router for more than a year.
Something that will route polycarbonate and thin sheet AL for immersion tank construction.

Made a corporate decision a while back that we're done buying equipment that has a programmed obsolescence (S(odd) and C1).
I'm sick and tired of replacing perfectly good equipment every 6 months - a year solely due to fixed a Vcore which caps the maximum efficiency of the gear.
Screw that.
And yeah I know I could rip apart miners, mod the hash boards (at least to some extent) and get better efficiency. That's a doable option on 1-5 machines but not on 50+.

It is my belief that even the venerable S1, had it been designed with a reasonable lifespan in mind, could be profitable to operate in today's environment given an adjustable Vcore and clock. But it wasn't and neither was any of the BM follow on products. I believe this was part of a designed marketing campaign to continue to sell "new" equipment. Smart practice for miner manufacturer's but not very good for the 200Th/s and down crowd. As such, we're committed to purchasing/building equipment that will "stand the test of time" versus a throw-away mentality.

GS's designs embody this thought process and consequently we will opt to buy their product(s) over a competitor's.

Phil - I am very curious to hear, when your S7's come in, whether one can adjust Vcore and if so by how much.
250  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion on: August 31, 2015, 04:30:10 PM
If not from Bitmain, maybe Canaan-Creative or InnoSilicon. Someone's gotta take care of the 99%, right?

You know, when I was asking about 1384 they asked me if I'd rather not buy a bunch of discounted U3 and take chips off them instead - until I reminded them that the U3 had 1382 on it and that wouldn't do me any good.

Well, you could buy 20 odd A3222's (the 25GH/s 0.4-0.6J/Gh things) off avalon themselves for 0.72btc. now, unless they are lying about having 9 stacks of 20 chips for sale at their store..
unless you're waiting for their new-bute hot out of the silicon oven chips (which i haven kept up with whats in r&d since the a3222 release earlier this year)?

as for InnoSilicon, isn't the A1, A2 and the upcoming A3 all S-crypt? what is this "A1 CoinCraft"? am i missing something?

little googling found out the Coincraft A1/A1 Booster is bitmines re-branded chip from innosilicon, but going by their site, A1 is a S-Crypt ASIC. so what is the A3 going to cover?

The A3 is Scrypt, the A4 is SHA-256.
The have a prototype run of both and are looking for vaporware funding (a pre-buy in bulk qty's) for a tapeout of production units.
I know cuz' we asked, but I'm NOT going to dump a ton of cash to fund their dev effort (shades of BFL).
If we're going to dump a ton of cash on an endeavor like that it'll be our own dev or community dev effort.
251  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion on: August 31, 2015, 04:22:11 PM
Well their chip release post over one week ago said they would be accepting orders for the chips soon, iirc?

But now sidehack posted a message with them clearly stating "NO SHIP FOR YOU BUY S7s" >.>

GS is not alone, we got the same BS response (more than once) when we inquired about buying industrial quantities of chips.

Like being told to buy a new car when all one needs is a set of spark plugs.
252  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion on: August 30, 2015, 04:27:41 PM
"... PlanetCrypto is a somewhat industrial customer, ..."

With the nonavailability of affordable efficient hardware, something with "legs", we are becoming less "industrial" with every difficulty increase. If the trend that the community has experienced over the last six months continues we will be out of the game, so to speak. It is in our best interests, as a company, to promote and assist in anyway possible GS et. al. Simply put, it's a matter of survival for the BTC mining department/division of our organization.

I ran the ROI calculations on the new S7, and for us, it ROI's in early May of 2016. By the time the block reward drops to 1/2 an S7 exhibits $200-$300 net retained earnings on a roughly $2000 investment. That's crap. Effectively amounting to ~10% APR. There are other divisions of this entity that could use that same capital investment and return much higher retained earnings over the same period (Solar farming, VPN, Public Electrical Vehicle charging network, etc . . .).

To distill it down to it's simplest, if one or more chip manufacturers does not sell state-of-the-art chips for inclusion in a GS hash board (whatever that may be) we will be forced to shutdown our BTC mining operations and pursue other profits centers.

