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1  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: SolidCoin 3.0 (aka MicroCash) will have a daily fee for each address you have. on: May 13, 2012, 01:17:08 AM
This guy is clearly being paid minimal wage because he can't spare less a cent a day!  Cheesy
It's a matter of principle. Evaporating cryptocurrency isn't a match for non-evaporating real cash imo. I mean, in a system advertising itself as free from a central authority, having someone removing stuff from your wallet like the government directly debiting taxes from your account, or like e-gold slowing draining accounts when they went rogue, it's fairly discrediting I think...

Yes and transaction fees aren't evaporating your cryptocurrency savngs in Bitcoin I guess? Apparently in the future Bitcoin fees are the only way anyone will make money mining. It's something heavily discussed and criticized.


That is right. Transaction fees are not evaporating my cryptocurrency savings in Bitcoin. I have not transferred them, every single satoshi is still in my possession. That is because I am saving them, not spending them.

With Bitcoin there is no fixed transaction fee, miners can charge whatever they want. So if a miner charges you 100 BTC to send a transaction then you have to pay. Luke-jr is currently doing this with coiledcoin, so it's not a theoretical thing, it's actually happening. Anyone can mine but if you don't have enough power it could take you 5 years to mine a block and not be charged 100 BTC. So if your life savings are less than the transaction fee then it's essentially like losing your life savings if you ever wanted to actually spend them. This isn't true right now in Bitcoin,  but it could potentially happen because transaction fees in Bitcoin are not fixed.

If Bitcoin ever moves to the same protocol as MicroCash (which it probably needs to for performance reasons if its successful) then it will have to move to account fees also. Otherwise it could be spammed to death. So comparing two different protocols, they both have advantages and disadvantages. Obviously some people familiar with how Bitcoin works aren't too comfortable with the idea of daily account fees but there's no other alternative if you want to move to the same account protocol that MicroCash uses.
2  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Why is Microcash a scam? on: May 13, 2012, 01:05:13 AM
I propose to be one of those computers storing the accounts and transactions. In fact I propose to store your account and transaction information. So pay me 0.005 cents for storing your account and I will pay you 0.005 cents for storing mine and those two payments cancel each other out. I know that algorithm works for 2 nodes, I think it works for N nodes.  Cheesy

Since most users in MicroCash won't be running nodes this isn't a zero sum game for the nodes. Apparently all running nodes are going to be paid a reward from the CPF through some mechanism. I doubt it's going to be "that much" though.

You are proposing to charge the providers of the service, the nodes are the ones storing the information and providing this "luxury". They provide this in order to verify that the block chain is correct, which in turns provides security for those depending on that correctness.

Everyone who has an account pays, not just the node operators. People who run nodes are generally going to be businesses, supporters and people seeking the utmost in anonymity.

Because there is no known way to pay nodes fees for running and providing the service in a decentralized manner MicroCash will be using part of the CPF to help support the infrastructure, which is a good use of it in my opinion.


That person running the node is providing the storage, network transfer and CPU usage that you are proposing to charge them for. So now it costs them twice as much to participate. If Microcash needs money to defend itself, it is not secure. If a authoritative group needs to collect these funds then Microcash is not decentralized. The power, profit, and motivations becomes highly concentrated in the accounts with the most coins. Coincidentally, you control the most coins in the block chain at the moment. Or is it coincidence?

Anyone running a node is storing the blockchain but they aren't the only one. Part of the reason p2p decentralization works in a security sense is the fact hundreds or thousands of computers store the same information. If your computer is corrupted you then go out to the other nodes who have it stored (storage cost) and ask them to send you everything (cpu and network cost). So even though you are storing it there is still a cost in those other hundreds of computers storing your information also.

Most people think putting a price on services is a good thing as it means it can't be taken advantage of. This is the reason for Bitcoin transaction fees after all?

In the Bitcoin model the miners get all the fees, why isn't this discussed as unfair? All the non mining nodes do the same work and they get nothing. At least in MicroCash anyone who has an account does get something back for all the network fees (both transaction and account). So this means nodes are paid indirectly for helping the network, the amount they get paid just depends on how much MicroCash they have.

