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81  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 13, 2014, 11:33:51 PM

You are exposing the logic of a thieves´ mind here. By punishing victims and encouraging fraud we will get a better system? really?

And again, your usage of the word centralized is completely stupid. In that regard everything would be centralized. Maybe you have been exposed to to many buzzword feeds.

Centralization to me means the conglomeration of power into a single entity or geographic location.
In my opinion this applies to how trading in Vericoin was centered around Mintpal.
Hence centralization and a single point of failure.

The alternative being decentralization. The epitome of which: peer to peer trading and no middlemen or exchanges.

Thieves will always exploit exploitable systems.
If you protect exploitable systems you protect the thieves.


Exactly and by hardforking the system shows, that it cannot be exploited.
The system of laissez-faire, that you are dreaming of will always be exploited - even if you meet your peers on the street to exchange some coins, what will you do, if they bring a knife to trade with you?
82  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 13, 2014, 11:29:43 PM
As much as I've been a supporter of VeriCoin... a fork to roll back the blockchain is a very tough pill to swallow. Have to say I'm with dadams.

I saw three big rollbacks of transactions at mtgox. A fall from 17.50 to 0.0001, a fall from around 15 to 3 and a spike from around 10 to 1000000. Mtgox altered the trade history - was it a problem for investors at that time to stick with mtgox and bring the price to 1200 a year or two later?

83  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 13, 2014, 11:17:59 PM

It's pretty obvious at this point money cannot exist without some central trust.
Day in and day out watching crypto in it's current state it's pretty clear now.
Not ready for a trustless system.

If someone finds a better way... go invent it - be my guest.


Satoshi Nakamoto did thankfully.


Rollback will be the death of Vericoin.

Fork making the stolen coins disappear would be bad as well but better than a rollback.
If the aim is to stop the thief from profiting then that would work as well.

Rollback would be better for Mintpal.
In a fork I would expect them to work hard to pay for their security lapse and pay back their customers.

You still don't get or ignore the fact that 8 million coins staking would cause a 51% attack.  Are you thick?  There is no choice

There is always a choice.
The best "tech purist" choice? Leave it be and see what happens.
Bitcoin designed so that it is not in anyones best interest to break.
If 51% attack is now possible, so easily done and in the best interest to abuse, then Vericoin is broken and should die.

Second choice:
Fork to destroy coins. This way no profit or control for thief.
People who had all their money on Mintpal to day trade lose out and learn a lesson.

Third choice:
Rollback.
You know how I feel about this.

Choice 2.....

So, you are okay with forking, as long as the people do not get there money back who had it stolen?

Am I missing something? You make no sense

I'm definitely not ok with rollback.
That way you just protect a broken system.
Mintpal, who is partially at fault here, suffers none.
People who trust centralized systems don't learn not to.
It will set a ridiculous precedent.

Maybe we should also immediately start forming the senate that decides what theft is big enough to warrant a rollback and who it will benefit?

In fork:
hacker does not get coins and the fear of 51% attack goes away.
Mintpal and daytraders lose lots of money.
People learn once again not to trust exchanges.
Maybe one day this will sink in and we will have peer to peer trading.

Either way there is meddling by dev and central bodies which is against the underlying principles.


You are exposing the logic of a thieves´ mind here. By punishing victims and encouraging fraud we will get a better system? really?

And again, your usage of the word centralized is completely stupid. In that regard everything would be centralized. Maybe you have been exposed to to many buzzword feeds.
84  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 13, 2014, 10:55:27 PM


So Bitcoin is broken a hundred times, you should sell them all.

By the way, the exchange system is decentralized. You seem to have a different definition of central and decentral as everyone else here has.

And you are legitimizing theft, as all hardcore anarchists do. Theft is a crime which cannot be allowed in a civil society.

Centralized = Mintpal in this scenario. A central agency, a single point of failure trusted with a large amount of coin.
Decentralized = peer to peer trading.

Simple.

By trying to erase the theft you are protecting the system that makes thieving like this possible.
Is this the long term solution? Everytime there is a theft roll it back?
How many roll backs? Who decides? How the hell do we ever use this for a currency if thats gonna be the case?

