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1  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [HP] Monetization discussion on: May 01, 2014, 12:43:22 AM
A premine is a little different for these coins. Assuming they're keeping the emission curve similar to the other coins using this . . even a 1% premine will be a massive overhang to this.

MRO has been around for about two weeks now, and 1% of the currency is 184k. Of the roughly 300k or so in circulation . . I hope you can see the major difference here.

Generally with bitcoin protocol, your premine is offset with a corresponding instamine, so within a week or two the people using the coin have around as much as the premine.

That's not the case here, because even taking a 5% premine would mean that it would take about a month and a half before people hold as much as that premine.

I still think it's an interesting idea to keep the devs with long term income because it sets the precedent that people can work for the coin and make a legitimate living, but don't really see a great way to make it happen.

The tx donation idea is probably your best possibility, so as to not centralize all the miners into a 0% donation pool.
2  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][HP]HoneyPenny[ANONYMITY&UNLINKABILITY|PoW-BCHAIN-BASED|NO-IPO/NO-PREMINE] on: April 25, 2014, 08:26:25 PM
Can we have a time for the release date please?
3  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - an anonymous coin based on CryptoNote technology on: April 24, 2014, 04:44:23 PM
You have crappy hardware, you deserve to suck.
You have a crappy job, you deserve to suck.
Sound way too much like social darwinism to me. I don't believe crypto should follow the "rich get richer" scheme. On top of hurting most people sense of justice (and some animals too, experiment have been done on this, Economic inequality does more harm than good). I am in for the society, not just for my petty wallet. I refuse to accept as a fact that crypto must leave behind poor people.

Thoughts like this, misinterpreted, are the very face of evil. Without an incentive to prosper, what means do I have by which I would ever share you my thoughts?

It's not that you have crappy hardware, it's that you purchased the very best your money could afford. You are rewarded accordingly.

It's not that you have a crappy job, but that that is the best job your mind is suited to -- based on your own capability. Again, you are rewarded accordingly.

The situation you are in is reliant on you in this scheme, not that society dictated that you deserve them. That is the world I see with cryptocurrencies.

By your stated logic, you fail to understand that money is just a tool that we have all agreed on to be the very representation that you have done work. Because you have less of it does not mean that you should have more of it. I'll not have that logic. Because your mind is capable of being in control of more of it, is the reason you should have more of it.

In this sense, any monetary system will leave behind those that do not wish to contribute . . not those that do not have a wallet of a certain size.

Are you on par with this logic, or will I be expecting you to raise questions of income redistribution next? The article you quoted explains that when the gap becomes too large, there are problems. Not that a gap exists at all.

4  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - an anonymous coin based on CryptoNote technology on: April 24, 2014, 03:01:31 PM
I generally agree with smooth. I just dont want another fork. I am starting getting bored of cryptos dividing themselves all the time...

please, find a solution Cheesy

This seems as if we've uncovered something that risks both seriously damaging this coin, and quite possibly creating a fork for no real reason.

Rather than debate amongst just ourselves, why doesn't someone introduce this coin to CN on their forum like I've seen asked many times in the last week?

Following that, perhaps they will be able to help us mold the wheat and chessboard problem into a stretched exponential that more closely matches the bitcoin growth trajectory?

It's clearly not as simple as "change an 18 to a 20 or 21", this requires a pretty detailed analysis that's going to demand more than data tables and 20 hours . . and very likely the experience that naturally came with having discussed this many times over the last two years will be an invaluable insight.

I do have to admit ... choosing Bitcoin's exact path as your desired goal may prove to be an arbitrary choice, as it's not really bounded by natural laws . . but if you're willing to accept that that emission is natural and the correct way a cryptocurrency in 2014+ should progress then by all means make the choice.

I have full confidence in both the intelligence and competence of the present group, that we can avoid a total fork and come out better as a whole. So, please, someone show me that you've at least mentioned this to CN?
5  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - an anonymous coin based on CryptoNote technology on: April 24, 2014, 11:23:15 AM
So in trying to make an informed decision, regardless of how the vote comes to pass, I would find it tough to do so right now.

One of you is saying that there was no mistake in the emission formula, while the other is. I'm not asking which I should believe . . I'm asking for a way to verify this -- or at least one that doesn't rely on me just resting my personal opinion on either of you.

How can I get started on understanding the emission curve?

The quote I posted "close to Bitcoin's original curve" is from the original announcement here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=563821.0

I think there was also some discussion on the thread about it being desirable to do that.