I work under moral, ethical, and contractual obligations to run this entity in the most profitable manner.
Sorry guys/gals, but we do it to show a profit for our shareholders and not for altruistic reasons.
I can absolutely guarantee that if/when profitable BTC mining becomes impossible, I'll shut it down in a New York nanosecond.
Till then I'll investigate any avenue that permits this division to continue operations.
Right now, as of today, this instant, I believe our best shot is to obtain some chips from either Innosilicon or BM1385's and have GS manufacture hash boards.
The next best "best shot" is to pursue fabricating our own chip(s) or mother a community effort to the same ends.

The S7 is NOT a viable option for us and our operations.
And at ~$2000 each we will likely not buy one, even for testing, favoring to spend that capital elsewhere.

What I'd like to see/buy is a retro fit S(odd) physically sized board, USB interface, that is voltage and clock adjustable, and has current monitoring at either the chip, string, or board level. That hashes somewhere in the .05W/GH/s to .3W/GH/s range.
253  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion on: August 28, 2015, 04:00:51 AM
If you want to build a waterblock setup for a $40 miner, sure. I'll be playing with some CPU coolers to see what the various clearance requirements are. Screwed down would be better than the crappy little snap-ons (I've never liked those). I'm still at the very beginning of the electricals and haven't really thought about starting on mechanicals so I'm not at all sure what's possible yet. I just know what I want to do.

And I don't really want to build a socketed chipboard.

Or one could build an appropriately dimensioned tank and dunk a buttload of'em in Novec 7100.
254  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion on: August 27, 2015, 01:02:23 PM
PlanetCrypto, thank you so very much for the detailed answer. It is as I suspected, and I appreciate your thoughts. Nice set up, if you come across any pictures, I'd love to see one installation. I'll check out the links later.

You're right, I would MUCH prefer a C1 instead of the S3+, but I don't think it makes any sense to chase down a cheap one now and throw MORE money into BTC mining. If one came my way, fine, but I don't want to chase for it.

That said, I'm enjoying this little project, and would consider buying whatever comes from the mind of sidehack and Novak to upgrade the S3+. Sidehack and I don't agree on economics and what constitutes profit, but I like how he works and want to support the effort.

Profit is a nebulous term. What I pay attention to is retained earnings.

North Lakes Auto

These and more images may be found @ http://

255  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion on: August 26, 2015, 06:43:25 PM

Does anyone have a suggestion as to a link comparing electric heat to miners?

To the best of my knowledge there isn't one.

I have electric heat, and I would have to think that since 99.9% of the energy used in a miner is expressed as heat, they would be nearly as efficient as baseboard heaters. Minus the fan, commo, et cetera.

This isn't to say that they can't use more energy as a minimum than I would otherwise use from baseboard heaters, I'm trying to decide whether to keep my last S3+ and use it for heat, come October or so.

Per the physics laws of the conservation of energy, the only energy that does not get converted to heat in a miner is the energy used to light the LED's.
Everything else gets converted to heat, at a rate of ~3.15 BTU per watt.
So an overclocked S3 ends up being a ~1200 - ~1300 BTU heater.
A C1 that uses 4 S3 hash boards dissipates about ~2500 BTU per unit.

We have 5 installations that use BM C1's for comfort heat (my own home included) typically the coolant flow from the C1's is manifolded and pumped (w/ Taco hydronic infloor circulators) through PEX tubing as in floor heat.
Last winter all the installations heated the respective buildings at a profit. Most ROI'ed the hardware cost.

A couple of the installations use "off peak" or "Dual Fuel" priced electricity ($0.0465 KWh and $0.08 KWh respectively) this would make an S3 or a C1 profitable given the current network difficulty and price of BTC.
Worst case scenario given the above, is it might cost you a few penny's per day to run them. But certainly cheaper than resistive baseboard heat where there is no compensation to offset the electrical cost.

