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1981  Economy / Securities / Re: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It on: July 15, 2013, 08:48:20 PM
Oh really?  Because anytime I have EVER heard of Bitcoin being presented to newcomers is "low transactions fees!", "virtually nothing compared to paypal", etc, etc..

When I was introduced to bitcoin, the pitch didn't even mention fees.  When I pitch bitcoin, I only talk about fees when asked.

That's you.  You think of the transaction fees go way up Bitcoin is going to still be as attractive?  You've lost your mind.  Transaction fees play a HUGE role.

Quote
Anyway, it seems you are claiming that Bitcoin has no value other than lower fees and will die without them.  Can you explain why decentralized control, potential privacy, and censorship resistance are not worth anything?


Okay now you're just talking nonsense.  I never said those other points are not worth anything.


You said it would die with higher fees.  In my opinion, those other features make bitcoin transactions worth MORE than fiat transactions.


Right, because the miners are more important than the people actually using the currency.   Roll Eyes

Which orifice did you pull that from?  I certainly didn't say it.

Quote
Come on, man.  You know as well as I do that that's not true.. nobody is going to want to use Bitcoin as a currency if they pay the same fees as banking, and ESPECIALLY if those fees are the same or more than Paypal. 

Except in the 30+ countries in the world that PayPal isn't allowed to service because of the overreach of the US Gov.
1982  Economy / Speculation / Re: Liquidity problem on: July 15, 2013, 08:45:31 PM

Bitcoin has uses besides trading Roll Eyes

Yes, I know. But this is more in theory than in practise.

So you admit your theory doesn't apply here in reality?
1983  Economy / Speculation / Re: Liquidity problem on: July 15, 2013, 08:36:37 PM

Its probably not going to reach 1T market cap in 3 years. However do you really think that every single person in the developed world invests aprx. $414 into XOM? Of course not. Don't even get me started on gold. Let me explain to you how things work. Rather than every single person investing $1k, a few rich guys invest 1000 times what the 'average' person would have to. Then, if you're lucky, they'll use use that 1000 times investment they just made as collateral to borrow money to invest another 1000 times more than what the 'average' person would have to. Then there's the whole idea that the market cap is partially 'missing' because it is being held by either wallets with either an unknown private key, or people that aren't spending/selling bitcoins at any given time.

It does not matter if few rich guys invest a lot or many poor guys invest little. It is true that many bitcoins were not in circulation since they were mined. But this does not change anything. If you bought btc last year and sold today at 10x price, this is just because guys who lost their opportunity last year give you their money. They do this because they think that next year some fools will give them 10x more. And this is not going to continue for long. The amount of fools who are ready to bring money into system saturates quickly.


Bitcoin has uses besides trading Roll Eyes
1984  Economy / Securities / Re: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It on: July 15, 2013, 08:34:31 PM
Oh really?  Because anytime I have EVER heard of Bitcoin being presented to newcomers is "low transactions fees!", "virtually nothing compared to paypal", etc, etc..

When I was introduced to bitcoin, the pitch didn't even mention fees.  When I pitch bitcoin, I only talk about fees when asked.

That's you.  You think of the transaction fees go way up Bitcoin is going to still be as attractive?  You've lost your mind.  Transaction fees play a HUGE role.

Quote
Anyway, it seems you are claiming that Bitcoin has no value other than lower fees and will die without them.  Can you explain why decentralized control, potential privacy, and censorship resistance are not worth anything?


Okay now you're just talking nonsense.  I never said those other points are not worth anything.

You said it would die with higher fees.  In my opinion, those other features make bitcoin transactions worth MORE than fiat transactions.
1985  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer - MtGoxUSD wall movement tracker - Hardcore on: July 15, 2013, 08:33:06 PM
I just wish it would slip down to 90 for me to rebuy and never care about btc/usd again. I didn't care for longtime and did quite well, then I visited this crap of a thread  Grin

You and everyone else who sold when everyone was high on bear farts a week ago.
1986  Economy / Securities / Re: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It on: July 15, 2013, 08:30:14 PM
Oh really?  Because anytime I have EVER heard of Bitcoin being presented to newcomers is "low transactions fees!", "virtually nothing compared to paypal", etc, etc..

When I was introduced to bitcoin, the pitch didn't even mention fees.  When I pitch bitcoin, I only talk about fees when asked.

