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961  Economy / Speculation / Re: Warning: How many of you Bears have ever been a victim of a Short Squeeze? on: October 27, 2011, 10:15:04 PM
btw, i haven't seen a single trade go off on mtgoxlive for a while now. are his computers congested from all the traffic?
Naw, there's just infinite dark pool resistance on both sides of the magic number 2.92466 Smiley

he discontinued dark pools months ago.

Don't forget, Bitcoinica is also a dark pool.
962  Economy / Speculation / Re: Warning: How many of you Bears have ever been a victim of a Short Squeeze? on: October 27, 2011, 04:21:39 PM
give us some stats won't be a serious trouble for Zhoutong. It's a shame he didn't do this.

Please send an email to support@bitcoinica.com to request for stats. If you are holding more than 1,000 USD, we are glad to talk with you more.

Otherwise, since Bitcoinica is linked to Mt. Gox, it's very easy to capture our trading algorithm if we announce everything to the public. Bitcoin is a very small market and Bitcoinica has a significant portion of trades.

We have been in net long (6,000 BTC to 15,000BTC range) for the past 7days.

We will solve the problem in the next big release. You can expect some more stats from us.
963  Economy / Marketplace / Re: Bitcoinica - Advanced Bitcoin Trading Platform on: October 27, 2011, 02:13:33 PM
Twice now, I've created a limit order, set the amount and the price and submit forgetting to select "Buy" or "Sell". I don't know what Bitcoinica assumes, that I want to buy by default, or to automatically buy if higher than market and sell if lower, but I would have assumed (and would appreciate) the following:

If I make a LIMIT order, and the price is above the current ask, then I probably intend to set a future SELL order. If I set a price lower than the current bit, I intended a future BUY order. If I expected immediate execution, I would have made a MARKET order.

Similar logic should be assumed for STOPs. If I set a stop that is above the current ask, then Bitcoinica should assume I mean a BUY STOP. Whereas if I set a stop below the current bid, Bitcoin should assume I mean a SELL STOP. (I don't know if this is currently the case, because I have yet to make stop mistakes (I think) Cheesy )

Thank you for your feedback. We will definitely improve our UI in the next release to at least warn users when their orders may be executed immediately.

For the current release, the buy or sell ratio buttons don't assume anything. If you enter -50 and ignore the rest, it'll be a sell order. Basically, if you choose sell, it will reverse the sign of the amount. It's for simplicity.
964  Economy / Marketplace / Re: Bitcoinica - Advanced Bitcoin Trading Platform on: October 27, 2011, 02:00:19 PM
No fees??  Cheesy

Every transaction with 1.3% spread means that 10 transactions are a win of 13% and in 100 transactions 130% !!

I donīt need such trading platforms, i donīt need leverage trading and some speculative shit. Maybe short-selling could be a possibility to stabilize the own bitcoin depot.

AFAIK, Camp BX charges 2% for margin trading.

Also, the 1.3% spread is only the average value for recent market conditions. Spreads may vary. We have seen spreads more than 3% or less than 0.2%, depending on the actual market liquidity. You have the complete choice over when to trade and how much to trade.

You also have to consider the direction you are trading. Sometimes either buying or selling price is more favorable than the other based on the latest price.
965  Economy / Marketplace / Re: Bitcoinica - Advanced Bitcoin Trading Platform on: October 27, 2011, 12:10:55 AM
Thanks Zhoutong,

I see my stops get triggered much more easily than I intend. I'm curious if you are willing to discuss your thought on spreads, your risk margins, cut, future volume:spread expectations, etc. I fully respect your need and desire to make money. I wonder, however, if you wouldn't make more money by reducing your rake. I strongly believe I (and most any active trader) would make more trades (by an order of magnitude or two) if the spread were one half or a quarter.

Thank you for your feedback. Currently we are unable to provide more information on the spread because we don't have any formal partnership with Mt. Gox. A disclosure of such information may lead to abuse of our system. (It has happened once, but we quickly changed the algorithm to a more sophisticated one.)

Currently you can view the average spread over the last 24 hours on our home page.

In the future, when we are able to settle the metrics and algorithms to a more robust level, we will definitely disclose as much as we can to ensure transparency.

If you are interested in some specifics of our data available, please send an email to support@bitcoinica.com. We are willing to discuss with you.
966  Economy / Marketplace / Re: Bitcoinica - Advanced Bitcoin Trading Platform on: October 26, 2011, 10:37:30 PM
Hi Zhoutong,

It's taken me a while to go from hating to loving Bitcoinica. I was very often not quite sure what each feature did and I risked loss just experimenting. I feel comfortable with the order types and mechanisms, but I still think the UX and explanations could be better.