At one point in that discussion, I suggested increasing the denominator by a factor of 4, which is what ended up being done, but I also suggested retaining the block target at 2 minutes, which was not done. The effect of making one change without the other is to double the emission rate from something close to bitcoin to something much faster (see chart a few pages back on this thread).


Yes, I see that sticking "close to BTC original curve" is the aim, and can make my own decision on whether or not which level of adhesion to that is desirable. I was wondering how to mathematically and graphically verify both claims . . and was looking for a way to measure.

For all I know right now, none of the emission comes close to anything BTC ever was . . so I've decided to construct a model of both emissions using my computer . . so that I may visually observe predicted emission%/time.

This is a very engaging discussion, you both make very valid points, and it's hard not to be torn in an instance like this. With TFT's claim that there was no mistake and yours that there is, I've no choice but to make graphs.
6  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - an anonymous coin based on CryptoNote technology on: April 24, 2014, 10:57:02 AM
So in trying to make an informed decision, regardless of how the vote comes to pass, I would find it tough to do so right now.

One of you is saying that there was no mistake in the emission formula, while the other is. I'm not asking which I should believe . . I'm asking for a way to verify this -- or at least one that doesn't rely on me just resting my personal opinion on either of you.

How can I get started on understanding the emission curve?
7  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - an anonymous coin based on CryptoNote technology on: April 24, 2014, 01:51:27 AM
I think this would set a strange trend for setting debasement in the currency

It's not debasement. Debasement is issuing more coins, making existing coins worth less. The proposed bug fix is essentially a reverse stock split where every two old coins are exchanged for one new coin.

The extra coins being combined into one coin are coins you should not have received under the "close to Bitcoin's original curve" schedule that was advertised. To argue that bugs can't be fixed is absurd.

If there were a bug that gave some people a million extra coins for no reason in bitcoin or any other coin, you can bet there would be a fix to remove those coins.

As you say, this is all an experiment. If people abandon the coin in droves because of the reverse split, then that will be a useful experiment and we can all get on with our lives with some other coin. Most of us believe that the value of a coin with the cryptonote feature set, no-premine, no-instamine, no-tax, and a bitcoin-like reward schedule is compelling. We'll see if that turns out to be correct.





Yes, debasement is devaluing the current value (Something that occurs when issuing more coins). As trades have already occurred at a certain price . . eliminating half of the coins will only serve to raise the value of the currency from what it was yesterday. That is quite the opposite of debasement is what I was getting at . . sorry if I was unclear.

In setting a trend for debasement by establishing minimum block rewards, this is a strange start. All I'm saying. Not that it's a terrible one, and certainly not that this is debasement.

I understand the bug, and completely agree that it should be fixed. I will also be choosing to stick with this coin because of the bold move being taken. You guys seem to know what you do very well, and that's worth quite a lot.
8  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [ANN][MRO] Monero - an anonymous coin based on CryptoNote technology on: April 24, 2014, 01:32:39 AM
+1 for halving all coins in circulation. Would they completely disappear? What would the process be?

It's not even been a week. Nothing is lost, besides a couple of auctions. Continuing on a path that would provide an excessive emission is far more detrimental than causing some level of discomfort with the small group involved right now.

End of the day, if you're here now and have been here . . you're still an early adopter.

I think this would set a strange trend for setting debasement in the currency . . but at this point we're all just a group of people who ran a hash function for a week . . not part of some game-changing currency.

Give it a shot and if it all goes to hell make a new fork.
9  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin adoption slowing; Coinbase + Bitpay is enough to make Bitcoin a fiat on: April 23, 2014, 08:39:33 PM
I don't think we will get to that, because I think humans will adjust their thinking as events worsen. But perhaps I am underestimating how engrained the mindset is that believes in government.

If we say gigadeaths, most people would dismiss us as kooks.

In any case, the features we need in a better crypto-currency have far reaching synergies in positive ways such as micro payments and fostering new paradigms in knowledge and social interaction on the internet.

So we don't need such a dire scenario of Armageddon, in order to drive a desire for a better crypto-currency than Bitcoin.

How powerful a scenario will be needed in order to counter the pervasive nature of the reality that's generally accepted today...

To what extent can any knowledge paradigm be introduced that can counter the pretty lights and repeating patterns and alluring whispers? How can 100s of millions of people come to accept, within any measurable amount of time within their own lifetime, that most of what they've come to accept as knowing or caring about within that frame of time is incorrect? How can I convince Erich that his fascination with Call of Duty is completely meaningless, and he should instead learn about finance like he said he wanted? How do I tell Erica that she should probably have gone to nursing school instead of marrying that wifebeater that she ended up with? These people have left society in pursuit of completely useless efforts, and instead chose to live as simpler animals. How can one hope to reason that that's incorrect? I've yet to be shown that the faith in humane efforts can go that far . . as I'm not convinced that they are physically capable of going that far.