Anyway, it seems you are claiming that Bitcoin has no value other than lower fees and will die without them.  Can you explain why decentralized control, potential privacy, and censorship resistance are not worth anything?
1987  Economy / Securities / Re: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It on: July 15, 2013, 08:26:15 PM
So let's say someone decided to mine a huge portion of the network, such as Friedcat does.  Then they get paid by someone who wants to destroy Bitcoin to deliberately slow their latency down so that they are able to solve blocks with a very minimal amount of transactions. 

You get a few people doing this, and it would destroy Bitcoin.

Much more creative than a 51% attack..

Who benefits from this sort of attack? If they have a reputation and fortune to potentially lose, would they risk a potential lawsuit by bitcoin owners, miners, businesses etc? The only entities that I could see doing something like this would be a government entity (potentially the BRIC countries) that decides bitcoin is too much competition for traditional banking and government controlled fiat.

If I was a rich asshole heavily invested in the banking industry, I could benefit..
Hell, maybe Satoshi bullied me in school and stole my lunch money.  I'm sure there's many reasons.  Terrorism even comes to mind.. what if I'm a kingpin meth distributor and Silkroad is interfering with my profits?  
I could go and on, so don't ever feel bulletproof based on the reason that the intent isn't there, because it very well could be..

If you were a rich asshole heavily invested in the banking industry, and you perceived bitcoin as a threat (unlikely) you would become much wealthier embracing the new technology rather than trying to stifle it.  But there I go assuming wealthy people know anything about history.
1988  Economy / Securities / Re: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It on: July 15, 2013, 08:23:28 PM
So let's say someone decided to mine a huge portion of the network, such as Friedcat does.  Then they get paid by someone who wants to destroy Bitcoin to deliberately slow their latency down so that they are able to solve blocks with a very minimal amount of transactions.  

You get a few people doing this, and it would destroy Bitcoin.

Much more creative than a 51% attack..

It would not destroy bitcoin.  It would drive up transaction fees until either not including them is too expensive or more honest miners come online.

driving up transaction fees could destroy Bitcoin as an alternate currency, seeing as how low transaction fees is supposed to be one of it's strongest points.

I don't see low transaction fees as among it's strongest features.  More important are decentralized control, potential privacy, and censorship resistance.  In fact these features provide the business case for paying more for transactions than with fiat based systems.  Lower fees are just a nicety of the current economics.
1989  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Pictures of your mining rigs! on: July 15, 2013, 08:21:16 PM
Quote
61 AM USB hashing away at roughly 23 GH/s Smiley

377 Mh/s each?

Are you OCing these babies? Temp control?

cheers,
kev

It was just variance.  Now that they have been running a while, the average is about 20.5 GH/s.

Is it even possible to OC these chicks? Maybe is someone can addres the bus of that thing trough USB and find out the clock speed/regulator...
23Gh and 20.5 is quite an high difference/


This is being discussed in another thread.
Well, sorry  Roll Eyes

TL;DR: only if you solder on a new oscillator, provide more power than standard USB, and keep good airflow on it
1990  Economy / Speculation / Re: Liquidity problem on: July 15, 2013, 08:18:04 PM
Right now, capitalization of bitcoins is $1B. If it continues to appreciate 10 times per year, its capitalization would reach $1T in 3 years. To reach this number, every single person in developed world would need to invest $1K into bitcoins.
false.

No investment is needed at all. Only the time preference for saving vs. dissaving has to change for the price to move. To give you an extreme example - if everybody stops selling bitcoin, the price is infinite. If nobody buys bitcoin, the price is zero. No funding needed. Please study price discovery mechanisms before you make conclusions like that.

Oh yes, money appear out from thin air. Don't you understand that if some miners or hoarders make X USD profit from selling bitcoins, this is just because other hoarders lose exactly the same amount?

Your statement is only true on the day bitcoin hits a value of 0.
1991  Economy / Securities / Re: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It on: July 15, 2013, 08:16:06 PM
So let's say someone decided to mine a huge portion of the network, such as Friedcat does.  Then they get paid by someone who wants to destroy Bitcoin to deliberately slow their latency down so that they are able to solve blocks with a very minimal amount of transactions. 

You get a few people doing this, and it would destroy Bitcoin.

Much more creative than a 51% attack..

