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1  Economy / Services / Re: ranochigo's 100% Free Escrow | Signature Campaign Manager | Legendary Member on: December 20, 2016, 12:52:59 PM
Or you are both the seller and the escrow.

Even if you are both the seller/buyer and the escrow - nothing you can do in case of 3-of-3 MultiSig escrow.
2  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Bitcointalk Escrows - Trade Safely! on: December 18, 2016, 12:34:40 PM
Which member offer best escrow service, here on this forum?

If you want a thing well done, do it yourself.

The truth is that the best escrow agent - is when there is no agent, and a user can use MultiSig.  Roll Eyes
3  Local / Обменники / Re: Список мошенников on: September 04, 2016, 03:21:12 PM
Видать всему виной религия, которая не позволяет использовать эскроу, или любимая поговорка: "Скупой платит дважды"...
4  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: [coinb.in] Open Source, Multi Signature, HD Wallet and more! on: May 22, 2016, 08:16:44 AM
Can I add a multisignature address to bitcoin core? Can I then add the private keys (assuming I have them of course) and do a spend using that wallet?

To add a 2-of-3 MustiSig address to bitcoin core you will need to execute in client console the following command (in your example):

Code:
addmultisigaddress 2 '["03d6a0edc630c29f649500d592091039d7f3c942ec07bb7ebdabfe5727c58964fd","0305143caa81bc0fec9237f594939d0ceb667cb78e451264e8d2a677648a871aeb","0306c73d2aea0a492e268dd1b3ed1ba1bbdc54c1d4a3a46d9d74fe81f3e6a301af"]'

Result:

Code:
3NUEUQspbf9LK3mRN13pLNyzeEK4Ep1HRC

In order to spend the funds from the MultiSig address you will need to import 2 of 3 private keys that correspond to these public keys:

Code:
importprivkey KwyKy7C7f8pHw1GizvWhLpE6GB13ZcfNJoX98MHiwwz1x77MksQq

Code:
importprivkey Kyw4KDi8Lre2WhpTJt8p8gfTEkpSfqVv8dv3bJ75cmuyvFHQ7HBy
5  Local / Бизнес / Veritas Escrow / гарант сервис с надежной MultiSig схемой on: April 12, 2016, 06:19:21 PM
     Как проверить финальную транзакцию перед ее подписанием?

Чтобы проверить финальную транзакцию, в строке меню вашего кошелька выберите: Помощь -> Окно отладки -> Консоль -> введите "decoderawtransaction 01xxxНеподписаннаяТранзакция" -> нажмите "Enter".

Пример:

а) команда для подписания транзакции (без подписи):

Code:
signrawtransaction '0100000001be57043303a208e728fba88a069e40a049e3ab3bf9234258676cde0f130a566b0000000000ffffffff0100881300000000001976a914ab78c258721b4bb50e6e40d89f21270047239ea888ac00000000' '[{"txid" : "6b560a130fde6c67584223f93babe349a0409e068aa8fb28e708a203330457be","vout":0,"scriptPubKey":"a9144a9fe5f9c713337467faf7c2882f110b970bea6187","redeemScript":"5441048a0f65d63c159b5c003dd33c91e78d0b592ef98d2eb7adb25d51c69f95c9b129de0e844cd92d4140b08511c7889f617140818df73477119b68e19fcf22ad18f041047004d94c8b17cbf802c858f3473071c9b6da969dd8e7416665823681dba9ee871b3b46c2664d97a01b54da04929802ece62cf78478e5fb235d6351a77a8bd7872102853707a7647c838ab29266ac3e72217754ccf38e38d9bff0f2fed3fb34adac572103db795d90000ac169baaa2d8f0b488eb71568d7ad84a74c40aa031a504170b6af2103b73e78e3d2b2f69c8e6d187943d176d1ee29c499ca5dd680e7064b536150ae4655ae"}]'
Первая часть команды содержит неподписанную (или частично подписанную) транзакцию в бинарном формате.