Think about it . . with IQ tests, multi-tiered verification of intelligence through Associate's, Bachelor's, Masters, Phd's, tens of thousands of further tiered certifications . . it's impossible to refute that there's a distinctive bell curve present in human capacity and desire for knowledge. With the appearance of such a curve . . one so perfectly conforming to probability . . how can this go any further . . when that very appearance of the bell implies that the potential is maximized? There used to be a very low bar for everyone to pass. What we have now may very well be the extent of what humanity can manifest . . knowledge wise. There's just no more juice. That's not to say that the pursuit of knowledge is dead, only that it's pursuit by the majority of the population is exhausted. The majority of what we're left with is debt farms.

With television, video games, endless supplies of pornography, limitless troughs of food of infinite varieties, consumer culture, and an otherwise bottomless supply of past-times . . what shift in paradigm could possibly be manifested that would foster a particular interest for integration, differentiation, chemistry, physics, programming languages, manufacturing processes, computer architecture, astronomy, creation of art, cryptocurrencies, conceptual drawing, or pursuit of other true knowledge?

Underestimating? I fear most that hive-mind is the mind, not the mindset . . that for the first time in history the hive is set to become the world rather than towns, states, countries combined. I also fear that I don't know whether or not that's something to fear at all.

Removing the Armageddon scenario from this situation requires an insurmountable force . . which may very well come to be the crypto-currency you mention. I know it's not Bitcoin, but all I can continue to do is keep reading until it decides to show itself . . or given infinite time I'll make it myself.
10  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][BMR] Bitmonero - a new coin based on CryptoNote technology - LAUNCHED on: April 23, 2014, 04:08:00 PM

Your information from that quote was outdated, Zerocash's proof size was reduced 98% to 288 bytes.

Good, thanks for the correction. Can you address the other points?

Specifically:

1. How can ZeroCash scale to a massive user base? Will it be able to address the latency issue in transaction propagation, or will it be severely limited to a userbase that is finite -- or one with no capability to handle microtransactions?

and

2. Please address the last issue in the paragraph, where the entire system may be compromised.
11  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][BMR] Bitmonero - a new coin based on CryptoNote technology - LAUNCHED on: April 23, 2014, 03:56:05 PM

From Adam Back's twitter, a cryptographer who is closely involved with Bitcoin, he said that privacy of Zerocash is stronger but has downside: https://twitter.com/adam3us/status/453459268881379328
Quote
zerocash each payment could be ANY user (full anonymity set); cryptonote it could be from small chosen set



If you link me one more link to citation to a single line response, our debate is over. I beg of you to learn how to form your own opinions and share them on facts brought in from linking to actual sources. One liners from twitter just don't do it for convincing people or winning debates.

There is no question as to which system is stronger anonymity-wise and I was not implying this. Our debate, is that of which system can be more successful, as you came here and said you will wait for the other coin. Of course, you are going to get a stronger anonymity set if you use every single person involved. But, there are significant downsides to this. For your reading pleasure:

12  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][BMR] Bitmonero - a new coin based on CryptoNote technology - LAUNCHED on: April 23, 2014, 02:53:39 PM
Since Cryptonote act like a decentralized mixing method, it only make transaction become harder to trace, not completely untraceable as OP claimed.

It's quite similar to Darkcoin which is self claimed to be anonymous currency, but privacy of both is not strong enough for people who crave for a comletely anonymous currency, like myself.

Cryptonote is cool but i think i'll wait till May/June for Zerocash realease.

You completely left out ring signatures, and the public and private one-use keys in your understanding. Please re-read those sections of the source, and then re-explain yourself.
13  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][BMR] Bitmonero - a new coin based on CryptoNote technology - LAUNCHED on: April 22, 2014, 03:36:55 PM

Comkort exchange is working now on BCN integration. Let's vote for Bitmonero integration also!

https://comkort.com/vote

Nice. Also just sending .1525 BTC would put it at the top of the list. That's about a $76 listing fee . . which is very cheap considering they list it for free otherwise (by just waiting and getting votes).

