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1  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated on: July 05, 2020, 09:42:28 PM
The 14 GFC shares are in a "DeVCoin Foundation" account on HORIZON, NHZ-M58F-Y78J-4DA6-75UUA

The "DVC Holdings" account on HORIZON, NHZ-YC2W-ZDCP-NS4G-4CEGK, is the "treasury" the Galactic Milieu uses to compute the value of a DeVCoin.

The current relative values of other things in terms of DeVCoins is at http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/latestrates.inc

Other tables of values are linked to menu at http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/digitalisassets.html including historical values from previous "Latest Rates include file"s.

Lists of assets on HORIZON and STELLAR platforms are at http://makemoney.knotwork.com/

It is worth mentioning that the "treasuries" are not comprehensive collections of all of a currency's assets; they typically also have at least one "slush fund" if only as a place to keep any of their own coin they have on hand, and many also have units of the abstract economy units used in the Galactic Milieu as abstractions of small, medium and large businesses.

Plus of course the GHC asset, General Hosting Corp aka General Holding Corp, can only be held by FreeCiv civilisations so is not implemented as assets on HORIZON nor STELLAR but nonetheless is added into the treasuries for purposes of the value calculations. DVC will need some of those in order to start up a FreeCiv civilisation as not only do you have to be a civilisation to hold them you also have to hold them to become a civilisation. The ideal is that you hold enough of them that their increase in value as you pay civilisation-hosting fees offsets those fees so that they hopefully amount more to a kind of savings, saved within the value of the GHC shares you hold, than an actual fee in effect. Although as and when GHC does incur hostings costs those will eat slightly into the accumulated funds, it is expected the value will grow for some time since the fees are based on the idea we will eventually have total immersion 3-D virtual reality representations of all the civilisations so the fees are intended to be enough to represent all the "square miles" your civilisation controls according to FreeCiv in something along the lines of Open Simulator or other free open source virtual-reality system.

Basically you ideally want to own at least as large a fraction of GHC's shares as you control of the total "square miles" controlled by civilisations on all the FreeCiv planets.

The steps from FreeCiv scale maps to immersive virtual reality are intended to include Crossfire RPG maps of FreeCiv tiles that contain cities or units first, then eventually Crossfire RPG (2-D tiles on individual-character scale) of entire FreeCiv planets, then some kind of terrain drawing algoritmm to make 3-D immersive versions of all that Crossfire RPG territory.

Last time I checked the civilisation hosting only amounted to maybe about (monthly in real Earth-months) CAD$3.50 for a single-city initial civilisation up to over CAD$14000 for a large civilisation such as the Brits of the planet known as B29 or the Canucks of the planet C29. So it can get quite expensive for large civilisations which is part of giving them incentives to be active in the Crossfire RPG and CoffeeMUD MUD layers to help exploit their territory more fully.

-MarkM-

P.S. Also there is a handy tool online for calculating stuff from the Latest Rates data: https://latestrates.traxo.me/





2  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANNOUNCE] New alternate cryptocurrency - Geist Geld on: July 05, 2020, 12:48:03 AM
I never even tried testnets, I figure I am running on mainnet.

I run nodes at LFM.knotwork.com and at UFBSH.no-ip.org.

It does have value because it is set up in the Galactic Milieu's "treasuries" system not just as a currency with a "treasury" but also as a "reserve currency" others can hold in their own "treasury" toward the value of their own coin.

Its "treasury" account on the HORIZON platform is NHZ-LPYW-WJKM-4AN3-AUWXS

A look at the Latest Rates include file ( http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/latestrates.inc ) shows GeistGeld (XGG) is curently calculated (based on the "treasuries") to be worth 31.65606456 DeVCoins.

It can be traded on the HORIZON and STELLAR platforms, see http://makemoney.knotwork.com/

-MarkM-

3  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL! on: July 04, 2020, 05:29:37 PM

Well the coin is definitely alive and in use, it not only has its own "treasury" on the HORIZON network, account NHZ-XDR9-Y9WL-8E3Y-88M35, but is also implemented as a "reserve currency" that other such "treasuries" can use so that they can all count holdings of CLC toward the value of their own currency.

So far not a lot of them have actually done so, mostly I think it is the other currencies that were also implemented into the "treasuries" system lately that incorporated some CLC into their "treasury" since a bunch of the newly-implemented ones co-operated somewhat in getting themselves all set up.

This puts them a little ahead in terms of implementation of the "New Roman Denarius" that most-recently began to be implemented in that the NRD is so far only implemented as having a "treasury" from which to calculate its value and has not yet been added into those calculations as being itself a "reserve currency" for use in other "treasuries".

The "treasuries" system seems to work reasonably well after all these years in development but is still being tweaked, the current set of changes involves phasing out the use of shares in "treasuries", particularly the use of "finance corp" shares such as GFC (General Financial Corp) shares, mostly because shc shares, particularly GFC itself, have over the years of accumulating interest on debts become quite strong "leverage" items so we are phasing out the use of them in "treasuries" to limit the affect of all that interest on the values of all the "treasury" based currencies. Instead the "treasuries" will need to actually put some of whatever folks pay their debts with into the "treasury" if they want any of those earnings to count toward their "treasury" and thus toward the calculated relative value of their currency.

I have just now finished calculating the "Latest Rates" include-file, http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/latestrates.inc and uploaded it, am currently uploading the various tables and plots of historical values generated from it, it shows CLC's latest value in DeVCoins as CLCrate=34.94987343

(That is how many DeVCoins one CLC coin is computed to be worth based on the relative values of all the "treasuries" based currencies.)

-MarkM-

4  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL! on: June 10, 2020, 06:37:54 PM

Many/most old coins use an old Berkely DB for the wallet, as Bitcoin still does.

So I usually first use the instructions for Bitcoin, involving acticvating a repository that holds those as well as bitcoin itself, to get that old BDB 4.8 installed.

After that often old coins compile fine, at least the daemon; I almost never even attempt to build a GUI, since I mostly run coins on machines I "ssh" and 'sftp" to.

-MarkM-
5  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated on: June 10, 2020, 02:33:29 PM
Hmm well there are slot machines somewhere in Crossfire RPG, I have not tried them nor checked their code to see what kinds of odds they provide; and in CoffeeMUD there is a script for making a poker dealer which presumably implements a poker game of player or players versus dealer, but I do not recall seeing it in use so it might not ever have worked for all I know. But actual "gambling" can be a "hot button" possibly best avoided so never really dug into either of those options.