The amount collected in daily transaction fees is only a relatively small amount, each account only pays half a cent, most real banks charge on the order of 100x more. So it's certainly not free like Bitcoin, but it's also much less than real banks. People have a choice if they think a daily half cent fee is too much or if they think that the biggest accounts are getting unfair rewards. If these two things are contentious to new users then MicroCash simply won't be popular. I don't see how these concepts are too negative though as they are similar to what people in the real world already deal with today (account fees and interest).

When comparing to real life banks a daily half cent fee is about 100 times less cost to a business. When comparing to wiring funds around the world a half cent fixed fee is about 6000 times less. When compared to buying items, you can buy something in MicroCash that is 5c and only pay a 10% fee for it, Visa/Mastercard would be jealous. MicroCash when compared to real life examples is extremely competitive.
3  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: SolidCoin 3.0 (aka MicroCash) will have a daily fee for each address you have. on: May 13, 2012, 12:49:36 AM
This guy is clearly being paid minimal wage because he can't spare less a cent a dayCheesy
It's a matter of principle. Evaporating cryptocurrency isn't a match for non-evaporating real cash imo. I mean, in a system advertising itself as free from a central authority, having someone removing stuff from your wallet like the government directly debiting taxes from your account, or like e-gold slowing draining accounts when they went rogue, it's fairly discrediting I think...

Yes and transaction fees aren't evaporating your cryptocurrency savngs in Bitcoin I guess? Apparently in the future Bitcoin fees are the only way anyone will make money mining. It's something heavily discussed and criticized.
4  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Why is Microcash a scam? on: May 13, 2012, 12:16:59 AM
Why exactly must people lose their money for participating in the currency?
Nobody has articulated that need to my satisfaction.

Because there is a cost involved in storing your accounts and transactions on hundreds or thousands of computers around the world.

It's free in Bitcoin, but there is a small fee in MicroCash for this luxury. Just because it's free in Bitcoin doesn't mean it's a scam to have fees for actual services. Just because one person runs a node doesn't mean everyone else around the network doesn't have to also store their accounts and transactions. There is a cost for storage, network transfer and cpu usage related to accounts, MicroCash has a fee for this so that it can protect itself from spam and so that the system self cleanses. If you don't like the daily half cent (0.005) fee then you don't have to use MicroCash. No one is forcing you to use the service.
5  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Microcash.org says "Solidcoin" on: April 29, 2012, 04:30:34 AM
See? The fees get paid to the people with the most money, ie, the developers and early adopters, while the late adopters lose all their money. What, you thought he was kidding when he said it was a pyramid scheme? Roll Eyes

Fees get paid back proportionally to each account. So if you have 1% of the MicroCash (28000) you get 1% of daily fees (account and transaction). So the more MicroCash you have the higher the percentage of the fees you get. It doesn't necessarily reward early adopters, it rewards people who have MicroCash. I'd say anyone who has SolidCoin now or will mine MicroCash is still an early adopter as there are only around 1000 users of SolidCoin right now. Many people say if you're involved in Bitcoin right now you're an early adopter.

When MicroCash starts you will need around 50 MicroCash dollars to get interest. This doesn't include transaction fees, the more transactions there are the less MicroCash you need to get interest as all fees are collected up and distributed proportionally.

Basically to use MicroCash you have a fixed daily cost of $0.005 per account (or half a cent). Users will still get some reward back for even a small amount of MicroCash, so their daily cost will be less than 0.005 , completely depends on how much MCD they have. An example, if you had 1 MCD in an account you would get paid 0.0002 for that amount, so your daily fee is essentially 0.005 - 0.0002 .

If there are 2000 transactions a day , that is an extra ~15 MCD to be distributed to all accounts as well as all the account fees.



6  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Microcash.org says "Solidcoin" on: April 29, 2012, 03:58:00 AM
Every day every account takes a half cent (0.005) to cover the operational costs

Can you elaborate on the meaning of "operational costs", given that in a P2P currency, every participant shares the costs (basically just bandwidth, and my own at that) equally already?  And, where exactly will this half cent per day go - not in the abstract sense, but in the "0.005MC transferred from account ABC to account XYZ" sense - To what does that XYZ refer?