Hey while you're here . . are you planning on submitting your coin to CryptoNote? HoneyPenny already did and got a response, so I'm just wondering if you plan on doing this?
14  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][HP] HoneyPenny [ANONYMITY and UNLINKABILITY, HASH-ON-BLOCKCHAIN] on: April 22, 2014, 02:10:36 PM
hmmmm .... darkcoin?

No, this is the HoneyPenny thread. Were you looking for DarkCoin? It's forum is here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.0

You can trade for DarkCoin here: https://www.cryptsy.com/markets/view/155

And their site forum is here: https://www.darkcointalk.org/

They have a very active and dedicated community that can help you with whatever questions you may have.
15  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][HP] HoneyPenny [ANONYMITY and UNLINKABILITY, HASH-ON-BLOCKCHAIN] on: April 22, 2014, 01:38:54 PM
It seems that we are the first who submitted project to Cryptonote:
https://forum.cryptonote.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=68


A more than reassuring example of your willingness to take a proactive stance in this fork. Thank you!
16  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][HP] HoneyPenny [anonymity and unlinkability] on: April 22, 2014, 12:01:32 AM

About 10%, will try to make it clear: You should know, that quality development is always requires a lot of effort and work part-time is unacceptable for any serious project.
And you've all seen how much forks was launched and abandoned later, for various reasons, but mainly because the developing became economically unfeasible.

We have developed this approach (and we believe it is honest and democratic) to declare  that we are going to work on this project for a long time.
This is our proof that the project will not be abandoned.
We just want to do things we like to do, and we want to earn some money with it. And we not not ashamed of this.


I think it's an interesting way to implement a way to keep you involved, and you should absolutely not be ashamed. I just hope that you will be willing and ready, when it comes time, to suggest a recommended percentage. It's no small responsibility, asking for taxes. It requires you to be honest with yourself and everyone . . or at least convince them you are.

What I'm saying is that by making the % changeable based on the miner's choice (this is the approach I'm assuming you're taking -- correct me if i'm wrong), you will need to provide them with definitions of what every percentage that isn't 0 or 10% according to what it means to you. I could only see this working if you're capable of asking for 3.56% tax, or 7.692% tax based on definitions we all come to agree on. No taxation without representation is what's coming to mind -- are you capable of defending your right to demand that which we have every right to refuse?

I've seen a similar approach in MemoryCoin 2. Are you familiar with that? The fact that freetrade manipulated votes and pretty much dropped the coin, in addition to it losing a lot of momentum, when he got voted out is what I'm worried about. What types of parallels/differences do you expect with your coin? I'm just curious is all.

Quote
Yes, we communicate with them. As long as our project is in active development now, they have not approve it yet, but they are familiar with our concept and address for royalty was generated by them. But, of course, it doesn't mean anything yet. It is up to CryptoNote.

Awesome! I hope they like and are capable of furthering your ideas!

Quote
We know what we do with the code. If you take a look, you'll see.

It's tough to track down differences in the original code with the way you brought into your github. As far as I can tell immediately all that was removed was one character, a "-". I see there's more, but it will take time to find the changes.

Quote
We've decided to use blockchain as scratchpad (with salt of course) coupled with fast version of cryptonote hash(or not) (reduced scratchpad to 130kb, and with reduced scratchpad we able to reduce iterations count). It is two-phase hashing - in first we make extra-fast hash to discover pseudo-random data addresses (indexes), and in second: we do actually hash with the salt based on first extra-fast hash. Since blockchain is always grows up we belive that it will be almost imposible to make effective ASIC. On the other hand, it will make mining process effective with complete node, so we killing two birds with one stone - make ASIC-resistant hash and gets more full nodes in network (even with pools).

Hope this is clear. If not - fill free to ask.

Sorry, I must have read that wrong the first time. I did not understand before, but it seems to make more sense now. It's still a little unclear, but I can understand better the source when you're ready.

Thanks for the responses, it's nice to see a pre-ann discussion full of more than "looks nice" or "can't wait for this one".



[/quote]
17  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: The Newbie Flood on: April 21, 2014, 01:57:47 PM
Good fucking plan guys.

Some people here regularly change their profiles because they like to be debated for the content of their words, not the content of their profiles.

Personally I find a lot of the debates here useless when people are able to respond to who they think I am, rather than reading my posts. FFS I go as far as changing the email to an address to which I own and have no way to recover the PW, and then changing the pw on the btctalk profile to something i would never remember (keyboard mash + copy + paste).

Clearly, there are accounts used for abusing this . . and bots as well. I'm assuming the site knows about the bots now because I'm entering captchas to send messages. It should be entering a captcha every time I post though until xx posts.