In CoffeeMUD though there is an entire crafting system and that is what I set it up to aim for rather than the usual or even expected running around killing monsters for loot. After all, who has so much loot they feel like just giving it away to passing adventurers?

Characters in CoffeeMUD are so productive in fact, even with simple things like foraging, woodchopping, mining and gemdigging, that just giving accounts away would be an ever-growing hole in the economy; so far we have been playtesting with an eye toward figuring out about how much stuff a top-level character can rake in in a real year in order to figure a reasonable yearly fee per account aimed at letting those who make full use of the entire year can profit from those who don't stick with it and give up before breaking even.

Meanwhile the accounts the players have are financed by their nation, clan, guild. society, association or suchlike: the group they are part of that is already active on a larger scale.

There are less crafting / gathering type things in Crossfire RPG but there are some, and more maps focussed on such things can be made, but the main question with those would be who is going to "foot the bill" of keeping them stocked? So far players do not seem to be "milking the system" a lot so the Crossfire RPG "rabbithole" into the Milieu is still open at no charge for folks to join, but a person could for example simply keep creating a character, dropping its starting gear, and deleting the character, over and over and over again. piling up lots of loot then send another character for it or create another new character and cart all the stuff off to a pawnshop to sell it. A bunch of people going hard at that might be able to become a sufficient hole in the economy to force us to close even that last free rabbit-hole though I suppose we could first try reducing the starting equipment or making more of it be "gifts of the gods" that vanish back to the gods when you drop it or give it or try to sell it.

Economic considerations along such lines were always a major part of the point of having nations, clans, guilds and such, "groups" in general, so that players already in the game would finance bringing in new players by recruiting potential players into their "groups".

So basically right now one hangs out in Crossfire RPG making friends and hoping a friend will finance one into farther levels of play or show one how to do well enough by oneself in Crossfire to bootstrap oneself farther.

But one thing I learned from watching the Cryptocurrency industry is that a lot of "players" are happy to just "play" the currency / asset markets without feeling any need nor desire to be playing some character on some world somewhere walking potentially dangerous streets to reach a market, bank or stock exchange at which the character would be doing such trading; pure abstract trading where you just go to a website and trade seems quite engrossing enough for a lot of people without necessarily even caring what planet the things they are trading are on and without even any "rail baron" type layer involving actually transporting the traded stuff from place to place, it is just traded right where it is in effect then the profits taken home to the non-game world. So just having lots of things to trade at lots of different prices with lots of different interactions behind the scenes (from the perspective of the players just trading on web based exchanges) affecting the relative prices is probably quite game enough for some demographics.

Heck there are entire styles / strategies of play that do not even really show much interest in background details at all, they just play the changes in price without particularly caring, it often seems, why those changes happen. ("Technical analysis" for instance maybe if I understand such terms correctly?)

If you know of free open source online game code that would be suitable to deploy I'd love to hear of it and check it out. I have looked at a LOT of free open source online games and am still looking.

-MarkM-
6  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated on: June 10, 2020, 05:18:13 AM
Ah well that of course brings us back to the idea they should be creating value for the coins/assets. Smiley

I think way back in the beginning it was hoped that by giving them the coins they would be motivated to include the coins somehow into their projects, maybe enhancing the value of the coins and, by having that currency in common, the ability of their project to interact with others enhancing the value of them all and so on.

We were also trying to support all the other coins that could be merged-mined alongside DeVCoin, and trying also to motivate the creation of "exchanges" where all those coins could be traded.

It likely still makes sense that the first free open source projects we should be "supporting" should be those coins, since from the start those who have been with us from the beginning have presumably been accumulating all of them in the course of their merged-mining, and those mining pools that offered merged-mining might also still have such coins and so on.

Also the platforms where we can trade them, such as HORIZON and Stellar.

HORIZON used to be on Poloniex, I managed to buy up quite a few of them back then, it fluctuated usually between about 33 satoshis to 133 satoshis back then. It would be useful to get it (its native coin, HZ) onto exchanges again since on the HORIZON platform all pairs involve HZ, it insinuates itself into all trades. Maybe FreiExchange can be convinced to list it? Part of what could be in it for them could be that maybe that way we can finally get DeVCoin's "spot price" on the exchange back up over one satoshi to get some volume moving there in DeVCoin; it might also lead to more I0Coin activity too. IXCoin is already nicely active and is already up over 800 satoshis so hey, maybe folks looking to "cash out" to fiat could buy IXCoins? Or of course they could buy Stellar Lumens with something? I tried to set up pairs on the Stellar platform of everything against Lumens as well as everything against DeVCoins, so maybe if there are not a lot of Lumens offered directly against DeVCoin you could consume a whole bunch of offers of other things against DeVCoin then those other things against Lumens?

I think someone posted something somewhere about InterStellar maybe even having a tool or something for multi-stage converting of things?

Basically what we should probably be supporting first-off are things that provide value to our multiverse of intertwined projects, those so far being a whole bunch of classic and antique and science-fiction-milieu coins, the HORIZON and Stellar platforms (both originally chosen due to their distribution methods both of which handed out lots of free coins of their native coin allowing us to get set up on those platforms), and the various free open source multiplayer online games we have so far found to actually work and found a way to weave into the Milieu.

Speaking of which, there is one called Galaxy of Drones that looks like it could be useable given enough scale (as in number of players) and backstory and such, IF we can do well enough at this to be able to incorporate seven new products into the mix. Its basic concept seems to be that it is possible to set up a galaxy in such a way that power can be shared across the galaxy, serving as currency, and seven different types of planets can be mined each primarily for one particular type of "fuel" used to generate the power. The "technology levels" are basically a progression from the least-efficient fuel (and therefor type of planet) toward the most-efficient as well as through a fairly short list of types of ships used to attack and defend the planets.

It has a "mothership" mechanism whereby each player has a "mothership" they originally start play with and to which they ship the seven types of fuel-substance for "sale"; so it looks like it could be fitted into a larger scheme from which those motherships were presumably sent and to which the "motherships" send those seven products as they are "sold" for the "power" that acts as both the local currency of that galaxy and the means of production of all the building types and ship types within that galaxy.

So basically all we would need to do would be to monitor the "sales" of those products at the motherships, and have the products vanished by each mothership in the course of those "sales" arrive in some larger scheme of things in the warehousing depots of who-ever each particular "mothership" is backed by in that larger scheme of things.