For example, when I set a Stop Loss: "Your order is executed when the market price is higher (buying), lower (selling) or equal than your specified price." Is the market price the average between bid and ask, or the ask when selling, or...?

Cheers,
Netrin

class Order < ActiveRecord::Base
  def current_price
    current_price = Ticker.where(:pair => pair).last.selling if amount >= 0
    current_price = Ticker.where(:pair => pair).last.buying if amount < 0
  end
end

Here, selling == ask, buying == bid in common context.
967  Economy / Speculation / Re: Warning: How many of you Bears have ever been a victim of a Short Squeeze? on: October 26, 2011, 03:31:05 PM
>1300 logged onto mtgoxlive, the highest i've ever seen, and the price is slowly moving UP with a bid wall of $125K.  i like SLOW PAINFUL SQUEEZES. 

If you are really so confident, please buy on Bitcoinica with margin.

I can give you $1 to try it out.

my balance would exceed your reserves.

Alright, please just deposit $4,000.

I will give you $20,000 tradable balance. Let's see.
968  Economy / Speculation / Re: How many of you have been Zhoutonged? on: October 26, 2011, 03:10:11 PM
Zhou:  how's this volatility affecting your clients?

Those who trade on margin have already been wiped out long ago.

I don't see any significant problems even if the price increase to $4 or decrease to $1.5.

how about BitMagic who's been bragging about his margined acct?

Sorry, I can't disclose specific account information. You can ask him directly.
969  Economy / Speculation / Re: Warning: How many of you Bears have ever been a victim of a Short Squeeze? on: October 26, 2011, 02:03:46 PM
>1300 logged onto mtgoxlive, the highest i've ever seen, and the price is slowly moving UP with a bid wall of $125K.  i like SLOW PAINFUL SQUEEZES. 

If you are really so confident, please buy on Bitcoinica with margin.

I can give you $1 to try it out.
970  Economy / Speculation / Re: How many of you have been Zhoutonged? on: October 26, 2011, 02:01:48 PM
Zhou:  how's this volatility affecting your clients?

Those who trade on margin have already been wiped out long ago.

I don't see any significant problems even if the price increase to $4 or decrease to $1.5.
971  Economy / Speculation / Re: 10 BTC sell orders every 0.0005 BTC. any ideas? on: October 26, 2011, 01:37:29 PM
Observed the same thing on the buy side.

Yeah, see them now.

This is providing some good liquidity.

Maybe a big player (or group) is aiming to stabilize price a bit?

Providing liquidity like this can also earn very good profit if the fluctuation continues.

True. However, don't forget the trading fee.

What other implications would this have on the market if kept up?

I could imagine it'd instill some confidence.

The trading fee isn't that significant.

If I buy at 2.8, I only need the price to increase to 2.80756 - 2.8168 to make a profit. (Depending on fee tier)
972  Economy / Speculation / Re: 10 BTC sell orders every 0.0005 BTC. any ideas? on: October 26, 2011, 01:13:37 PM
Observed the same thing on the buy side.

Yeah, see them now.

This is providing some good liquidity.

Maybe a big player (or group) is aiming to stabilize price a bit?

Providing liquidity like this can also earn very good profit if the fluctuation continues.
973  Economy / Speculation / Re: 10 BTC sell orders every 0.0005 BTC. any ideas? on: October 26, 2011, 12:27:56 PM
Observed the same thing on the buy side.
974  Economy / Speculation / Re: BTC/USD rates since Bitcoinica's launch on: October 26, 2011, 01:50:47 AM
Zhoutong, I thought the graphs were excellent. Thank you. However, of all of the combinations, the missing one would have been most valuable. Would you mind linking to a super-long log chart? Cheers!

The super-long chart is in log-scale.

Did you see it wrongly or are you asking for super-long linear?
975  Economy / Speculation / Re: BTC/USD rates since Bitcoinica's launch on: October 26, 2011, 01:48:10 AM
make the charts a little smaller and link to the full size image. they are obnoxiously huge.

Secondary click -> Open Image in New Tab, or simply save it.

976  Economy / Speculation / BTC/USD rates since Bitcoinica's launch on: October 25, 2011, 06:36:10 PM
Red: Selling rate   Green: Buying rate

Linear-scale



Log-scale



Super-long

977  Economy / Speculation / Re: How many of you have been Zhoutonged? on: October 25, 2011, 02:24:29 PM
Bitcoin is so volatile I really don't see why people want to short it.  Today we saw the price go from $2.83 to $2.44 to $3 and back to $2.64 within 2 hours.  One super spike can wipe out most positions. 

Pick any moment in time and bitcoin could be worth 20% less or 20% more within minutes.  Impossible to predict.

Today's volatility is indeed amazing.