If you roll back you make this happening again way more likely.
You make it inevitable. Making the next rollback inevitable.
By not rolling back you force to find another solution. This way we move forward. Not backward.

Exactly what happened with all these bitcoin thefts, right?

The opposite is true, you don´t discourage fraudsters by a laissez-faire approach.

And again: hardfork does not mean moving backwards, in fact it means moving forward. It is an ability of the technology and it is right to use this ability to discourage theft.
85  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 13, 2014, 10:44:28 PM
They said the fork is going to happen and that's probably the best course of action for the coin. My concern is that in the rush to get the fork done there will not be sufficient communications from the dev team and key stakeholders. I run several public VRC nodes with lots of connections. What can I be doing to make sure the fork is successful? Should I shut my nodes down now or leave them running? Do I just need to download/compile/restart when the new code becomes available? Is there anything else I can do to help the network converge onto the correct chain? I hope this doesn't turn into a DRK style fork where the key people think everything is fine but everyone else is seeing random forks all over the place. Some clear communication from the key people would be great, I'm ready to help--just let me know how.

Send me an email, pnosker@vericoin.info. You will need to reclone/compile.

All hail the protection of the middlemen.
God protect our bankers.
God protect our exchangers and money lenders.
God protect our daytraders and manipulators.

Finally someone said this.

You do not like it, when the thieve robs an empty bag?
86  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 13, 2014, 10:34:41 PM

so what happens if such a centralized dev team gets leaned upon by gov which includes a gag order not to say they are being leaned upon?

it looks like a single point off failure.



What assures you that this didn´t already happen to bitcoin or any other coin?
 
Here it is about theft of peoples property and if the only tool you have left to discourage theft is a hardfork, than it is the right thing to do. Yes, it is experimental but at some point it has to be done by someone anyway.

No.
The answer is not to protect broken systems.
The answer is to create better systems that can't be broken.
If people have not learned NOT to trust centralized things like Mintpal and Mtgox.. here is another lesson for you.
Everyone else take note.
You have money on Poloniex? Bittrex? Bter? anywhere else centralized? This can happen to you.

Nothing is broken, when you roll back a fraudulent transaction by hardforking. The system works, trust will be restored. It is not a handicap to hardfork, it is an advantage.

The more I think about it, the clearer I can see, that this dogma of "never-roll-back-a-transaction,-even-if-it-is-fraudulent,-because-you-must-protect-the-integrity-of-the-blockchain" was invented by the very same scammers that committed all these thefts.

Nonsense.
If fraud CAN happen it is broken.
If the whole system can come crashing down because of one fraudulent transaction then it is broken.
Why do you think Bitcoin is worth so much more than anything else?  Because it has survived stuff like this and worse.

If you need a rollback then the system doesn't work.
If there is a rollback then there is no trust.
What a rollback shows is that it doesn't work and can't be trusted... it needs to be fixed.
A broken system.
If Mintpal got stolen all its Bitcoin do you think there would be a rollback to protect daytraders?
Ask yourself why not.
What is the difference here?

The only answer here is to move to decentralization.
Mintpal failed. Mtgox failed. Central things will always fail at some point.

So Bitcoin is broken a hundred times, you should sell them all.

By the way, the exchange system is decentralized. You seem to have a different definition of central and decentral as everyone else here has.

And you are legitimizing theft, as all hardcore anarchists do. Theft is a crime which cannot be allowed in a civil society.
87  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 13, 2014, 10:19:10 PM

so what happens if such a centralized dev team gets leaned upon by gov which includes a gag order not to say they are being leaned upon?

it looks like a single point off failure.



What assures you that this didn´t already happen to bitcoin or any other coin?
 
Here it is about theft of peoples property and if the only tool you have left to discourage theft is a hardfork, than it is the right thing to do. Yes, it is experimental but at some point it has to be done by someone anyway.