So basically we would have seven new kinds of assets, complete with a scheme whereby they are "mined" and ability of the "miners" to build fleets to attack each other and to defend their own mining operations (planets) and so on.

As a free open source online massively multiplayer game that seems to actually work it certainly qualifies to be incorporated into the Milieu, but it is maybe a bit TOO massive for our current level of development inasmuch as test-playing it I easily racked up hundreds of planets but it became quite time-consuming to maintain a huge empire in it given I have so many other things to do. It could use more automation tools to make it easier to run huge empires or a very large population of players to exploit an entire galaxy without eating up the entire lives of the exploiters.

So basically turn your question around: which free open source projects can we find ways to create value with, and how can we expand our repertoire of projects and types of projects we can do that with?

We should look at projects with an eye to how we can fit them into our growing economy of projects.

We use a couple of "O-game clones" for intergalactic mining, FreeCiv for planetary scale running of civilisations in the civilised galaxy or galaxies, Crossfire RPG for "rogue-like" two-dimensional individual-character scale operations on those civilised planets, CoffeeMUD for text-based and thus easily scrip-table  individual character scale operations, and Battle for Wesnoth for, so far, creating docudramas documenting history, though for years now Wesnoth is supposed to have been heading toward being able to actually create history by being able to manipulate persistent worlds (databases) instead of merely creating docudramas or carrying our small scale "duel" type operations involving small units of troops and such.

What other projects do you have in mind to support first, and what does each have to offer as an enhancement to what we have so far?

We were supporting Open Transactions because it had looked like it would give us a good platform, and also if it did so maybe even be able to be used as a zoom in on FreeCiv worlds to provide actual operating markets, banks and stock-exchanges so when a city builds such a bulding it could pop up an entire Open Transactions server per market, bank or stock-exhange making them actually functional beyond the mere abstractions they exist as in FreeCiv itself.

Since in FreeCiv we can save each game-turn, thus could in principle branch off different timelines from any saved game, Battle for Wesnoth offers the potential to create time-cadet operations whereby a player could change the outcomes of some turn on some planet and branch off a new timeline, if time travel ends up somehow sometime being discovered / developed.

And so on.

Let us hear about more potentially useful free open source projects we can put to good use...

... Like STEEM maybe? STEEM seems like it could be useful... Wink

With STEEM maybe we can reward people for creating masses of documention of what we already have going?

Folks could write about how they got into whatever facet of it all, what they found to be effective tactics for scaling up to some of the other facts and stuff like that? How and whay to create a Clan or Guild or Party or Society or Association, why one would choose to start such a thing using the Crossfire RPG interface rather than the COffeeMUD interface or vice-versa, gosh there is just so much folks could usefully write about...

-MarkM-
7  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated on: June 09, 2020, 08:15:44 PM
One thing I find awkward about "burning" coins is it makes it even harder to figure out how many of a coin actually exist.

It is bad enough having to deal with the ever-changing rates of minting of some coins without also trying to somehow figure out which coins already minted are still "in existence" and how many are in "lost or impossible addresses".

Please understand that the calculated values based on the "treasuries" use the number of coins minted to come up with the value per coin.

That means all the DeVCoins you have already minted, and probably even also all or most of those that will be minted in the next month or so, are all accounted for in that computed value; it is the value at which the "treasury" could buy every single DeVCoin minted so far and some that are still to be minted in the next little while.

Furthermore there is also at least one Slush Fund over and above the actual "treasury", so actually more DeVCoins than actually exist could be bought up at the calculated value.

So there is NO PROBLEM "backing" all the DeVCoins being minted. Go ahead and mint at the normal rate and sell them or donate them to the DVC Slush Fund in return for anything they happen to have on hand, or try to work out some kind of multi-step deal whereby they and you adjust what you hold in some way that arrives at you each having something to trade with one-another.

In effect you are not the only devcoin foundation, there can be many of them, but just the one single "treasury" all by itself accounts for the computed value of a DeVCoin in the "Latest Rates" include-file, a value that applies to each and every individual DeVCoin from the first one minted through the last one minted.

And by the way, "Traxo" has built a lovely tool for manipulating the "Latest Rates", take a look: https://latestrates.traxo.me/?from=IXC&to=I0C

That example URL he gave me happens to be one that shows the relative values of IXC and I0C according to the "Latest Rates".

You can use the page to relate any two of the assets. You can use it to find each "pair" on InterStellar's site, and you can use it to re-write the Latest Rates in terms of any arbitrary value you type in, so that for example if you decide that some asset XXX happens to be worth YYY you can get all the Rates priced in XXX by entering YYY as the arbitrary conversion number.

-MarkM-
8  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated on: June 05, 2020, 04:59:05 PM

I think that there is no silver-bullet for current Devcoin situation.


The "treasuries" system could be that silver bullet IF continued minting of new DeVCoins doesn't get used as simply a way to basically just try to "drain the treasury" by cashing out new DeVCoins constantly for stuff from the "treasury".

The "treasury" account being used to compute a value per coin for DeVCoins is NHZ-YC2W-ZDCP-NS4G-4CEGK on the HORIZON platform.

The "Latest Rates" include file ( http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/latestrates.inc ) is denominated in DeVCoins.

From that we can work backward to figure out what that might mean we could get for some DeVCoins by using the conversion rates of things we know we can sell on "exchanges":

For example in the file we see:

I0Crate=468.38334724
IXCrate=461.30183912

That tells us 468.38334724 DeVCoins should be worth whatever one I0Coin is worth and 461.30183912 DeVCoins should be worth whatever one IXCoin is worth.

We can look on FreiExchange to find one possible current value for I0Coins in terms of BitCoins, and for IXCoins we can look not only on FreiExchange but also on Yobit and maybe elsewhere too, those are the two exchanges I am currently working on building up buy-sides.

So you can divide 468.38334724 by whatever you think I0Coins are supposedly worth, or divide 461.30183912 by whatever you think IXCoins are supposedly worth to figure out how much DeVCoins supposedly ought to be worth according to this system.

Whether that much value can be sustained seems to depend largely upon how wisely minted DeVCoins are allocated, as in are they allocated to folks who just run out and dump them or on folks who actively work toward building up their buy-sides (since the buy-side is basically what reporting sites and aggregation sites and so on look at to decide value).

It would probably be very helpful to avoid thinking of the coins as some kind of money or thing-with-intrinsic-value and instead think of them as IOU tokens. When you hold them you are simply holding a stockpile of tokens you can issue as IOUs to other people; when you get them back they are just blank tokens again, useful to you only as tokens you can use again if you choose to represent another IOU.