Just look at Bitcoinica's volume today.
978  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: There's nothing wrong with trading Bitcoins on: October 25, 2011, 01:01:22 PM
I do fear for bitcoin to have a future as a trade facilitating currency, rather than as casino chips,  someone is going to have to come up with a bright idea for bitcoin 2.0.

No somebody just needs to come up with a way to provide hedging for merchants.  Obviously this involves some risk and it is risk they can be compensated with.  I would have no problem holding assets in bitcoins if I could be at least partially shielded by volatility.  I have no problem giving up some of the upside potential for downside protection.  I don't need bitcoin to go up 10,000% a year to make money as a miner. 


An ever better system would be one which partners with a pool and allows members to be paid in both bitcoins & cash (to cover electrical costs).  By heding part of the posistion and locking in a cash rate which covers electrical cost miners would have more confidence in keeping some of their assets in bitcoins (and bitcoin economy).

A Bitcoin 2.0 is doomed just like alt-chains are doomed.  Bitcoin achieved massive community interest and is still unknown by 999,999 out of 1 mil people on the planet.  Any version 2.0 would have an even tinier base.  Any alt coin has an even tinier base.  Combine that with the inability to "stop" Bitcoin 1.0 the idea of a reboot is simply fail.  It won't happen.  Ever.

Trying to fight speculation without govt decree is futile.  If someone can do something highly repeatable and gain x% they will.  It is human nature.



This is exactly what I'm doing.

Bitcoinica is a good foundation.
979  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: There's nothing wrong with trading Bitcoins on: October 25, 2011, 07:26:16 AM
zhoutong, you seem in complete denial of the problems caused by excessive speculation.
the comparison with forex is somewhat flawed. Even if 70% of the currency trade would be speculative, in the world of our fiat currencies, there is an immense real economy underneath, and more importantly, we have a counter balance: central banks. As much as most people here despise them, at least they can and constantly do act to counter bubbles and busts created by speculation, by buying or selling foreign currencies and other means of dampening the volatility, thereby protecting their exports and trade from excessive price swings that speculators want and try to create.. At least it used to be that way, but speculation is becoming so rampant that even central banks are running out of ammunition and the result is not stability,its ever increasing instability. You have to be completely blind not to see this.

In bitcoin world its different, and in fact its infinitely worse; not only is the ratio between commerce and speculation pretty much zero, there is not even a central bank or any other mechanism to counter the volatility. There is no possibility to regulate and limit speculative positions or leverage. The results speak for themselves. Anyone who wants to make a case for financial regulation only has to point to the bitcoin experiment to prove their case. If our fiat currencies would see only a 1/100th the volatility that bitcoin sees, the impact on the real world economy would be nothing less than catastrophic.

Speculation is useful, no one argues against that, but only up to the point where its no longer predictive and guided by the underlying economy and its prospects, but instead guiding the economy and predicting itself. At that point, speculation becomes gambling and the first victim is commerce.

I don't deny the problems of excessive speculation. Everything you said is true.

However, no commerce is no commerce. It's not speculators' fault. If all speculators leave Bitcoin today, there will be still no commerce.

That's why I said we should all focus on what we do, and stop blaming others.

I believe that there are many merchants out there are part-time speculators as well, because everyone wants to grow his own wealth, ceteris paribus. Speculation is what made us today, and we are now looking forward to our tomorrow. It just doesn't make sense to me to ask everyone use Bitcoin as a currency. If everyone is using Bitcoin as a currency, Bitcoin will never be a useful currency. It will just be hackers' monopoly dollars.
980  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: There's nothing wrong with trading Bitcoins on: October 25, 2011, 06:31:47 AM
But speculation isn't entirely worthless. Greed is human nature, to a large extent, short sellers, day traders and HFT bots actually counter human greed because they believe in price convergence. About 80% of trading in forex market is speculative, but they indeed make the rest 20% better off.

I always believe that the best way to counter bubbles is HFT. HFT bots catch tiny profits and destroy the dreams of greedy "investors". What's buy-low-sell-high? It's price stability.

At the beginning, speculative trading may cause volatility because of the market power being controlled by a few hands. So we need more speculators. They provide liquidity for everyday bitcoin transactions. They bring Bitcoin closer to our real world economy.

Without speculation, we can hardly produce any goods or services in Bitcoins efficiently.

If there's anything harm about speculators, it means we need more of them, not less, in absolute figures. The way to make the pie bigger is to convince real world merchants to accept Bitcoin, but not criticize the speculators and ask them to provide services instead.

Few points:

#1: Hoarding bitcoins is not like putting money in a bank. The money on "forex" is not being hoarded...its being put to use. The forex acct doesnt take physical receipt of the money and just sit on it.....unlike you. At best, the money you get is working for the govt economy, not bitcoin.

