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1  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Email from Avalon on: May 15, 2016, 08:46:30 AM
Well, I think there are many viewpoints and opinions, I suggest please email love@canaan.io with your ideas and business proposals. Canaan is open minded. Please follow us at https://twitter.com/canaanio

 Smiley
2  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Email from Avalon on: May 14, 2016, 06:03:18 AM


If you sold him a7 chips with documentation he could build good gear.



To be honest, very hard. In history, few of 3rd party do a competitive job. 16nm Chips are extremely hard to deal with, also.


One problem with the a6 vs the a4.1 was it was locked via software.

That works for many farms but for some of us an unlocked miner has more value.
The problem with just about all chip builders is they rather gear to bigger farms.

I did a lot of work to help sell a6s to the guy with limits to cheap power.

I am in a joint venture on a larger but not huge solar array.

The power is cheap actually cheaper then most can do.
If we mine 8-11kwatts  year round the net power cost would be under 2 cents.

But that is all the power we have on the 2.5 acre spot.
So an a7 with the downclock under lot option is better for us.



So what's your need and what's your want?
All you want is a downclock/downvoltageble miner? If so, it's possible.
If you need a miner under 500W? It's possible.
any others? Smiley

We could just buy a few more and down clock while the starting cost would be higher for us in the long run the better efficiency allows for more hash power.

10 at 10 th using 10 kwatts is 100 th
12 at 9 th using    10 kwatt is 108 th
Both bitmaintech and Avalon did not offer easy under clock down volt the last round.

I know side hack could build a more efficient miner with quality chips.

A lot of people are anti Asian when it comes to asics.

I personally do not care where gear is made or where chips are made.
But I do care that you won't sell chips to people that want them.
By you I mean every ASIC builder simply won't part with chips.

I understand you want to make money , but having your chips in other peoples designs would make you money not cost you money.

I also understand you can't tell us all the why of your selling tactics. There are restrictions. Set by your company I don't think help your company long term.

Miner develop needs a large number of technical support by us, we do this in avalon 1,2,3,and 4. NO successful cases, except for some clones in first and second gen.

Just remember at least 75 percent of all ASIC gear is in China.
Not safe to have all your eggs in one basket.
Suppose USA elects Donald Trump and he decides to default on the debt.
We all know,he has done this time and time again.
With his businesses.

Since USA owes more to,China then any country it would rock your world.
It would be nice to know more of your gear was in another spot then China.
In case there is a lot turmoil due to the default.

Also multiple plants with chips and build gear protects you from earthquakes floods etc.



This is business competition, Chinese manufactures just win this round. For miner design and production, I don't see there is any chance for out China vender (now). Also, China is really really big country, don't care about earthquakes and floods. Smiley
3  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Email from Avalon on: May 14, 2016, 04:33:27 AM
Any way I can get any information from you guys about the A7 chip? Or even the A6 chip? Not a single one of my inquiries about anything have been responded to since last June so I gave up after about six months of trying.

I had set up a big sale of Avalon4 units between Canaan-Creative and a guy I was consulting for who was starting a farm. He ended up never paying for the order (a problem the guy had often, which is why I use the past tense in regard to my dealing with him; I was tired of facilitating his laziness screwing people) so I assume I've been officially spurned on my deadbeat client's behalf but I'd really like that to change.

Sense miner design and production become a very difficult (mainly about cost, timing, supply chain, manufacture, software, etc...)job, I hardly believe any 3rd party can do a competitive design. I think anyone (who is not in present industry )should give up for self-miner-production-for-self-mining . Or you have different opinion?
4  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Email from Avalon on: May 14, 2016, 03:20:40 AM
Smiley

Interesting thread. Any questions?
It may have already been asked (that was sarcasm, by the way)... when are we going to see a working new miner that we can purchase? Smiley

Is there any consideration for upgrade path for existing mining hardware - i.e. board replacement?