I get the impression you keep trying to think of them as something of actual value, and of course just like blank disks of metal or paper or wood or whatever if they are useful to you as tokens, like poker chips or whatever, then ok there is maybe some intrinsic value in that, a box of poker chips is not free at the dollar-store or wherever, but they are just a tool for accounting. Think of every DeVCoin you do not have safely buried in concrete under the swimming-pool or whatever as a debt we need to buy back, and make sure if you do dig any up and hand them out that you do so in return for something that you can somehow make use of to redeem those debts or to put into the "treasury" or use on a buy-side to bolster the perceived value of the coin or somesuch.

Presumably the theory behind issuing them to developers of free open source software was presumably at least in part the idea that such software could, and hopefully even would, be used to "create value" in some way. So maybe it might still make sense to issue shares for running nodes of coins that have "too few" nodes, and bounties for updating the code of coins whose code is considered "too dated".

Apparently there is also a "Slush Fund" associated with that "treasury" too, we maintain "Slush Funds" alongside the treasuries as a place to keep any on hand of the coin the "treasury" is for so as not to have in a "treasury" any of the coin the "treasury" is for; but there are currently no DVC tokens in the "Slush Fund" just a thousand shares of DeVCorp.

DeVCorp is shown in the Latest Rates include-file currently as:

sDVCrate=938408.81116320

That shows how many DeVCoins one share of DeVCorp is currently computed to be worth.

So presumably the idea for that "Slush Fund" is to try to sell those DeVCorp shares to raise HZ with which to eventually probably buy-back DVC tokens.

You might notice that HZ is not listed in the "Latest Rates" file. That is because HZ is not on any "exchanges" yet nor has it been set up with a "treasury" yet from which to compute a value for it.

Lately it has been being used in the buying and selling of assets on the HORIZON platform as if it were worth one cent Canadian but realistically it probably needs to be worth a lot more than that OR all the assets need to be worth a whole lot less than they are being computed to be worth if there are realistically to be enough HZ to buy any large fraction of all the assets.

It looks like the "Slush Fund" needs to cancel some of its sell offers though, I see it is currently offering to sell DeVCorp shares at well below the computed value.

(Presumably when the offers were posted though they would have been above the value computed back then.)

-MarkM-
9  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated on: June 03, 2020, 04:12:22 PM

First of all to make things clear, Mark you have your DVC tokens that represent something in your game and your own assets like GFC, etc. But sometimes in your language you seem to say that all Devcoin holders are playing in your game or even that the Devcoin Foundation has some debt to pay to you or your game, so you come time after time stating that there is a zillionary debt. Who are the debtors? You alone, the players? everybody holding Devcoin coins? Can you clarify that for everybody in this thread?


The game is all-encompassing, Earth is just a mythical planet that has usually been thought to even be impossible and definitely improbable, because tales about the planet known as Earth often seem to say or imply that there are more different civilisations on that one planet than any actual known planet has ever been known to have.

FreeCiv only supports a maximum number of civilisations in play at once, and until quite-recent versions the limit was much lower than the present number of 127 or so; thus for most of FreeCiv's history it has not been possible to represent in FreeCiv the actual state of affairs on Earth. Since the peoples of the FreeCiv-based planets have only ever actually encountered planets with far far less civilisations than that on them, the whole idea of an "origin of humanity" planet that has had many many different civilisations all living on it at once without even yet supposedly having been taken over by one of them seems rather unlikely, thus probably apocryphal, mythical, fictional.

Nonetheless some ideas that some have associated with that mythical planet are widespread through the galaxy or galaxies as it is an enduring and large body of mythology; there are even entire ouvres of literature attributed to authors who purportedly were or are Earthlings.

One thing you might have noticed in stories about money as it is used on Earth is that it is heavily debt-based. In fact it is often described as basically coming into existence in the form of debt in the first place. Banks loan out funds they do not necessarily even have, and thus new money comes into existence.

Debt also is an economic driver, in that it creates demand for the currency.

Then too, most free open source multiplayer online games basically give stuff out for nothing to starting players, so that it is possible to flood the game with free stuff out of no-where just by creating new player-accounts so as to get all the stuff each new player gets given at their start of play, which can be a nasty hole in the entire economy, especially if what players start with is something that ought to be quite expensive such as an entire colony ship just arriving at a planet for it to colonise.

Thus it is necessary when adding a game into the larger multiverse to somehow account for where the starting gear for the new game came from in terms of the already running games.

In the case of the intergalactic colony ships creating mining colonies in galaxies far far away the question naturally arises who built them, who paid for them, how did they even get to those far away galaxies, who authorised the new player to take control of the new colony and why and how and where did they come up with whatever resources were involved in getting to that point?

So, each new player-account in the Galaxies Online game came with a back-story that it had borrowed from General Mining Corp (GMC) and General Retirement Funds (GRF) Corps in order to finance the sending of the colony ship that was just now as they started play landing on a planet in a far-away galaxy to start building a mining-colony.

This also gave them a built-in market for the DEUterium they came there to mine, since both GMC and GRF were building depot colonies out there to which the DEUterium could be delivered in return for currency.

Thus it should have all been really rather simple; people would start play, build colonies, mine DEUterium, ship it to depots and thereby pay off those debts.

Where it got more complicated was when it emerged that most players simply registered, got given a colony, and never came back.

That led eventually to some very large debts, so the ability to register as a new player was closed and "repossession Corps" were set up to "repossess" the abandoned colonies since the entire project of setting up these colonies is considered essential to the security of the civilised galaxies, that is, to the civilisations based on FreeCiv.

So now there are about forty-something intergalactic mining Corps still but most of them are "repo Corps", Corps that took over colonies that had been abandoned for more than an entire planet-Earth year, which should be about twelve game-years if FreeCiv one-year game-turns are given a whole month each to play out.

Of those only a few are "free and clear" having long ago paid off their startup loans; most of them still owe huge amounts, some so much that it might make more sense to think of them as owned by the Corps they owe their debts to.

If you follow up the entire many-years-now back-story of the whole thing you will see that there was a period around the whole repossession period in which various governments decided that they were not all that eager to let GMC and GRF be the only lenders raking in the nice amounts of interest the mining Corps were paying on their loans. Thus a bunch of alternative financing schemes were created and for a while their representatives on the Galactic Diplomacy Planet were running around actively competing with one-another to re-finance the miners with loans denominated in their own currencies.