(And guys, c'mon, let him actually answer instead of mocking him - The petty, nonstop bickering really sucks most of the fun out of all this)

Operational costs are computer capital, memory usage, cpu usage, network usage and disk space usage. Nearly everyone around the world sets a price for these features (ie it's very difficult to find reliable hosting that is free). Because you can now securely use MicroCash without becoming a node you are essentially relying on the hundreds/thousands of computers around the world to do it for you. By putting a fee on this resource we can basically control to some extent the number of useless accounts created (that clog the nodes), prevent and cleanup spam and also now offer small amounts of interest back to the chain proportionally.

If anyone thinks half a cent per day is expensive then they shouldn't use MicroCash, use something that sets no price on something which actually costs something if they can, why not? I think by valuing something which costs something MicroCash can provide a better infrastructure and new services on top of it.

All fees are collected, account and transaction fees, and instead of giving them to the people who are rich in hardware (miners) they give it back to all MicroCash account holders proportionally based on the amount of MicroCash they have. Miners already get a lot, they are the only ones who can create new currency. So it's a different system, some say a better system as it rewards everyone invested in the currency vs only a few (the miners) for getting new users involved and doing more economic activity. As transactions increase (economic activity) everyone in the chain benefits.

If there are enough transactions per day then they will cancel out the account fee and everyone will earn "interest".
7  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Microcash.org says "Solidcoin" on: April 25, 2012, 01:28:01 AM
Ok you think bitcoin is not a pyramid scheme, that's fine. But are you denying the block reward for bitcoin cuts in half over time to eventually reach a low of 0?

That is exactly what Bitcoin does, and has done since the very first day it was released more than 3 years ago. There have been absolutely zero changes to the block reward. It is that trust that has been built over time that makes Bitcoin successful.

Answer this: How many times has SolidCoin changed the reward scheme?

Pyramid scheme, bait-and-switch, pump-and-dump, I not sure which scam term is most accurate of SolidCoin, but make no mistake, SolidCoin is very much a scam designed to benefit early adapters at the expense of later adopters.

You have a good point Syke in regards to the amount of times SolidCoin has changed. Change is both a good and bad thing, SolidCoin changed a lot so now that they've got something they think they can work with they've decided to create a new brand to represent it. The next version will be very hard to do any changes to, a lot like Bitcoin so we should see some stability in regards to chain features.

The fact Bitcoin hasn't changed much at all since 2009 is good like you said, but it's also bad. There are compromises made and everyone supporting Bitcoin is supporting a single persons choices he made in 2008-2009. Most of us already know many of those decisions haven't stood the test of time, but Bitcoin still sticks to its guns and people can trust that more than something that changes a lot like SolidCoin. However please don't confuse the fact Bitcoin hasn't changed to mean it's perfect or that it's reward system isn't shaped to favor early adopters, these are facts, no one can dispute them. Whether or not the decision to stick to these things will favor Bitcoin we have to wait and see, I guess when the reward cuts in half we will see how new people handle the fact they aren't getting 50 BTC per block anymore. Smiley
8  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MicroCash - New CryptoCurrency on: April 24, 2012, 01:55:58 PM
ScamCoin is open-source? Well, that put's a whole new spin on things. Let's see what we've got here...
Code: (mining.cpp)
if(g_bTrustedMiningOnly && (pBlock->nBlockNum%2)==1 )
{
Sleep(100);
continue;
}
Huh. I've always wondered how trusted mining works. Now I know! Cheesy Does MicroCash work the same way? Grin

That's so trust nodes will only bother attempting to create trust blocks which are even, the odd blocks are normal blocks. Both trust nodes/blocks and trust accounts have been removed from MicroCash due to criticism.
9  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Microcash.org says "Solidcoin" on: April 24, 2012, 01:48:38 PM
MicroCash is a pyramid scheme because it steals from the poor to give to the rich. Bitcoin doesn't steal from anyone, and the block rewards are payed from a fixed and limited supply to those who take the time and effort to secure the network. It is not a pyramid scheme.