No.
The answer is not to protect broken systems.
The answer is to create better systems that can't be broken.
If people have not learned NOT to trust centralized things like Mintpal and Mtgox.. here is another lesson for you.
Everyone else take note.
You have money on Poloniex? Bittrex? Bter? anywhere else centralized? This can happen to you.

Nothing is broken, when you roll back a fraudulent transaction by hardforking. The system works, trust will be restored. It is not a handicap to hardfork, it is an advantage.

The more I think about it, the clearer I can see, that this dogma of "never-roll-back-a-transaction,-even-if-it-is-fraudulent,-because-you-must-protect-the-integrity-of-the-blockchain" was invented by the very same scammers that committed all these thefts.
88  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 13, 2014, 10:04:51 PM

so what happens if such a centralized dev team gets leaned upon by gov which includes a gag order not to say they are being leaned upon?

it looks like a single point off failure.



What assures you that this didn´t already happen to bitcoin or any other coin?
 
Here it is about theft of peoples property and if the only tool you have left to discourage theft is a hardfork, than it is the right thing to do. Yes, it is experimental but at some point it has to be done by someone anyway.
89  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][VRC] | VeriCoin | POS - NSDI | VeriBit | VeriSend | VeriSMS on: July 13, 2014, 09:52:03 PM
Hi all,

just want to show support for the DEVs decision to hardfork the blockchain.

I like it, how finally somebody stands up against all these cryptothefts by protecting the property of community members and investors.

I am all for letting those thieves know, that they cannot screw up the vericoin blockchain. A hardfork will discourage them to try again, because they have nothing to gain. It will in fact protect the integrity of the blockchain, because property rights are respected here.

Bitcoin Foundation and DEVs thought/think they need to protect the integrity of their blockchain by never rolling back transactions even after considerable amounts of BTC were stolen. This only lead to more thefts, scams and fraud - up to the point, when mtgox itself went into bankruptcy under highly suspicious circumstances.
And now $-volume at the exchanges is falling and mainstream is scared away from bitcoin, because of all these thefts.

It is not more than a theory, that you cannot roll back fraudulent transactions, because it will discourage future investors - eventually it will be proven wrong.

That is just my opinion,

Thanx

If vericoin gets dumped, I will buy more.
90  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: May 19, 2014, 02:19:14 PM


quick and dirty, but I like it (especially the parabola in the LSMA  Cheesy).



91  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: More proof that savegox.com is a sham. on: May 12, 2014, 08:00:35 PM
I found this site: http://www.coinsumm.it/

Among the speakers are Brock Pierce, Shakil Khan and Roger Ver. A lot of other "Angel-Investors" will also speak there. So these AIs maybe belong to the same network (more or less) and do not want to hurt each other too much, because it would negatively affect the group?

I was reading about Amir Taaki & friends and the Intersango gox in some other thread.  There they mentioned that Amir was organizing a London Summit.  Is it this one?

I don´t know about Taaki´s involvement. (I mean inwolfment  Cheesy).
92  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: SaveGox.com on: May 12, 2014, 07:47:04 PM
I think this fits in here quite well.

From reddit:

http://pastebin.ro/cs5Lr0gO

Quote
I haven’t even gotten to the original content of Debonneville’s complaint that Pierce worked so hard to have stricken from all public records. As this is the internet, the sealed text is still available despite Pierce’s best efforts.
 
(...)
 
The statement from Debonneville reveals that Brock Pierce and Marc Collins-Rector were unusually close. The complaint also alleged that Brock Pierce misappropriated stock and about $200,000 of IGE’s money in order to pay the settlements in the civil cases against Pierce and Collins-Rector. Additionally, Debonneville revealed that Pierce made business decisions with Yantis behind Debonneville’s back. Specifically, Pierce knowingly agreed to Yantis’s plan to sell duped and exploited virtual currency and items to MMORPG players, something that IGE had taken a very public and vocal stand against in the months before its merger with Yantis.

Mtgox - Sunlot - Audit - Refund ?
 Cheesy
93  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: BitPay raising $30 million of capital, gives itself a ridiculous valuation on: May 11, 2014, 05:05:33 PM
So this is the BIG BitPay News ?

silly, as expected...