I have 8 avalon 6's

It would be nice if the board could be set to the old heatsink and the case, fan, internal controller all were used along with the 2 heat sinks.

The savings on shipping would be huge.

Impossible.

A7 is a very different (much much more optimized ) design. In both ASIC and system side. So... like every time...  Smiley

Smiley

Interesting thread. Any questions?

When will we see a 16nm Avalon miner? What is the target $/GH and W/GH?

Sooner or later.  Smiley
5  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Email from Avalon on: May 13, 2016, 07:16:18 AM
 Smiley

Interesting thread. Any questions?
6  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: [Review] Avalon 6 Miner - Winter Mining - Notlist3d - Also FAQ and Help on: November 29, 2015, 12:53:50 PM


From what you have said am I right in thinking that it is not correct that the "chip needs to run at 75C for optimal efficiency" but more that 75c is the Max temperature?


Rich


For safty, we test it under ~ 85C, okey for some days. But ~90C is not good.

For performance, we find ~65-70C maybe better for both performance and efficiency.

ng
7  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: [Review] Avalon 6 Miner - Winter Mining - Notlist3d - Also FAQ and Help on: November 29, 2015, 08:46:02 AM
Can you give a brief explanation of the temperate issue that is being discussed, does the miner really need to run at a minimum of75C ? Also an outline of the algorithm that SmartSpeed is using would be very instructive?


Thanks


Rich

About temperate:

Next Cgminer software will adjust the default target tempature to ~68-70C. 75C is safe but a little high (too clost to the cut-off tempature).
Also, taget tempature can be set by user in next cgminer update.

About smartspeed:

This is a very complex system, partly built in the ASIC. Will add new algorithm in software side to optimize down clock and under voltege
condition later (may not finish in next update). But fully disable smartspeed is not recommend (will course a very high DH% and lost
20-50% real speed), so there will not a "DISABLE" switch.

ng
8  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: [Review] Avalon 6 Miner - Winter Mining - Notlist3d - Also FAQ and Help on: November 29, 2015, 08:26:21 AM
 Smiley

Hello guys, I'm reading the threads.

Right now the Cgminer software and MM firmware are preliminary versions, they "works " but not fully optimized of course.
Except for you guys metioned (fan control, voltage monitor, smartspeed, etc), there are also some other small bugs there,
We will try to release some updates soon.

ng
9  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Avalon 6 Vs Antminer S7, which one you will choose? on: October 29, 2015, 05:50:54 PM

So here is the real problem.

I only have a very limited test machines in hand, will try to answer this in the near future.

But every machines are different. will have more and more performance difference when the voltage going down...

ng


I appreciate that undervolting / underclocking will have variable results across machines. However it would be very useful to have an indication as to what is possible?


Thank You

Rich

The difference maybe up to 50%....

Also, I think the "tweak" of Avalon6 will be extremely easy. set a top frequency, set a target temperature, finish. The machine will find a best frequency and fan speed by your setting.
10  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Avalon 6 Vs Antminer S7, which one you will choose? on: October 29, 2015, 05:43:06 PM
About under voltage, the marking of "11.8-12.2V" means this miner will have a 3.65T (+- 10%) of the performance, we test it under this voltage. You can run it under a 11V PSU, and will get a better efficiency performance but slower speed. The hardware and software is fully support this case. but I think the lowest voltage is ~10V.

ng



That is excellent that it can be underclocked & undervolted. Do you have a table of Clock Frequency, Supply Voltage, TH/s & J/GH ?

Rich

So here is the real problem.

I only have a very limited test machines in hand, will try to answer this in the near future.

But every machines are different. will have more and more performance difference when the voltage going down...

ng
11  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Avalon 6 Vs Antminer S7, which one you will choose? on: October 29, 2015, 05:31:56 PM
hmmm... interesting thread.


Sorry, i don't mean to angrily bash your product even before it came out. I understand that production costs are productions costs and you want to avoid selling at a loss like SP did with the SP20.