Ok you think bitcoin is not a pyramid scheme, that's fine. But are you denying the block reward for bitcoin cuts in half over time to eventually reach a low of 0? Doesn't this mean if you mine at 50 BTC per block you are getting more than the guys you bring in to Bitcoin when it's 0 per block? Unless my math fails me, 50 is greater than 0. So every time a Bitcoin user educates his friends and family about Bitcoin, he is doing so under the guise that soon there will be less Bitcoin made, benefiting the early adopter who was mining at 50 bitcoins a block.

Again, unless my math fails me it seems like the people who get in earlier in Bitcoin make more coins, and by encouraging more people in, those new people make less coins giving greater value to the first coins.....

Of course Bitcoin isn't a pyramid scheme, I was just kidding around there friend. If anything is a pyramid scheme it's MicroCash, where fees are equally distributed back to the chain depending on the amount of MicroCash in them. If anything screams pyramid to me, it's a blockchain where fees are redistributed proportionally to the amount of MicroCash you have. Just because Bitcoins block values look like this

Code:
Bitcoin Block Rewards
      00
     *01*
    **03**
   ***06***
  ****12****
 *****25*****
******50******

Does not mean we can liberally use the word pyramid around Bitcoin. Thanks for clearing it up for us.
10  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Microcash.org says "Solidcoin" on: April 24, 2012, 01:36:40 PM
Taking out the 12 trust nodes (why do two have transactions?) only the top 21 accounts (1.4m of 2.8m) will be making money off of this system. LUKS GUD

Not to be a "hater" bro, your math is terrible.

You only need ~50 MicroCash to get interest (that is you're paid back more than your fee) given the number of accounts (about 100K). I'll show you the math.

100000 * 0.005 microcash (daily half cent fee) = 500 microcash total in fees

50 MicroCash as a percentage of the total MicroCash in existence is  50/2800000 as there are 2.8 million dollars in existence. This number is %0.0017 of all the MicroCash

We times the percentage of MicroCash an account has (0.000017) by the fees (500)  and we end up with 0.0085 being paid back. Now if you can remember, the fee is 0.005. Now let me show you one final thing.

If you have 50 MicroCash.  0.0085 daily interest - 0.005 daily fee = extra 0.0035 MicroCash per day

So if you have 50 MicroCash, and not even counting transaction fees which are also given fairly to each account, you would get an extra 0.0035 MicroCash per day. No fee, extra money, for a relatively small amount of MicroCash. Now I hope when you design encoin you do a better job with the math. Make sure you carry the decimal.


11  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MicroCash - New CryptoCurrency on: April 24, 2012, 11:21:46 AM
You can't "imply" something's open source. Either the source is available for all to see or it isn't. So which is it?

MicroCash isn't released yet so the source isn't available. SolidCoin source has been available not far from when it was released, that is what I meant it's implied open source. The project it's spawning from is, why wouldn't we assume this is also?

http://solidcoin.info/downloads.html
12  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Microcash.org says "Solidcoin" on: April 24, 2012, 11:15:25 AM
"HEY GUISE U GET CHARGED 5 DECI-PENNIES A DAY BUT U MAKE 1 MILLI-PENNY TO MAKE UP 4 IT!*

Some accounts with low amounts of MicroCash will get low amounts or no amounts of the total fees paid back, who is denying that or misleading anyone? Every day every account takes a half cent (0.005) to cover the operational costs, whether the account is rich or poor this fee is taken. These fees are then redistributed back to every account based on how much MicroCash they have.

Nothing is stopping anyone from becoming a MicroCash holder and earning significant amounts of interest, they just have to sell products people will buy, offer services or invest themselves. People who have tiny amounts of MicroCash will pay an account fee just like someone with a lot of MicroCash will. If they increase the amount of MicroCash they have they'll go from paying a tiny fee to actually earning MicroCash, it's a nice reward system where people can escape paying fees.

As to how much reward is given back, it all depends on the total fees collected, which varies day to day. The more people use the network the more fees are collected and the more people are paid. Now users get indirectly paid for spreading the word about MicroCash to their friends and family.
13  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Microcash.org says "Solidcoin" on: April 24, 2012, 11:01:40 AM
The problem is, that despite some features being changed the main idea stays the same: A centralised blockchain with a HEAVY benefit to early adoptors as well as a pyramid scheme built in.
So basically what people keep criticising is not a certain technical thing anymore - it is the overall idea.