It would not destroy bitcoin.  It would drive up transaction fees until either not including them is too expensive or more honest miners come online.
1992  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: 0.25 BTC Bounty - Show me a Mt Gox USD Withdrawal :) on: July 15, 2013, 08:06:58 PM
My situation:

I believe this cannot be just an inept management/support service - something fishy is definitely going on.


Yes.

I had a few wire withdrawals pending from late June (maybe 20th or 21st). After getting the "cut-and-paste" replies, and reading this story: http://www.thebitcoinchannel.com/archives/16164 I asked for the wires to be cancelled.

Of course within an hour or so they responded and the cash was back in my account. Just waited for dips in price and did my best to buy BTC cheap while selling some from bitstamp when it would rise. Overall spread wasn't too bad but it took quite a while to accomplish.

My wire requests were WEEKS old, and I made the cancel request over the weekend. They were able to give me my money back without even checking with their bank. I think when they say "pending", it means they take the funds out of your account and do NOTHING.

Electronic wire transfer offerings are a dime a dozen these days (some US examples below) no bank wants to keep an army of wire-room specialists if they can help it. When MtGox says "backlog", they might be referring to all the wires they haven't been able to send due to liquidity problems.

https://www.wellsfargo.com/com/treasury-management/payables/electronic/wire-transfers
http://www.comerica.com/commercial/treasury-management/payables-solutions/Pages/wire-transfer.aspx


There is a big difference between the technical requirements of sending funds and the regulatory requirements of sending funds.  Yes the first part is easy, but it is not the hard part.
1993  Economy / Speculation / Re: Liquidity problem on: July 15, 2013, 07:55:33 PM
Of course, everybody contributes different amount. This does not change the fact that bitcoins can not continue to appreciate 10 times every year longer than couple of years more. 


Do you mean to tell me the potential upside is no more than 10,000% (10X for 2 years)?  Bummer.  Here I was thinking I could make some money.
1994  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Pictures of your mining rigs! on: July 15, 2013, 07:28:01 PM
Quote
61 AM USB hashing away at roughly 23 GH/s Smiley

377 Mh/s each?

Are you OCing these babies? Temp control?

cheers,
kev

It was just variance.  Now that they have been running a while, the average is about 20.5 GH/s.
1995  Economy / Speculation / Re: How are you feeling this morning? on: July 15, 2013, 07:08:23 PM
I feel like someone rich is pumping.

Manipulated

It's the bears' turn to be in denial Tongue.... at least for the short term.
I don't think so.
Seeing 10kBTC market order in real time isn't a sign of denial.

No, but attributing it to "someone rich pumping" is.
1996  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer - MtGoxUSD wall movement tracker - Hardcore on: July 15, 2013, 07:02:11 PM

What the heck, look at these examples given:

Bear toss

noun: a new market term that describes an argument or action that directly affects the market price positively.

A successful bear toss this morning by a new ASIC developer brought bitcoin's market price up 20%.

Before leaving Wikileaks, Julian Assange made a failed attempt at a bear toss by claiming that the US government was supporting bitcoin.


I don't get the term "bear toss" though, as it should be "bull toss" but perhaps they missed...

Because the bears are trying to make a profit, but this guy tosses them out of the fucking park:
1997  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer - MtGoxUSD wall movement tracker - Hardcore on: July 15, 2013, 06:59:44 PM
No, we will escape when they lose patience and start to buy in.

You forgot the other option, which is holders get scared and start to sell out.

scared of what? Long term investment is bullish still, there is no reason to be scared.

Yep.  Most of the newbies have been spooked out already, and this ain't shit for us old hats.
1998  Economy / Speculation / Re: speculation on the when the price tops 200 on: July 15, 2013, 06:55:41 PM
I would say it's going to take another couple of years for another bubble to form.  However if some other country has another currency crisis, that could push it up at any time...but that is impossible to predict precisely.


The next bubble won't form until after we have passed the previous ATH.
1999  Economy / Speculation / Re: How are you feeling this morning? on: July 15, 2013, 06:54:13 PM
I feel like someone rich is pumping.

Manipulated

It's the bears' turn to be in denial Tongue.... at least for the short term.
2000  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: The damn Mining revenue formula? on: July 15, 2013, 06:47:17 AM
Expected payout is h*t*B/(D*2^32).

In this formula, h is hashrate, t is time, B is block reward, and D is difficulty.
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