I'm just struggling to understand the pricing scheme.

Miner manufactures just sell the rigs at the highest price which can make most of the money.

In China, a fair price for this stage of instock rigs (~0.25-0.3W/Ghs) is ~ 2200RMB/Ths, it's about 345$/Ths. exclude of shipping. By this price, you can sell as many as you want of them. So...

ng


QUESTION  can this be down clocked and under volted like the 4.1?

downclock: certainly

voltage: this is a string design...

I see, thanks for your replies, it does make sense, since in the end, it does not matter what is profitable to me, its about whats profitable for others. Thus it make sense for the miners to be so expensive if in China they can be bought out easily at 345$/TH/s.

For your second replies, you seem to mean it is not very prone to being undervolted because it is a string design. However it is possible to down volt the S5 by using 9-11v PSU's.

Is it simply not supported by the chips?

In China, I think most of the buyers now have nearly free electricity. So they can have profit much easier. I think this is why mining rigs' price are higher than you guys think.

About under voltage, the marking of "11.8-12.2V" means this miner will have a 3.65T (+- 10%) of the performance, we test it under this voltage. You can run it under a 11V PSU, and will get a better efficiency performance but slower speed. The hardware and software is fully support this case. but I think the lowest voltage is ~10V.



Lol yup.

I'm young, but I'm a chemical engineer and have worked a lot of shitty sales. High ticket 2k + machines. I've never seen a true cost to manufacture over 20%. Ever. Think Kirby vacuums. Fitness machines. Printers. Heck cars. It's nothing new. Its like that on every industry but in this one it's worse. I hope antminer reads this, too.

These machines sound juicy. Potential game changers for the little guy at home, but how the market is turning? People will be in the marketplace in a few months trying to sell them used at retail too lol

you can you up, no can no bb.
ng
12  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Avalon 6 Vs Antminer S7, which one you will choose? on: October 29, 2015, 05:17:02 PM
hmmm... interesting thread.


Sorry, i don't mean to angrily bash your product even before it came out. I understand that production costs are productions costs and you want to avoid selling at a loss like SP did with the SP20.

I'm just struggling to understand the pricing scheme.

Miner manufactures just sell the rigs at the highest price which can make most of the money.

In China, a fair price for this stage of instock rigs (~0.25-0.3W/Ghs) is ~ 2200RMB/Ths, it's about 345$/Ths. exclude of shipping. By this price, you can sell as many as you want of them. So...

ng


QUESTION  can this be down clocked and under volted like the 4.1?

downclock: certainly

voltage: this is a string design...
13  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Avalon 6 Vs Antminer S7, which one you will choose? on: October 29, 2015, 05:10:50 PM
hmmm... interesting thread.


Sorry, i don't mean to angrily bash your product even before it came out. I understand that production costs are productions costs and you want to avoid selling at a loss like SP did with the SP20.

I'm just struggling to understand the pricing scheme.

Miner manufactures just sell the rigs at the highest price which can make most of the money.

In China, a fair price for this stage of instock rigs (~0.25-0.3W/Ghs) is ~ 2200RMB/Ths, it's about 345$/Ths. exclude of shipping. By this price, you can sell as many as you want of them. So...what can I say...

ng
14  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Avalon 6 Vs Antminer S7, which one you will choose? on: October 29, 2015, 04:23:55 PM
hmmm... interesting thread.

15  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Avalon 6 Vs Antminer S7, which one you will choose? on: October 23, 2015, 06:57:18 AM
sorry guys, on avalon6S, my major design goal is to lower the cost and keep it stable & reliable at the same time.

look, most of your attention is price, price, price. how can i waste any more cents on user expreiences?  Undecided

ng

Only some few ones shout price price price.

Look, there are 3 pages following mentioned "price " dozens of times. So I'm right. Grin


The picture you got is a prototype. Final product will be natural steel color, not painted.