The block chain isn't centralized in MicroCash, you may need to refine what you mean by the comment.

A pyramid scheme built in sounds interesting... so Bitcoins pyramid block rewards (half the bitcoins block are worth 50 BTC, then half of that worth 25 BTC, then half of that worth 12.5BTC and on and on) aren't a pyramid but I guess having account fees go to every MicroCash user is a pyramid.....

There are way more "early adopters" in MicroCash than Bitcoin. How many people mined Bitcoins first 2 million coins? SolidCoin probably has 100-200x more investors at the same stage. So pretty much all your criticisms here apply to Bitcoin as well but amplified. Are you suggesting Bitcoin needs to improve its overall idea?
14  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MicroCash - New CryptoCurrency on: April 24, 2012, 10:40:23 AM
Why is there no mention of the source code being open source?

Because it's implied it's open source? They may even be going back to a MIT license.
15  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MicroCash - New CryptoCurrency on: April 24, 2012, 10:29:39 AM
Hang on - no I don't, I hope he dies in a fire.

Another reasonable poster I see.
16  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MicroCash - New CryptoCurrency on: April 24, 2012, 10:28:20 AM
Should we oppose any Crypto-currency which attempt to Centralize and/or Concentrate power/trust to a few individuals?

I ask because it appears that many of the ideas proposed as alternate currencies add centralization to the Bitcoin model rather than attempting to mitigate Centralization of Power. I view *insert name of alternate crypto currency in question but which shall not be named* as being one example of this. To me, these currencies are simply short term currencies whose point of being is to give the backers some short term gains by selling pre-mined coins or by abusing their own code to extract more coins than other users. In other words to get a one up on the competition and thus make money.

Am I right to be skeptical?

MicroCash doesn't have trust nodes or trust blocks, so it's as centralized as Bitcoin could be called. It does however feature a 51% mining defense which apparently isn't as secure as SolidCoin v2 but they had to make compromises so that they wouldn't get criticized anymore about being "centralized". Realsolid or any other developer can no longer control the chain.

http://solidcointalk.org/topic/591-decay-and-interest-v3-feature-discussion/page__view__findpost__p__6175
17  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Microcash.org says "Solidcoin" on: April 24, 2012, 10:25:28 AM
Looks fine here guys.

Also aren't many of you who criticized many decisions in SolidCoin v2 happy that the developers listened to most of it and removed the stuff or found alternate solutions?

No trust accounts. No trust nodes. Do you guys always need something to whinge about or is it just a hobby?
18  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MicroCash - New CryptoCurrency on: April 19, 2012, 03:46:22 PM
The screen shots do look interesting, would the beta be coming soon for us to try it out?

On the forum link RealSolid says it will be fully launched by May 10. And the beta out in a few days.
19  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MicroCash - New CryptoCurrency on: April 19, 2012, 03:21:52 PM
From

MicroCash is going to include every SolidCoin in it,

Does it mean that SolidCoin is converted to MicroCash?  No more SolidCoin but MicroCash when it becomes active?

Yeah, basically what will happen is when MicroCash is ready to launch the SolidCoin network will stop at a certain block. All coins will then be carried forth into the new chain, using your SolidCoin addresses you'll be able to get a new MicroCash address and have the same funds without compromising your security. Your private and public keys are what makes the "address" you see, so since MicroCash is still using ECDSA it can morph to a new address format quite easily and return funds to every SolidCoin owner.

From what I gathered, 1 SolidCoin is going to equal 1 MicroCash dollar.
20  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MicroCash - New CryptoCurrency on: April 19, 2012, 03:18:44 PM
Quote
MicroCash will have an alternate 51% mining protection mechanism which will mean the power of the network is more in the users hands


Accounts store public keys so that once set it's more secure than ripemd160

details prz


Sounds like they are storing the public key with the accounts so that it is "Set" once and can't be changed. This way it won't be relying upon a potentially weak hash to secure a public key anymore, but the actual public key. Probably also why they can reduce transaction size so drastically.
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