If you search bitcointalk you should still be able to find threads where you can see General Financial Corp being created as a Corp with one million shares, various entities giving it startup funds, the calculation of its initial value per share fo9und by dividing the total initial funds by the one million shares to find it started at 20 DVC per share.

Only a few months later you can see its shares had gone up massively thanks to their officers' cleverness in arranging to borrow MBC from the Martians at a lower interest rate than other governments were asking, so low that GFC was able to offer the miners interest rates competetive with what the various governments were asking.

Thus GFC ended up with probably more of the miners on its books than any of the other lenders ended up with.

Way back then miners liked their debts to be denominated in DVC rather than GMC, GRF, MBC, UKB, CAD or UNS because those other currencies were trending up in value so fast their was a real worry that debts denominated in those currencies might end up being impossible to ever pay. DVC was not climbing anywhere near as fast, which made it an attractive option at the time.

Later there came a period, while we were still calculating the value of DeVCoin by looking at the prices prevailing on the usual web-based "exchanges" folk here on bitcointalk are used to, when DeVCoin's value plummeted so low that a few Corps who noticed in time managed to completely pay off their DeVCoin-denominated loans and some others at least managed to make a big dent in their debt.

Already at that time though there were so few DeVCoins on the platform that it was not practical to expect them to actually get hold of DeVCoins with which to pay; they would have paid using other currencies, using the "Latest Rates include-file" conversion-rates. Because even that many years ago the DeVCoin project was not allocating many if any DeVCoins toward any projects that formed any part of this whole huge multiverse of intertwinded economies created for the purpose of both providing value to the coins and making use of free open source software that presumably was most of the whole point of DeVCoin's mandate.

For whatever reason none of the coins, even those merged-mined right alongside DeVCoin, were not getting any DVC shares for running their nodes, nor bounties to upgrade their software to keep it current; none of the FreeCiv nations were getting any shares for forming entire civilisations of backdrop for DeVCoins to operate in, nothing. Basically pretty much the only DeVCoins going onto the platform were the half of my own coins that I was free to tokenise given I only tokenise half of what I have of a coin in order that I still have the other half to redeem the tokens with without having to go dig up the coins I actually tokenised.

Plus of course I have lost well over a billion DVC on those "normal web-based exchanges" over the years as they flow-by-night. Again with no shares for running those market-making operations over those years.

All of this should have been learned by hanging out on the Galactic Diplomacy Planet all these years, or by Devtome-wiki posts about it all by players who did thusly hang out with the other diplomats and reps and such keeping track of it all and probably also becoming influential political figures helping to steer the whole thing; instead people were being paid for Devtome postings that did not seem to relate whatsoever to any part of any project that was actually working on building up entire universe of backdrop and economy behind DeVCoins and its sibling coins that are mined right alongside it using merged mining.

Right now coins like GRouPcoin, CoiLedCoin and GeistGeld, three of the merged-mined coins, hardly even have any nodes left online, and other coins that are not merged-mined, such as the two original scrypt-based coins that pre-dated litecoin (Tenebrix and Fairbrix) are in similar straits. Some coins are so low in difficulty by now that you can mine them with just one CPU core. That is the time to be mining them, to build up a bit of a stash before someone with a GPU or some ASICs comes along and drives their difficulty back up. Thanks to my policy of not minting-and-destroying tokens on-demand, a low difficulty on-chain does not really affect the security of coins traded on the platforms because the actual on-blockchain coins backing the tokens do not keep changing as people cash in and out; once a coin has been tokenised, mostly years ago, I use the other half of my coins to cash out to the blockchain anyone who wants to thusly cash out, so the coins actually backing the tokens stay year after year unmoving on the blockchain racking up year after year of confirmations.

-MarkM-
10  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated on: June 02, 2020, 10:01:52 PM
The idea of burning coins to back a token based on them seems a bit weird compared to actually having the coins on hand to redeem the tokens for real coins.

Kind of hard to figure how the token is supposed to be worth anything when the coins it supposedly represents have been burned.

At least with the existing tokens I can redeem them for actual on the blockchain coins.

Also, we definitely DO need more DeVCoin tokens, as I have written before.

There simply are not enough of them on the platform(s) to make it reasonable to require people paying DeVCoin-denominated debts to pay them IN DEVCOIN.

Just looking at the last two payments made to GFC against loans I see 123+ million and 138+ million devcoins of debt paid respectively, but no way was there that many actual DeVCoins available for the debtor to have been able to buy actual DeVCoins to make those payments with; they were made with General Retirement Funds (GRF) scrip if I recall correctly. Ideally the debtor should have been able to buy that many DeVCoins using the GRF scrip or whatever other currencies they have been using then pay actual DVC to GFC. Those two payments were not even unusually large.

If it were practical for GFC to insist on being paid IN DEVCOINS, it would soak up huge numbers of DeVCoins quite rapidly I expect, to the point where it would maybe have to become the primary seller of them just to enable the debtors to be able to obtain enough of them to make their payments with. So possibly just GFC alone could solve the whole "DVC has no value" conundrum provided there were in fact plenty of DeVCoins in play. Basically DeVCoin has pretty much killed all its own value by throwing all its coins to pretty much any useless thing other than the game which was created and developed over all these years specifically for the purpose of giving DeVCoins value.

-MarkM-
11  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated on: June 02, 2020, 07:00:02 AM
The problem is what are the actual dollars you are going to use to buy back the devdollars?

I have seen a number of schemes whereby they attempt to use their coin as collateral to somehow create supposed stablecoins, but they are not really anywhere near as stable as their whitepapers make them sound.

I still think what we need to do is keep building the buy sides as strong as possible, the approach I have described before has worked over and over and over again not only tending the value up and up and up but also yielding more and more of the coin back again to bury in the backyard or wherever; that is, it takes more and more of the coin out of circulation while growing the value per coin of those still piled up on the exchanges as huge buy side and sell side columns of offers.

Unless you are going to have an actual "treasury" of dollars with which to "back" coins as dollar-tokens it is hard to really assert your coin is fixed at a dollar, but you can always keep building the buy-side stronger (denser) than the sell-side and strive toward eventually having a buy-side large enough and deep enough that all the outstanding coins (those not yet buried in the back yard as it were) can eventually be sold to it.

Also your idea seems to isolate DeVCoin, trying to have it stand alone instead of being a part of a rich tapestry of inter-related assets that all support one another and provide a hopefully ever-growing number of routes out to fiat or other various economies (though mostly fiat, realistically, since most users do tend to be from "the planet known as Earth" so have that bias of in the long run tending to want to ship their gains back to Earth).

