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Neither Bisq, LocalMonero, or RoboSats are designed to be used as mixing services. Blockchain hopping isn't the most effective way to anonymize your Bitcoin. The Bitfinex hackers tried to use this technique but investigators were still able to follow their transactions.
Didn't they store their adresses AND passwords in the cloud. I'm guessing they didn't even encrypt them before uploading. Makes me wonder how they were able to get all that crypto in the first place when they couldn't handle this rudimentary point.Since it uses Tor by default, you can run this on a non-live install without worries and less risk of losing funds (e.g. if the USB drive unplugs; poof: offer and funds are gone). I lose the offer, ok. But i lose my coins? Wdym? I can't log back in for my coins? Yes. There is nothing to 'log back in'. There are no servers, therefore no 'accounts' on servers that you could log back into. The only accounts that exist are your fiat payment methods saved in your client, locally. Your coins are in your Bisq wallet. Local. It's just a local hot wallet. Meaning if your local install dies, and you have no seed phrase backup, those coins are also gone. coin control in the Bisq wallet Is that a feature in Bisq? I don't see it.Do you know that Bitcoin operates on a UTXO model where chunks of coins are constantly being created and destroyed by transactions and where it is sometimes trivial to trace particular coins from their birth to the most recent transaction? Coin control feature is usually provided by software such as bitcoin wallet in order for you to have the ability to somewhat influence the history of coins. Especially this feature becomes highly relevant when you are dealing with KYCed coins because coin control enables you to prevent the accidental merging KYCed bitcoins with non-KYCed ones. When sending a transaction, you choose carefully which chunks of Bitcoin to send (you label those chunks to remember who is who); coin control helps you keep anonymous and "named" bitcoins separately. Without proper coin control, the preservation of anonymity becomes a very tough task. |
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coin control Whats that?
Since it uses Tor by default, you can run this on a non-live install without worries and less risk of losing funds (e.g. if the USB drive unplugs; poof: offer and funds are gone). I lose the offer, ok. But i lose my coins? Wdym? I can't log back in for my coins?
So no 70/30? That's putting a lot of trust in the exchange of not logging. Robosats is a centralized (but anonymous) service; they can and probably do log stuff. Bisq is fully decentralized, i.e. there are no servers except the users' own computers, so nothing is logged outside of your own and your trading partner's machine. |
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You must be having a hard time quoting those posts, don't you?  Why, if I'm using a public computer with a public ip? That's no doubt preferable than using a third party. The downside with running a node with IPv4/IPv6 is that you clear it out to your Internet provider, and to your neighbor nodes, that you run Monero full node, and you're therefore likely to own XMR as well. How would the steps in the method work out with only 2? They don't, but I wouldn't complicate it as much as you do. Just using an exchange to sell stuff, and another exchange to buy stuff is already an overdose. |
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Be sure to run your own node, and to not rely on third parties (for maximum privacy). Why, if I'm using a public computer with a public ip?Also what about decenterlized exchanges besides Bisq, RoboSats and LocalMonero? Any thoughts on LocalMonero? Haven't tried it, but aren't you satisfied already with 2? |
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Can anyone recommend a noncustodial Monero wallet?
Also what about decenterlized exchanges besides Bisq, RoboSats and LocalMonero? Any thoughts on LocalMonero?
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3 things.
1) You have to download and install bisq and do a few other things, there is no 'create an account' you have to have it running on a PC you control.
1a) I don't think there is a BTC <-> XMR on bisq Good point!
Can anyone confirm on there not being BTC/XMR on Bisq? If there isnt, then any alternative suggestions besides LocalMonero and RoboSats?
3) You are going to pay a lot in fees unless you are talking $1000s of dollars it's going to be a large % of the BTC Are the fees percentages of the transaction amount, or is it a fixed rate? If it's a percentage, how much are we talking about? |
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But there must be hundreds of thousands of btc 0.099 transactions within the same time frame. But i get your point. Noted.
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The method you propose isn't bad at all, I mean you reach the goal when you change the BTC for XMR... But we have to spend a lot on transaction fees and exchange fees, and I don't like that part. It would be cheaper and easier just to send the bitcoins to a mixer service like chip mixer.
Even sending all your BTC direct to bisq swap all to XMR and withdraw would lose the trace of them, that's why I don't get at all the extra steps you do by dividing the amounts 70-30.
The problem is swapping them back to btc |
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And then immediately... Why are you in such rush?  It's just to clarify on the time period between the transactions, that this method does not involve spacing out the transactions. That way if it's crucial that it be spaced out, someone can point that out, as you have  Also, what's up with the other threads? You've already asked similar questions there, and got quite good responses.
This thread is based on those good answers. It summarizes eveything suggested there in a clear, concise manner to be critiqued |
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1) Send KYCed BTC to a new address from Electrum mobile wallet operating on a new dedicated Android user profile (1).
2) Create a new Bisq account through Tails on a public computer/location/ip #1. And then immediately...
3) Send all the BTC from Electrum to Bisq.
4) Convert the BTC in Bisq to XMR all at once. And then immediately...
5) Send all the XMR in Bisq to a single newly created Monero wallet and address on a Live Linux USB on computer/location/ip #2. And then immediately...
6) Send %70 of the XMR in the Monero wallet to a new Robosats account created through the Live Linux USB on public computer/location/ip #3. And then immediately...
7) Convert all the XMR in RoboSats to BTC.
8 ) Send the remaining %30 of the XMR in the Monero wallet to a new LocalMonero account created through the Live Linux USB on public computer/location/ip #4. And then immediately...