#2: Bitcoin speculators dont provide liquidity....all traders do is seize up the supply and hope the price rises....creating an artifical bubble of higher prices....making it more EXPENSIVE and thus less work(and trading) gets done. All they do is create paper profits and losses, not economic gains. The only people you get to trade are more speculators.

#3:  The problem with speculative bubbles of your kind is they are leveraged....so not only is something amiss, we dont even know if you can handle the exposure and all your contracts can be unwound. That includes depending on you not to bet against your customers.

Its kind of interesting that you are so against providing your bitcoins to be put to use. Im always looking for that in any currency, since that means interest on my holdings. You make it sound like this is OWS(Occupy WallSt)....not the case. A growing bitcoin economy only makes your position better in the long run.



0. This post is not about Bitcoinica, or leveraged speculation in general. I was saying that the mindset that Bitcoin is only useful when we can provision goods and services without having to change Bitcoins into other currencies is not correct.

1. If you want to grow national economy, just use fiat currencies. There shouldn't be any difference between the fiat economy and Bitcoin economy if you really use Bitcoin as a currency. The problem of Bitcoins is that people want to isolate them from the real world. In the very short run, holding USD and holding BTC make no difference to everyone. The Bitcoin economy is not so advanced that banks (or e-wallets or exchanges) can use the deposits elsewhere for investment. At this moment, most people think these are scams.

2. Last week I bought a website for $10,000. The seller and I both agreed that PayPal's awful and international wire is too slow and inconvenient. So we decided to go with Bitcoins even though the guy didn't know anything about it. He was surprised that I had managed to sell 2,000 BTC for $10,000 in a few hours. Who bought those coins? Speculators! Well, another guy is on board. Who else can provide liquidity? If there's no speculators, merchants can't sell their revenues and make products. Also, if you really use Bitcoin as a currency, what does high prices mean to you? Nothing. I was encouraging merchants not to afraid to exchange Bitcoins to other currencies, because Bitcoin is not an investment vehicle for merchants. If the market is stable, they hold, if not, they buy and sell - it's perfectly natural.

3. I know my risk. You don't have to tell me that I shouldn't take too much risk.

I'm never against putting Bitcoins into use. When did I? I against the view that speculators are bad for Bitcoin. If we want to make Bitcoin economy a bigger pie, we shouldn't criticize speculators and investors. They are a very important part to our economy.

Why the registered users doubled in May? Because of media and speculation. At least it makes a lot of people suddenly aware of this stuff. It also reminded me, who will be developing a series of apps to contribute to the community, that Bitcoin is something noteworthy. (I was aware of Bitcoin more than a year ago, I mined some coins (a few hundred) and lost them because they had no value to me. Bitcoin came to my attention again when its value is more than $1.)

The market is always correct. It's just something that everyone follows. It makes no sense to determine the nature of a particular trade - the nature doesn't determine the value. Speculators are the people who "wow" the new adopters, including me in the past. I know the economic importance, philosophical value, technical elegance and social effect of Bitcoin, but at the bare minimum, I know it's something worth trading. We simply can't expect anyone to appreciate a currency without showing them the money and the market.

What's unique about Bitcoin in the very short-term? (Most people think short-term only when they decide whether or not to learn it more. Early adopters of Bitcoin should all be curious, adventurous and open-minded. So they may think long-term. But it's entirely different when we convince others around us to adopt it.)

- Controlled money supply. (I don't think 99% of general population cares. They can't even link the increase in price to the increase of money supply.)

- Sending money in seconds. (Most people send money for consumption. We have credit cards.)

- Irreversible transactions. (Consumers think reversibility a protection. Merchants always strive for conversion rates.)

- No government control. (Over 99% don't care.)

- Unique products? No. Unique services? Hardly any.

- Speculation and investment! This is the main entrance of new Bitcoiners. Many people around me care about a "diversified currency portfolio", and they all agree Bitcoin should be in their portfolios, but they don't really care about the rest.

Bitcoin has the potential to make people feel their lives are being wasted with taxes, inflation and endless debts. But at the very beginning, what we need is:

- Miners to protect the network

- Speculators to provide liquidity

- Investors to increase the value

- Organizations to accept donations

- Consumers to buy the products

- Merchants to sell the products

Without anyone of the above, Bitcoin economy is just a joke.

So, if you are a speculator, good luck with your trade. If you are a merchant, keep selling. If you are a consumer, try to spend Bitcoins if you can. If you are a wealthy investor, make Bitcoin a part of your portfolio. Whoever you are, invite others to join, and we should all do what we love doing.

The human economy is a complex system with full of decentralized decision making, self-interests and property rights. For it to work, we shouldn't stop disrupting others' work. An economy is just a natural mixture of different human behaviors, and Bitcoin deserves to be the same.
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