About noise, I just did a short test in my lab. It's ~70db @ 1M, full fan speed (~3800rpm), include
a noisy server PSU. Air in-take temp is ~ 30C, board temp is ~ 72C. Will significantly lower the
noise by lower the fan rpm, but the ambient temperature should be low.

In this design, I leave the fan out of the case, in order to change the fan fast. This is a very important feature for large facilities.

About price and delivery plan, I will not announce business information here. But I think there will no long wait.
16  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Would i be better off waiting for the 16nm miners? on: October 20, 2015, 04:08:55 PM
~

Compare to original Chinese verion of the news, it's 0.87B/T

http://www.8btc.com/bw-14nm-chip
17  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Would i be better off waiting for the 16nm miners? on: October 17, 2015, 10:38:30 AM
Also, why you metioned Innosilicon? I haven't hear about them for really a long time.  Huh

Because they are the only company who have publicly announced consumer sales of 14nm mining chips with their A3's, unlike Bitmain and SP-Tech who are staying with 28nm for the time being.

sources?  Huh

Lk - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1033676.0

BW  - https://www.bw.com/pool/miner

They teamed up with BW.   There are some big moves that happened.  Are you still with avalon?

Avalon is a project name. My company is Canaan-creative. Bitcoin mining is still my primary job.

LK / BW is totally different form Innosilicon. As I know, LK/BW is designing the chips under their own control. 

Good luck to their first chips.  Smiley

ng

18  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Would i be better off waiting for the 16nm miners? on: October 17, 2015, 06:15:26 AM
Also, why you metioned Innosilicon? I haven't hear about them for really a long time.  Huh

Because they are the only company who have publicly announced consumer sales of 14nm mining chips with their A3's, unlike Bitmain and SP-Tech who are staying with 28nm for the time being.

sources?  Huh
19  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Would i be better off waiting for the 16nm miners? on: October 17, 2015, 04:53:27 AM

ng,

Thank you for coming in and commenting on many of the threads, it is nice to have industry insight from professionals such as yourself.

I personally believe that the "arms race" with Bitfury and KNC is more PR and marketing than real facts. All we really know for certain is that they are increasing their hashrate, not that they are meeting the specs that they claim. 

Would you agree that with the low price of electricity many of these large farms are likely able to obtain, the $/GH can be just as or more relevant as the W/GH in terms of profit? For that reason, I wouldn't think 14/16nm is going to be a cost-effective before the next ~12 months given it's infancy compared to 28nm at this time.  If it was, one would think Innosilicon would have taped out by now.

It's much easier to get a low price of electricity than study out a high efficiency chip.

If the electricity is ~ 0.02~0.03$, nobody care about the power consuption. ~0.3W/G and ~0.15W/G almost the same.

Bitfury advertise their 0.07W/g 16nm chips , but gear up their ~0.25W/G 28nm chips in their own farm. So I think Bitfury is a wise man.

Also, why you metioned Innosilicon? I haven't hear about them for really a long time.  Huh

ng


20  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Avalon 6 Vs Antminer S7, which one you will choose? on: October 17, 2015, 04:44:57 AM
In general.

Avalon didn't sell products in a loss, we just stop production when it's not competitive enough.
Then you see the Avalon4.1's cost very high so the retail price can not go down. (~2000RMB at last I remember)

For sp20s, I did a very carefully review on it. I think their marginal cost is close to ~2000USD. Any NREs are NOT included.
It means sp-tech sell them at about 15~20% of their cost.

Bitmain did a very good job on the tradeoff about price, performance, reliability and UE. This is worth learning for all miner manufacturers.

About avalon6S, I think it's a miner designed for big mining field. We did a lot of job on mining farm management systems in the past year.

I have a plan to do a low noise DCDC solution miner (Avalon6P )for home, but it's sure will have a higher price (30% cost increase) and
lower efficiency (5-8% decrease) compare to a "string" solution. Also it's far more difficult to design & manufacture.

So the reality let me pause.  Undecided

ng
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