If you want to have dollars why not simply use one of the actually-backed-by-real-dollars stablecoins as the dollar side and build up your buy-side of those stronger and stronger until you can buy back all outstanding DeVCoins with those at whatever dollar value per DeVCoin you are targetting or are able to actually achieve given the size of your dollars buy-side column of offers?

Right now we are having a snag in building up our buy-side due to DVC being paired against bitcoin; however we have several other coins, and not only ones that are mined right alongside DeVCoins, in which it is still reasonable and feasible to build up their buy-sides, which to my mind shows one of the strengths of using many coins. When one or more of them, in this case DeVCoin, hits a snag due to the vagaries of "exchanges", no problem we can simply continue along by using any or all of our other coins that are also on exchanges.

That is also why I have all along suggested that the other coins should be among the free open source projects that we support. We should be trying to keep them all up to date and keep them all having enough nodes to function and so on. We should not be competing against our other coins but, rather, co-operating with them.

We can build up buy-sides of everything in Lumens, sure, I in fact already started doing that some time ago, although now that Lumens have gone up in value I am looking at having to get back in there and check all my offers since it is possible Lumens might be going up in value faster than the other side of the pairs so my offers might suddenly be looking more generous than I can afford if I do not keep an eye on them.

You can already right now start helping build the XLM buy-side against DeVCoin and a bunch of our other assets on the STELLAR platform, see http://makemoney.knotwork.com/stellar/

A big advantage of the STELLAR platform is we can also build all the pairs, everything against everything, if we choose, as Lumens do not insinuate themselves into every trade like HZs do on the HORIZON platform.

-MarkM-
12  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated on: June 02, 2020, 12:49:04 AM
GFC can act as a way of "earning" DVC because of the fact that its value is mostly based upon its portfolio of DVC-based debts that are owed to it.

These debts are "secured" by the various FreeCiv-based nations that are actively working toward building defensive shells around the galaxy or galaxies in which the FreeCiv-based planets are located.

This effort is spearheaded by the (galactic) United Nations, whose most powerful constituents so far are the Brits, the Canucks and the Martians.

Thus right there you see there are at least four of the most significant galactic currencies basically aligned behind it all: United Nations Script (UNS), United Kingdom Britcoin (UKB), Canadian Digital Notes (CDN) and Martian BotCoin (MBC), in addition to DeVCoins themselves (which, by the way, have all along been considered one of the "big seven" Galactic currencies).

Admittedly the loans got off to a rocky start by being given out to random internet passers-by who chose to participate in mining galaxies far far away, with most of those passers-by vanishing after doing mostly nothing whatsoever with their newly created mining colonies.

However after about a "Planet Known as Earth" year (corresponding to about twelve game-years presumably) the powers that be (aka the United Nations and its main constituents) decided it was time to "repo" all the colony Corps that had not been logged into for at least a year, and they proceeded to recruit "Galactic Repo Corps" to take on those debts and run those colonies and continue to make payment on those loans.

So although a lot of those loans grew huge during that initial year, they have all been back to receiving payments for Earth-years (not game years) now.

The governments of the civilised planets are committed to this massive defense project because the existence of O-game and so called O-game clones shows us that the multiverse is indeed full of extremely hostile things out there somewhere, so rings of O-game clone implemented galaxies are being fortified around the "home galaxy" or "home galaxies" to defend against any eventual incursions from O-games far far away.

Because there are typically about twelve game-years to a "real" (non-game) year, the interest rates might seem a little high to Earthlings (players), but in game time terms they are of course twelve times less so maybe not really "unreasonably high" in their actual (which is to say, in-game) context.

I believe they are basically about a quarter of a percent per actual non-game calendar day, calculated as hourly compounding with any fraction of an hour accounted as a full hour.

Hourly was chosen in case the same processes end up being used to deal with leverage style loans / moneymarket-accounts types of thing where someone might for example want to borrow something for a few hours to short it or something like that.

Obviously of course this is all within a game, the Galactic Milieu; if it all turns out to work well gosh knows what paperwork would be needed to proceed from this in-game prototyping to some kind of real-world similar set of constructs.

So the upshot of all this is that you can buy GFC shares and list them for sale at a higher price, and wait for someone to come along and buy them at that higher price, fully expecting that at least in DeVCoins the value will indeed be higher since the debts it is collecting on are denominated in DeVCoins.

It is partly to facilitate the continued and hopefully regular presence of buyers that I have suggested the "DVC Foundation" proposed as recipient of the lion's share of minted DeVCoins take up regular buying of GFC shares. However even if that ends up not happening presumably there should always be bargain-hunters "out there" willing to snap up the shares as and when the sell offer prices get caught up to and exceeded by the value of the shares.

I regret in fact that I have so little time myself to keep scouring the markets looking for bargains after each new "Latest Rates" include-file is published. I have noticed in passing some pretty extreme bargains building up through the last few generations of the "Latest Rates".


-MarkM-
13  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated on: June 01, 2020, 02:51:03 PM
We already have dDVC (digi-DeVCoin) "tokens" on HORIZON and STELLAR networks, based originally on the dDVC on the Digitalis Open Transactions server.

Furthermore a "DVC Holdings" aka "DVC Treasury" account already exists on HORIZON holding assets whose total supposed value can be added up and that total divided by the number of DeVCoins minted to arrive at a supposed value per DeVCoin.

A problem generically across all of the various assets used in such "treasuries" and more assets whose value is computed from them but tht are not themselves used in such "treasuries" is that very few of the assets have lately been listed on any of the usual public website-based "exchanges" the crypto community is used to.

This has resulted in skewing of prices, and thus arbitrage oppotunities, caused by the players who want to "cash out" to "Planet Known As Earth" fiat currencies having very few routes toward such "cashing-out" and thus driving up the actual "spot prices" on these platforms of the assets that are listed on the familiar type of "exchanges" and, on those exchanges, a driving down of the actual "spot prices" of those actual coins on those familiar exchanges.

This is a large part of why it is good to have more of our coins listed on such exchanges.

The more coins any "cashing out" activity can be spread amongst, the lower the impact "cashing out" ought to be able to have on any one such coin.