94  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: More proof that savegox.com is a sham. on: May 11, 2014, 04:52:43 PM


reminds me of this one:



 Cheesy

EDIT: Only difference: There have never been allegations against Sergei Mavrodi concerning child abuse.

EDIT2: And Mavrodi was not able to pay millions of $ to avoid a court case.
95  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: May 11, 2014, 12:36:34 PM
ok so let me guess how this might play out:

1. FXBTC played a Gox (fact)
2. Other exchanges might be operating a fractional reserve too (speculation, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=592760.msg6505570#msg6505570) (meh, call me fudster if you want)
3. Chinese traders are worried that other exchanges might pull a Gox too and hence a part of them will aim for the fiat exit door, depressing the price.
4. 1 and 2 add another reason for PBoC to want to "protect the people" and pull the plug on the other exchanges before a large scale Goxxing happens.
5. When/if 4 happens, we will soon discover how much is the impact on price on western exchanges. It might as well be the final test (bit like the "Silk Road bust" test last year) and bring the decoupling that everyone here seems to be expecting.


The rational thing to do if you are afraid, is to convert everything to bitcoin and withdraw. Because

a) it is risky to be in fiat these days

b) it is risky to have funds at exchanges these days.

Bonus: If your favorite exchange goes bust, it is more difficult for the thugs to track you.



c) it is risky to hold bitcoins these days

Therefore withdraw your money and diversify your portfolio Smiley
96  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: More proof that savegox.com is a sham. on: May 11, 2014, 12:28:29 PM
Something is brewing:

https://bitcoinfoundation.org/forum/index.php?/topic/951-post-your-bitcoin-foundation-resignations-here/

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2589v1/bitcoin_foundation_resignation_over_brock_pierce_1/

Quote
(...) the fact that within 24 hours about 5% of only 140 or so members said goodbye to their membership. At LEAST that. (...)

97  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: May 11, 2014, 10:33:09 AM
The sentiment is very bad on Bitcoin but the same people that tell you they think it is going down are keeping ton of cash on the exchanges; that makes me very bullish

How do you know about cash on exchanges?

98  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: May 11, 2014, 10:13:09 AM
ok so let me guess how this might play out:

(...)

5. When/if 4 happens, we will soon discover how much is the impact on price on western exchanges. It might as well be the final test (bit like the "Silk Road bust" test last year) and bring the decoupling that everyone here seems to be expecting.


Hmm, "Silk Road bust" happend weeks after reversal of the downtrend. It was a shakeout. Now we are still in a downtrend, which I would expect to go on for at least another 3 to 4 weeks.



The recovery from the silk road bust was actually the start of when China started buying. Who knows what would have happened without China.

Mtgox would have pushed the price to around1000$ ? Every other exchange would have been following mtgox.  Cheesy
99  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: May 11, 2014, 10:01:24 AM
ok so let me guess how this might play out:

(...)

5. When/if 4 happens, we will soon discover how much is the impact on price on western exchanges. It might as well be the final test (bit like the "Silk Road bust" test last year) and bring the decoupling that everyone here seems to be expecting.


Hmm, "Silk Road bust" happend weeks after reversal of the downtrend. It was a shakeout. Now we are still in a downtrend, which I would expect to go on for at least another 3 to 4 weeks.

100  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: May 11, 2014, 09:20:08 AM
Someone exposed lobbyists working for Mastercard as being responsible for FUD

http://www.forbes.com/sites/perianneboring/2014/05/09/secs-investor-warning-on-bitcoin-could-stifle-innovation/

To me it seems more like Perianne Boring is spreading forbes-FUD.

Quote from: Perianne Boring
The possible social benefits of Bitcoin far outweigh the investment threats of Bitcoin. This Investor Alert must stem from the approximate $500 million worth of bitcoin that was lost in the Mt. Gox bitcoin exchange.

There were tons of BTC stolen by fraud/hacks/theft long before mtgox. Central banks around the world issued warnings concerning bitcoin long ago. I guess mastercard lobbied the PBOC as well.  Cheesy

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