9) Convert all the XMR in LocalMonero to BTC.
10) Send all the BTC from RoboSats and LocalMonero to a newly created Electrum mobile account and address on a new dedicated Android user profile (2) with a dedicated VPN on the same phone as step 1.
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What's the problem with that if using a public computer with a public ip? You need to consider the risks of doing all this in public. Are there people that can see what you are doing? Are there any cameras? Are you sure the computer you are using doesn't have some monitor device attached to it, such as a hardware keylogger, which would not be mitigated by your use of Tails? Considered all of that and its a green light. Now, considering that, is there any benefit to running my own full node? No buyers For your method of fiat? Can you swap it to USD or similar first? I'm assuming you mean P2P? Not really. |
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Thanks for this heads up. Good to know. Is the usage of VPN in their T&C? What about Bisq and Hodlhodl? And how do you resolve this issue if they dont give you back your coins even after verifying like what you linked? Who's law are they under? |
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Could you have a look at my method below and tell me if what you're saying applies? Also, the transactions would be done over different devices at different times. I would avoid using KuCoin or any other centralized exchange at all since they all track your movements and report to blockchain analysis companies. Far better to use a proper DEX such as Bisq for this step, just as you do at the end. Notice step 5 and 6 where %70 is sent to Hodlhodl and the remaining %30 to Bisq. Is that unnecessary, to divide the coins? Or just do all of it with one exchange (e.g. Bisq)? If it is a good idea, then is Hodlhodl good? And since you said to not use Kucoin, then which 3rd exchange do you recommend (besides Bisq and HodlHodl)? And you should be running your own node for both Bitcoin and Monero rather than using light wallets depending on someone else's node. What's the problem with that if using a public computer with a public ip? Downloading the entire blockchain will take 24 hours, which isnt feasible over a public computer. A simpler solution all round would be to return your KYCed bitcoin to whichever centralized exchange you bought them from with a KYCed account, sell them, withdraw your fiat, close your account, and then take that fiat over to Bisq and buy completely unrelated non-KYC bitcoin. No buyers |
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By "again" do you mean the same Electrum wallet (Electrum 1)? Because I wouldn't use the same wallet. I'd use a new Electeum wallet and, of course, new address - Electrum 2/address 2. Doesn't really matter. If a server sees your device fingerprint and IP query all the addresses from wallet 1, and the minutes later sees the same device fingerprint and IP query all the addresses from wallet 2, it is trivial to deduce that wallet 1 and wallet 2 are owned by the same person. Could you have a look at my method below and tell me if what you're saying applies? Also, the transactions would be done over different devices at different times. 1) Send KYCed BTC to a new address from Etherum Electrum wallet operating in Tails on public computer #1 at location A. 2) Create Kucoin account without KYC through the same Tails on the same USB stick as the above but from another public computer (computer #2) and a different location (location B) using different ip (ip #2). 3) Exchange BTC to XMR 4) Send XMR to a newly created cold wallet running on a Live Linux USB on public computer #3 at location C using ip #3. 5) Send %30 of the XMR to a new Hodlhodl account created throught the Live Linux USB on public computer #4 with ip #4 at location D 6) Send the remaining %70 of XMR to a new Bisq account created throught the Live Linux USB on public computer #5 using ip #5 at location E 7) Convert XMRs in both the exchanges into BTC. 8 ) Send the BTC from Hodlhodl to a new Etherum address from a new Etherum wallet on the same device as step 1. 9) Send the BTC from Bisq to a new Etherum Electrum address from the same wallet and device as step 9. |
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Does it matter if they're public ips or using vpn?
Let's say you bought Bitcoin with KYC and withdrew. And let's say you use Electrum with public node. So KYCed btc > to Electrum 1/address 1 Let's say that you mix the coins and receive bitcoin to address2. You open Electrum again. By "again" do you mean the same Electrum wallet (Electrum 1)? Because I wouldn't use the same wallet. I'd use a new Electeum wallet and, of course, new address - Electrum 2/address 2. The second Electrum server operator (if he wants to check the data) will know that address1 and address2 are from same wallet. Wouldn't using a different wallet (even a diffrent provider) solve this issue? Seems like a much simpler solution than running your own full node. What am i missing? |
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Because of fingerprints like IP addresses or browser data, when you use a regular browser for posting transactions. Also, SPV nodes usually ask about many addresses, and it is possible for some SPV server operator to track users in that way.
Does it matter if they're public ips or using vpn? |
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Note that the above assumes you're running and connecting to your own Bitcoin full node (and Monero full node for the last part), and that you're aware of coin control. It is very easy to screw it up with privacy.
Why do I have to have my own full node for it to be effective? How is it not effective otherwise? |
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Which method is the most effective?
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It seems that there are always people who don't believe that something works. Some don't believe private blockchains (like Monero) are private, some don't believe in Bitcoin mixers. Of course, there are scammers in every field, including mixers. But it doesn't seem that mixed funds can be traced to a person. The shuffling is just good enough to make it impossible.
Another issue is, of course, that mixers might often be used by criminals, so the bits and pieces you'll get might look suspicious because a person felt a need to use a mixer. But o don't think there will be any proof, any way to link the funds that went into the mixer with those that went out of it, if a person gets them out to a noncustodial wallet.
Can we say that the method I described AS WELL AS coin mixing would be even better? Perhaps an overkill, but as long as it is better (even %1) and not actually worse. |
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(nobody else had bitcoin back then so there is a good chance those were Satoshi's) I mean, we dont have that problem now do we? The same method cannot be used. |
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