Right now for example I know off-hand that DVC, IXC, I0C, USF (aka SCIFI), KED, GPL2, AXIOM and QBT are all listed on one or more of the usual familiar website-type public "exchanges", thus all of them are possible routes toward "cashing out", so I would expect their "spot prices" on HORIZON and STELLAR platforms to be inflated as players compete to be first/cheapest to "cash out", and their "spot prices" on the "exchanges" to be somewhat suppressed by that same "cashing out" activity.

This in turn means that folks who are aiming at "cashing out" into "Planet Known As Earth" funds tend to be seeing actual cashed-out values of all these assets end up at End Of Day to be substantially lower than the computed relative-values calculated for these assets based on the "treasuries" system.

For example, the computed supposed value of IXC based on its "treasury" is about 21.5 cents Canadian or so, but on FreiExchange its highest recent value was someone buying it up to 650 satoshis, and subsequent filling back up of buy and sell sides has its lowest sell price current at 570 satoshis and highest buy offer at 520 satoshis, which is bitcoin was worth 10,000 dollars each would come to 5.7 cents (of whichever kind of dollars bitcoin was worth 10,000 of) and 5.2 cents repsectively.

So we can see that for someone thinking of "cashing out" by way of IXC, they would see all the computed relative values (e.g. the "Latest Rates" file and all the tables and plots based on it) as being too high by a factor of four or five or six or so, that is, that if they tried to actually cash out, by way of IXC, they could only expect to yield a quarter to a sixth or so of the value indicated in those files and tables and plots and such.

The more we strengthen the buy-sides on those usual website-type public "exchanges", and the more of our coins we do so for, the better the cashing-out picture should eventually look. I have gotten IoC and IXC up to a dollar a coin at least twice maybe more times, it is just a matter of time but then typically a hack or a fly-by-night exchange blows it and I have to start from scratch all over again.

With IXC and I0C I am helped by the fact that they do not mint a lot of new coins constantly.

With DVC the sheer number of new DVC being minted constantly undermines the prices seen on exchanges.

The Corp whose mandate is specifically to support and strengthen the value of DVC is "DeVCorp".

The Corp, created by DeVCorp, that seems to be actually accomplishing the most is General Financial Corp, GFC; it holds a huge amount of DVC-denominated debt.

It seems to me that shares of those two Corps could make a lot of sense as something the "DVC Foundation" could buy to "lock up" DeVCoins.

If almost all shares of DVC minted went to buying such shares, that would keep DVC off the market while still rewarding supporters of the coin. You can see historical calculated-values of both shares of DeVCorp (sDVC) and shares of General Financial Corp (sGFC) at http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/sharesindvc.html

The Foundation could also list the shares back on the sell side as it acquires them, building stacks of sell offers higher and higher ready to get bought when (or if) the prices climb.

So in short, we already have tokens and we already have stuff set up for binding coins into Corps to keep them off the market, you-lot just haven't been fully utilising them.

-MarkM-
14  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [DEAD] Coiledcoin - yet another cryptocurrency, but with OP_EVAL! on: May 27, 2020, 07:01:47 PM

LFM.knotwork.com aka DVCstable01.dvcnode.org

It will know of others presumably.

It runs all my coins so should have the other related coins too.

-MarkM-
15  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated on: May 25, 2020, 07:43:08 PM

It seems the dvdnode.org domain somehow got renewed for anoher year, I think maybe I was automatically billed for it or something and my bank account happened to actually have money in it at that moment.

Or maybe some third party anonymously paid the renewal fee, I don't know what exactly happened but WHOIS evidently shows I have it for another year.

So presumably the hostnames at dvcnode.org should keep working for another year yet.

-MarkM-
16  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated on: May 20, 2020, 02:33:42 PM

My server that was known as dvcstable01.dvcnode.org is still running and is also known as LFM.knotwork.com, and still runs all the many and various coins it has been running all along.

Existing nodes should work as they will have it in their peers lists, some coins let you add peers while they are running others need them on the command-line when you start them or in their config file if you use the config files.

-MarkM-

17  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] IXCoin [IXC] The Original Bitcoin Sidechain on: May 10, 2020, 11:17:03 PM
Bitcoin stil doesn't have smart contracts I think, and it certainly didn't back when IXCoin was created from it.

However, if counterparty or suchlike still works, and doesn't now require some fix that bitcoin has and IXCoin doesn't yet have, maybe a version of Counterparty or the like can work on IXCoin?

-MarkM-

18  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] IXCoin [IXC] The Original Bitcoin Sidechain on: April 07, 2020, 02:59:54 AM

I am pretty sure I have successfully brought coins home from Yobit before.

I sent some successfully to Freiexchange too but haven't tried bringing any back from there.

-MarkM-
19  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated on: April 06, 2020, 03:11:58 PM
The answer to the question about the consequences of not paying the in-game loans is similar to any "secured" loan: the borrower had collateral, and loses that collateral if they fail to pay the loan.

That is in fact what already happened in by far the majority of cases: the original borrowers tended to be random passers-by on the internet who created an account in an intergalactic-mining game, a so-called "O-game clone", and basically never came back. A lot of them did not even bother starting their newly-automatically-created mining colony building anything.

This is also why there are not a lot of "free as in beer" methods of starting into the games: we learned from experience that if players are not putting up any collateral in entering the game, the folks already in the game end up having to do all the work of "playing" the new roles that were being brought into play for the supposed new players.

Evidently it really helps to have the players have "skin in the game" as some call it, that is, to have collateral, to have something against which they can borrow.

A planet-known-as-Earth year or more down the line, we had to start forming "Galactic Reposession Corps" to "repossess" intergalactic mining operations that had not been logged-into for a whole year or more.

"Reposessing" them rather than, for instance, "writing them off" as "bankrupt" was necessary because of the whole intergalactic politics behind it all, the fact that all the civilised worlds needed these mining operations to be "out there" as a first step toward creating a defensive shell around the civilised galaxies against the reasonably-to-be-anticipated eventual advent of nasty fleets of aggressors from other "O-game clones" far far way.

That is, we know from observing O-game clones all over the net the kind of behavior to be expected from denizens of distant galaxies, so we need to prepare our civilised galaxies against such potential opponents.

So rather than "write off" the colonies, the intergalactic United Nations created Galactic Repo Corps, one per abandoned mining operation, to assume the operation's debt and put the mines to work.

The collateral was the colonies each operation controlled.

Having seen that random passers-by who got to join the game for free almost all never actually built up or managed the mining operation they had signed up to manage, we no longer bother letting people start play that way. Nowadays if they wanted some kind of loans they would have to find them privately from some other players or something; or start in the one remaining free rabbit-hole where they get to start one individual person on an individual-character scale of play such as on the galactic diplomacy planet via the "CrossCiv" server.