We are actually working on building a replacement 2 phase immersion cooled solid state hot water boiler. Targeted for the residential comfort heating market/industry. A prototype may be viewed here: Which BTW is using 2 S3 hash boards. Our YouTube channel is located here:

As a standalone unit, we like the C1's versus the S3's as they make less noise during operation.

Stated simply, I live in Minnesota and heated my home at a profit last winter.
I anticipate doing this again this autumn/winter/spring.
I currently have 2 C1's running in the living room.

If I were you (and I'm not) I'd keep the S3's, strategically place them around the house as needed, and run them in lieu of the baseboard heat. I would probably electrically disconnect the baseboard heaters, wire in outlets, and plug the miner(s) into those outlets.

Hope this helps.
256  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion on: August 25, 2015, 10:31:00 PM
Get ready to buy some good, non-metalic heatsink paste.

257  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion on: August 25, 2015, 10:27:56 PM
(I'm kinda leaning on PlanetCrypto to pull that off), probably after the S7 is in the wild, it shouldn't take long to accomplish something.

I have money/BTC in hand "he who shall not be named" won't take it.

Sandwiches sound good, Jimmy Johns it is then.
258  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion on: August 25, 2015, 06:45:59 PM
I think it's more a hint to me that I need to get off my butt and build him some boards because he's gonna want a bunch of 'em.

No pressure as you really can't do squat (almost literally  Grin) until "the one who shall remain nameless" gets off their respective bums and sells chips.

Have a really good handle on what it's like to be a mushroom (kept in the dark and feed crap).

What a name for a company, Mushroom Development, LLC.  Shocked

259  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion on: August 25, 2015, 03:16:40 PM
I've got 10 S1's, 12 S3's, 22 C1's and they all need to be upgraded.
Hint hint.
260  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion on: August 23, 2015, 02:49:12 PM
Wow, that datasheet is a heck of a lot better than they've put out before! I really like that the protocol is detailed.


Regarding the pinout and such, they did implement a lot of the stuff that's been mentioned in this thread.

Good, it's about time a manufacturer started paying attention to the intelligence available in the community at large.

Given this chip's been in development for months I'd say they beat us to the punch, but that doesn't mean I don't like it.

It's still a 28nm product, a 28nm process with some maturing improvements, but never the less it's old tech.
Of conspicuous notice is the last revision date (upper left hand corner of every page) of 8/20/2015. As of this writing that's a mere 9 days ago.
The datasheet has the kind of info S/W guys will like, but leaves the H/W guys guessing a bit.
Looks like they listened to sidehack et. al.'s comment/desire to bring the power in on one side and GRND on the pad (application of common sense).

Do I like it? Yup.
Can I get it? NOPE!.

My position remains: The bestest coolest tech in the world ain't worth the powder to blow it to hell if I can't buy it.
As such, releasing the datasheet is relegated to hyping their design for a complete miner (of which the profit margins are higher than chip sales) versus actually providing the community with a usable, reliably available, power consumption competitive raw component.

They released just enough info to get us talking about it, versus us talking about Innosilicon's 14nm chip, a community based dev effort, or something else.
This boils down to marketing BS nothing more.
It's commonly known that any press is better than no press, as such I'll have no further public comment about their "new" chip and/or S7.
Sell me 1K chips at a reasonable price and I'll change my tune.

HAMLET [Re-enter Players with recorders]
O, the recorders! let me see one. To withdraw with you: -- why do you go about to recover the wind of me, as if you would drive me into a toil?

O, my lord, if my duty be too bold, my love is too unmannerly.

I do not well understand that. Will you play upon this pipe?

My lord, I cannot.

I pray you.

Believe me, I cannot.

I do beseech you.

I know no touch of it, my lord.

Why, look you now, how unworthy a thing you make of me!
You would play upon me,
You would seem to know my stops,
You would pluck out the heart of my mystery,
You would sound me from my lowest note to the top of my compass;
and there is much music, excellent voice, in this little organ, yet cannot you make it speak.
'Sblood, do you think I am easier to be played on than a pipe?
Call me what instrument you will, though you can fret me, yet you cannot play upon me.

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