Bitcoin Forum
May 18, 2021, 02:58:01 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 0.21.1 [Torrent]
  Home Help Search Login Register More  
  Show Posts
Pages: [1]
1  Bitcoin / Project Development / [PROPOSAL] bitshop -- a p2p online auction system on: July 10, 2011, 06:15:50 AM
By now, bitcoin is more subject to financial speculation than to anything else, it seems ... except maybe being a source of new ideas on a new field. Here is another one:

When eBay relates to PayPal, what relates to bitcoin in a similar fashion? A p2p online auction system would. Actually, to implement a p2p auctioninq/selling system (say 'bitshop', to have a working title), there are some similar problems arising when creating a p2p money transaction system. Bitshop could make use from the solutions bitcoin used for its design.

Similar tasks would be to create a timestamp (using the proof-of-work method) to determine which bid will be recognized as the final one. Another one would be to apply asymetrical cryptography keys to maintain a sellers ranking (to rate a sellers performance, the buyer has to sign the transaction -- including the rating -- with her/his keypair). This is similar to the bitcoin wallet. Other needed tasks, like p2p searches and caching of sales information (pictures, product texts), are well researched and can be easily adapted from other p2p software.

Other positive side effects of bitshop would be:
- with a rich user interface, one never again would have to wait for a slow eBay website page to build up.
- no ecological questionable server farms needed any more just to host the transaction system and to exchange a lot of unnecessary data (such as advertisments).

I would see bitshop as a sibling applicaion to bitcoin quite like eBay and PayPal as still http(s)-based web services are. I think, the latter two are dinosaurs. Let's bury them! Bitcoin doesn't have to earn  the respect of online selling platforms in a long and painful process. Bitcoins design, implemented in a selling software, could easily challenge them.
2  Economy / Economics / Re: Deflation and Bitcoin, the last word on this forum on: July 07, 2011, 03:14:01 AM
Not investing has two big benefit for hoarders: No risk to lose the invested money. No work involved to care about how the money is used.
Right, but that works the same whether the currency inflates or deflates.
Wrong, if you expect that your tresure keeps growing in value, there is no point in investing it and use it like state currencies are being used. This is of course only true till the bubble bursts. If this happens, acceptance of bitcoin will be hurt badly. An inflation mechanism (something beyond the regular ever decreasing mining rate) could help buffer the effect.

The whole amount of gold reserves on earth is 100.000 tons. It would have the volume of a ~20x20x20m cube. That's all, with rather negligable additions to it, compared to world economy. This is the model bitcoin tries to emulate. Only that bitcoin is yet a ~10x10x10m cube and people are still in a gold rush.

But I start to repeat myself. If I didn't make my point by now, I won't be able to explain better in the future.
3  Economy / Economics / Re: Deflation and Bitcoin, the last word on this forum on: July 06, 2011, 04:24:58 PM
Without inflation, people don't invest.
That's simply incorrect. Inflation neither incentivizes nor disincentivizes investment.

Hmm. I think we live on different planets then.

Not investing has two big benefit for hoarders: No risk to lose the invested money. No work involved to care about how the money is used.
4  Economy / Economics / Re: Deflation and Bitcoin, the last word on this forum on: July 06, 2011, 06:27:58 AM
MtRev: Agreed. But you just addressed the both values bitcoin currently possesses: the conceptual one for nerds and the one for speculators -- maybe both of them multiplied to explain the impact. How and if it's going to lift off depends on decisions made by the community (or on behalf of the community by the development team). Evolution does not care about the feelings of some speculators and miners. Question remains: How do we make more of it?

PS/OT: Google & p2p? You are kidding!
5  Economy / Economics / Re: Deflation and Bitcoin, the last word on this forum on: July 06, 2011, 05:46:30 AM
My point: Bitcoin is rather subject to speculation than being anything else -- speculation in the possibility that it can be a major money transfer system in the future trusted by millions of people, in which case your hoarded BTCs will sky-rocket. That is the only value bitcoin is built upon right now (apart from the nerdy fun of the whole concept). The question is: how can it become a major money transfer system, or in other words: a currency? If it fails in doing so, your coins are lost (on the long run -- but defenitely before you are dead). I was going to point out that it lacks a mechanism that supports sane inflation.

Let me ask back: Looking at any well working currency system on the world, why is it that it's seems not possible to afford not to imply a decent inflation rate?