As to the "bridge", I think in a lot of people's minds cryptocoins, and maybe even the whole concept of money itself, keeps being thought of as some kind of commodity; which to a small extend maybe cryptocoins are or can be but that aspect of them is more like the actual value of the metal a penny or nickel or dome or quarter or loonie is made of than like the face value such as being worth a cent or being worth five cents or being worth twenty-five cents or being worth on dollar.

Yes if you want a token people can conveniently and durably pass around from person to person and which you want to use as a token representing value such as "this token can buy flour salt and yeast and bread at my bakery business" or whatever, the tokens can have some small value to you because of their usefulness to you as something to use to represent the buying-power you want to issue to your suppliers and customers, so that when a farmer drops off sacks of flour to your warehouse you have something durable to issue him or her so they can later come back and use those tokens to buy back some of the flour they in effect stored in your warehouse, or buy some bread you baked from it or whatever.

But the point is that money is really basically a kind of I.O.U, to its issuer, or at any rate it SHOULD be.

Yes you might like to buy up every last one of some cheap cryptocoin or other so that when you issue them back out to folks you know how many are out there thus how much of the flour, yeast, salt and bread in your shop is "accounted for" by the coins that are in other people's hands, but, their value as counters you bought to put to some such use is probably trivial compared to their value IN USE AS YOUR I.O.U.s.

We have a few times now had the value of an IXC coin and the value of an I0C coin up to a dollar or so and that was not because that is how much they are "intrinsically" worth it is because we had managed to hoard or destroy enough of them that we could afford to use them as "dollar tokens" because seemingly at the time there were not enough out in the wild that folks were dumping too many of them to our "I will buy 100 of them at a dollar each, another 100 at 99 cents each, another 100 at 98 cents each, another 100 at 97 cents each" and so on offers.

Ideally we would have first bought or minted every last one of them, so that the only way anyone else had any was because we had given them some in token that we owed them something, even if that something was just "99% of what you gave me for them" or "90% of what you gave me for them" or suchlike. Then we would have been more secure against suddely finding someone out there had a million of them that we had not stockpiled enough gooods or services or dollars or whatever to be able to "redeem" at what we had been seeing as the current value each one was managing to represent.

You might notice if you look at the historical tables of values that the coins that minted 21 million, or in the case of bitNicKeLs 420 million, coins up front and did noy have random third parties minting more of them that those coins did very well compared to BiTCoin the first few years BECAUSE all kinds of folks all over the world, a lot of whom had no intention of buying back from customers the bitcoins they sold them, were minting bitcoins. Basically bitcoins were being minted by min ters who were not really putting their full faith and credit behind them, they were selling them off as if they were simple blank rounds of metal other people might choose to use as coinage rather than issuing them as their own coinage they stood ready to buy back for some substantial fraction of what they sold them for.

So you really have to keep in mind that money is I.O.U.s.

Robert A. Heinlein illustrated this in at least one of his "Lazarus Long" stories, Lazarus sets up a general store on a colony planet, issues "money" to his suppliers in return for the inventory he stocks the store with, and the colonists can then use that "money" to buy stuff in his store. Some colonist child or something sees him burning that money when it came back into his possession and thinks it weird that he is burning "money", but as he points out, those are his I.O.U.s and once he has redeemed them they are worthless to him except maybe, if they were durable and still in good shape, maybe as tokens he could re-use for the same purpose of representing him owing something to the bearer.

So as issuers of DeVCoins we need to bear in mind that we have chosen a relatively cheap, as these things currently go, token to use to represent our I.O.U.s but that they are our I.O.U.s and ultimately their value lies in the fact that we stand ready to "back" the, aka to "redeem" them, hopefully with "the full faith and credit of the DeV nation" or somesuch thing.

We need to have a whole bunch of OTHER coins, assets, currencies and so on partly because we need something to back our coins WITH, something people can redeem them FOR, and partly because even if we are very careful who we give out 9/10ths of the coins to we still are faced with the fact that random "miners" all over the world are able to "mint" OUR coin, and a lot of them do NOT think of them as their own I.O.U.s they are issuing and that they are expected to redeem; to the contrary, to many of them every block's 5000 coins that they get it 5000 more of OUR I.O.U.'s that we are giving them for their service of securing our blockchain or at least of keeping the blocks moving, and ultimately we have to "back" aka "redeem" those coins too.

Coins like IXCoin and I0Coin are "minting" far far fewer new coins, so they can be in some ways more useful than DeVCoins for use as yet more I.O.U.s we can "back" and "honour" because in using them we are not looking at a huge minting of more of them every day so they are potentially easier for us to keep on backing and ultimately hope to have almost all of them buried someplace to that those still out there waiting for us to redeem them become less and less in number and thus are practical maybe to use as I.O.U.s representing more and more value per coin of them.

-MarkM-

20  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated on: April 03, 2020, 04:31:06 PM
I think the relative values of all the treasuries-based coins and assets do make sense, the problems arise in trying to integrate with the values of things that use just the next price or the last price that someone is about to get (top of buy side offers) or did just get (last actual trade) on some exchange or other as their supposed value.

So for example maybe for anything on the Latest Rates table that does have a pair on an exchange somewhere, compare how much it is/was on exchanges to what it is/was according to the Latest Rates list to figure out about how far out the exchanges are from the computed values on the rates table.

Maybe hopefully doing that for a number of things we'll find some consistency that they are all about half the price on exchanges than we computed, or one fifth, or whatever.

If the ratios are wildly inconsistent though I dunno, maybe try to average them?

Things that changed a lot on exchanges since last time Latest Rates was computed will tend to cause that I guess if the others do not also change right along with them. Like if Bitcoin doubles but litecoin goes down, XRP doesn't move much and Stellar moves a little more.

So maybe try using things that are not very volatile on exchanges. I0C and IXC havent moved much for a while on exchanges, so maybe look how much exchanges claim they are worth and ratio that to what the Rates table says they are worth to come up hopefully with a ratio you can blanket apply across all the Rates, like "recent Latest Rates seem to value everything at X times what exchanges have been saying" or something like that?

A goal then would be to work on building the I0C and IXC buy-sides on the exchanges to bring them up to the levels the Latest Rates file says they ought to be. It maybe ought to be a matter of "apparently arbitragers are not efficiently carrying the values across from platform to platform" or something like that?

-MarkM-
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