Anyways . . censoring people just because they don't have enough posts is not a legitimate way to measure now new they are to this forum.



you censor yourself changing names..

i disagree with plenty of people and have no need to hide.

your comment is clearly ridiculous nonsense lol

It's not for people like you, or anyone that else that's been here long enough to know better that I do this. I do it for that one in a thousand chance that one of these new profiles has a person behind it that's trying to make an informed decision. It's hard to make a real decision that's my own when I walk into a forum and have no way to avoid thinking "oh wow he's got such a long post dick, he must know a lot so I should read what he has to say" or "oh wow he's made a coin, he must know a lot so maybe I'll flock to that one".

Your identity doesn't matter to me. This is an opinion I've formed after being in forums for a long time. The best way to get your message across is always by cutting out who you are or who you were.

I also do it for myself because I don't need an ego to try and get my point across. Just a few thoughts and a medium through which to share them is all that's needed. If my point is still falling on deaf ears, then that only can force me to refine it so that it actually makes sense.

Using your ego as a crutch to get your point across is ridiculous nonsense lol. It's weak.
18  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: The Newbie Flood on: April 21, 2014, 01:03:49 PM
Good fucking plan guys.

Some people here regularly change their profiles because they like to be debated for the content of their words, not the content of their profiles.

Personally I find a lot of the debates here useless when people are able to respond to who they think I am, rather than reading my posts. FFS I go as far as changing the email to an address to which I own and have no way to recover the PW, and then changing the pw on the btctalk profile to something i would never remember (keyboard mash + copy + paste).

Clearly, there are accounts used for abusing this . . and bots as well. I'm assuming the site knows about the bots now because I'm entering captchas to send messages. It should be entering a captcha every time I post though until xx posts.

Anyways . . censoring people just because they don't have enough posts is not a legitimate way to measure now new they are to this forum.

19  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][BMR] Bitmonero - a new coin based on CryptoNote technology - LAUNCHED on: April 20, 2014, 07:21:17 PM
I am new to cryptocurrencies. Some of you are so familiar with the process that complicated steps are deemed simple to you. With that said I was able to download and mine bytecoin bcn. As of today I can not download bitmonero for windows. This I believe is  rush job attempting to be first to market and increase profit margin on very early knowledgeable adapters. There was no attempt to move forward cryptonote vision. No attempt to improve on the delivery or execution of bytecoin bcn.  If I can download and mine bcn and cant do the same for bitmonero, this I think implies poor execution. I use myself as a basis because I did not even know what a cmd line was until 3 weeks ago.


But what you're missing is that there are people here, including the developer, willing to help you on a daily basis. Perfect example is that there is an IRC channel designed to help you along with this thread so that you can be helped to solve your problems.

I'm willing to help as well, as I've had no issues and am using windows 7. If that sounds like your situation then I think I can be of help.

Do you need a link to the download file, or are you having problems with installation?

There was no 'immediate' need to move forward with CN vision. They are looking for people to fork the coin, thus it was forked. What do you think needs changed? If you have ideas then please share them, because the main way to move the 'vision' forward is in a dynamic environment . . not a static one for weeks.

Already, there was a change in the original source that was used because it acted the wrong way. This seems like the perfect example of how the 'vision' moves forward. The attempt is in the fact that every day you come back and more people are interested, and that it's still here and getting better. Not that someone figured out everything before you ever entered the picture. You can be a part of this so if you have ideas share them.
20  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][HP] HoneyPenny [anonymity and unlinkability] on: April 20, 2014, 05:41:35 PM
Will I be able to keep my HoneyPennies in my HoneyPot?

Sorry, had to get that out of the way. Seriously though why HoneyPennies? It's just awkward is all.

Also.. why are you asking for arbitrary taxes? 10% to yourselves is a bit much . . but that's not my main issue because you said it was changeable and can be turned off.

My main focus is the % you've set aside for CryptoNote. Have you contacted them about that? Do they want a royalty fee? I don't see you've posted on their forum, so I'm just wondering if you're in contact with them at all.

Another concern here is that you will be seemingly making significant changes to the source. Have you passed any of the proposed changes through them? It's stated very clearly on their forum that they're both looking for and willing to help new implementations of CN. It would be weird to offer them royalties for something they don't agree with.

Wouldn't reducing the scratchpad and required iterations open this hash wide for easy GPU and ASIC mining? That seems counter-intuitive to what CN wants from what I was reading. I'm a little unclear of how you plan on implementing the hash apart from the short description here, so I'm at a large disadvantage.

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