To help you understand: What would you do, if you knew, 10% of the bitcoins in your wallet would vanish each year and you are not able to use rate changes to speculate & compensate because the rates are stable? You would rather spend your bitcoins than seeing it vaporize, wouldn't you? Maybe in operations to get more bitcoins back than you have spent. So only your spending and working with the money avoids the economy from depression, because you create use value, so wealth in the society is maintained. Of course, it's better to increase the overall amount of money (thus equalizing the difference between hoarders and exchangers) rather than to take away money from hoarders. Inflation is an incentive to work, not to hoard. And work holds society together. Get the picture?
6  Economy / Economics / Re: Deflation and Bitcoin, the last word on this forum on: July 06, 2011, 04:36:20 AM
In my opinion, the point Andrew Vorobyov brought in, cannot be overemphasized: Without inflation, people don't invest. Bitcoin isn't really the electronic version of cash money. It rather is a kind of electronic gold (as the term 'mining' for the money creation process suggests). Indeed it could be a very good means of exchange, but as a replacement for a 'currency', it lacks an inflation mechanism.

I know, by now you probably are about to reply with the usual 'but inflation is bad' / 'you are wrong here' / 'just don't use bitcoin' / 'you misunderstood bitcoin' / 'go away, evil Keynesian thug' phrases -- or just ignore me. But don't get me wrong: I am quite enthusiastic about the idea behind bitcoin, the decentralized architecture and so. But right now, bitcoin merely makes a good gold substitute: people are eager to speculate with it, hoard it, but spending it for real goods and services seems to be a miniscule application of the system despite the obvious benefits. So why is that?

If bitcoin is ever to replace real currency, it needs to implement an inflation mechanism beyond the one currently implemented to reward the creation of new blocks: It has to be one that distributes new coins more equally around the peers than with the current algorithm which just prefers users with mining rigs. Maybe a combination of CPU/GPU/FPU power and another sparse resource like IPv4 addresses. As a side effect, the acceptance of the new currency can be further enhanced.

Without an inflation mechanism, bitcoin is doomed to stay in the bubble state, waiting to burst and see $/-Exchange rates that will only stabilize at rates where idealists like me are still willing to trade real goods for it. Only exchange for goods can stabilize the exchange rates. And goods will only be produced, if investments in their production is more profitable than hoarding. A bitcoin v0.4, or maybe rename it to bitfiat or so, could initially be coupled to bitcoin v0.3 somehow to inherit the trust it earned and -- just like the national currencies -- liberate itself from its hoarding roots and develop its exchange value to the fullest.

I'm well aware that I'm posting in a forum that is dominated by miners and speculators and so I really can understand the reluctance to depart from the deflation model that is so accessible to the common sense. Maybe it's inevitable in this early stage to just focus on the creation of trust. But for the sake of bitcoin's full potential, I hope the community finds a way to let it evolve before the burst without losing trust in bitcoin because of the patch. Smooth inflation by algorithm is really better than by a bursting bubble which would leave bitcoin to live a niche existence among other projects.

One scenario I can imagine is: There will be a bunch of forks soon, which resemble state currencies and rely on bitcoin as 'gold'. They can be exchanged for one another with different rates depending on the 'fiscal politics' of the respective group (which will be connected to strategies to get p2p emoney into the production process). Divide and rule...

Anyhow, trying to ban questions that address social sciences from the forum, I think, is a tactics with limited range.
7  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: What's your Mhash/s? (Pissing contest here) on: July 01, 2011, 05:56:37 PM
1.4 Mh on a AMD Phenom x4 CPU running Windows in 'power saver' power plan.  Smiley
8  Other / Beginners & Help / screensaver miner & changing the Windows 'power plan' to power saver when active on: July 01, 2011, 05:53:24 PM
Currently, I only got a CPU miner at work on my quad core, just symbolic thing.

I love the screensaver version of the rpc-miner. Only thing is, as I have enabled the AMD cool&quite feature, it will double the cpu clock and burn another 50 watts or so when the screensaver starts. I don't want to afford extra energy beyond what my computer uses for normal operation. So I wondered: is there an easy way to switch the energy scheme from balanced to power saver when the scrensaver activates and back to balanced when it deactivates?
9  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: ATI Radeon 5770 Single Slot on: July 01, 2011, 05:41:34 PM
Good news. I also have ordered a 5770...
10  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Introduce yourself :) on: July 01, 2011, 02:43:50 PM
Hi there!

I'm from Germany and running two websites which I recently updated to allow for bitcoin transfers. and

I had problems with spammers as well, fixed it by restricting new users that have a Chinese IP address. The geoip library was my salvation.
11  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Whitelist Requests (Want out of here?) on: July 01, 2011, 02:35:47 PM
Can you please mark the newbie status somewhere on the page that is impossible to miss? I tried for hours reading the help files and posting rules (laughing about the freedom of speech rule), trying to re-confirm my account, then again waiting another day. You could also note the restriction in your confirmation mail. Wait... I just can't find a confirmation mail... could it be I never received one? And you wonder why there is so much spam?
Pages: [1]
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!