б) decoderawtransaction 0100000001be57043303a208e728fba88a069e40a049e3ab3bf9234258676cde0f130a566b00000 00000ffffffff0100881300000000001976a914ab78c258721b4bb50e6e40d89f21270047239ea8 88ac00000000

результат:
{
"txid" : "2113941ac0b12e4017c916a70b5c7dd9178a3a0abbc5928ccf1c94ff9d9af33e",
"version" : 1,
"locktime" : 0,
"vin" : [
{
"txid" : "6b560a130fde6c67584223f93babe349a0409e068aa8fb28e708a203330457be",
"vout" : 0,
"scriptSig" : {
"asm" : "",
"hex" : ""
},
"sequence" : 4294967295
}
],
"vout" : [
{
"value" : 0.01280000,
"n" : 0,
"scriptPubKey" : {
"asm" : "OP_DUP OP_HASH160 ab78c258721b4bb50e6e40d89f21270047239ea8 OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG",
"hex" : "76a914ab78c258721b4bb50e6e40d89f21270047239ea888ac",
"reqSigs" : 1,
"type" : "pubkeyhash",
"addresses" : [
"1GdfDJD2Rmo6PZAkWPWP99nLe6kv7vxD9s"
]
}
}
]
}

Согласно транзакции 0.01280000 BTC будут переведены на адрес 1GdfDJD2Rmo6PZAkWPWP99nLe6kv7vxD9s.
6  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Bitcointalk Escrows - Trade Safely! on: March 11, 2016, 05:54:45 PM
Hm. So the seller risk 1x and buyer 2x while the seller has the goods. Though the seller only sends the goods after the escrow address was funded. Additionally, who has to send first to the escrow address?

When the buyer has to send first 2x then the seller is in favor risking nothing. If the seller sends 1x first then he would be in risk of losing 1x. So a scam can happen by both sides. And using a new account will ensure that a scam accusation thread is useless.

Even when both sent. Then the seller risked only 1x and the buyer 2x. At this point the buyer is more at risk. The seller can extort for more than his 1x.

The buyer and the seller send funds to the MultiSig address at the same time and in the same transaction.
In most cases the seller is more reputable than the buyer and his reputation worth more than a single purchase... but it is doesn't matter, because the scheme is assumes that you will never put a desert eagle near your balls and will never shoot yourself in the foot.

Well, when I feel into the situation then this surely is nothing you can use for every trade...

There is nothing complicated for you as the MultiSig escrow agent, just to prepare the transaction, help verify and sign it, broadcast it to the network. All responsibility for any decisions lies on the buyer and the seller.
7  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Bitcointalk Escrows - Trade Safely! on: March 11, 2016, 03:38:46 PM
Ok, but why should the buyer take the risk to lose twice the amount of coins, not receiving goods AND being extorted by the seller afterwards? As buyer I would not take that risk since we would not at the same risk levels then.

...the problem is that the collateral might be enough motivation for the scammer to force the victim to concede.

It is like in trading of cryptos, you will never lose until you sell cheaper than bought, even if the current asset price is lower than when you bought it.

The beauty of this scheme is that without your wish nobody can scam you, but the scammer will lose his own money. And only you, by your own hands, can return to the scammer his money plus give him your own. If you are considering such a possibility, just do it before the deal, you will win a lot оf free time.

Which I think is the general problem with your plan. It's risky for both sides.

Exactly! But it is not a problem, it is the foundation of the scheme, a good motivator for the both parties to be honest each with other.
8  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Bitcointalk Escrows - Trade Safely! on: March 11, 2016, 09:18:28 AM
In a normal escrow scenario the escrow agent can: 1) make a mistake (a human factor), 2) be hacked, 3) be physically compromised, 4) scam the buyer and the seller (as it usually happens here) or 5) just simply disappear (for any reason)... So, what will you choose?

Just my comments:
1. Unlikely to happen. Yes, possible, but unlikely, at least for the more reputable escrows here.
2. Unlikely to happen. Most decent escrows, while not immune to being hacked, have taken precautions to prevent being hacked.
3. Same as 2.
4. I've only known of a small handful, but they were not trusted to begin with, so I don't know why other people went with them.
5. One very reputable escrow did disappear, but he did come back and fix things. Some of us have lives outside this forum.


All the other topics I've read so far up to this point, in this thread, have been interesting reading. Go on, continue your discussions.

All escrow agents were from this list and they were more reputable (according to the trust rating) than You:

  1. redsn0w https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=768454.msg10010518#msg10010518.
  2. (or 4, and finally 5) master-P https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1306301.0.
~3. escrow.ms, possible as a consequence https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1359877.0.
  4. Maidak https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1077982.0.
  5. Same as 2.

P.S. Maybe I forgot somebody.
P.P.S. So, this "escrows list" is a bullshit, like as the forum "trust rating system".
9  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Bitcointalk Escrows - Trade Safely! on: March 10, 2016, 11:55:33 PM
In this case your punishment is twice as bad as the scammers.  If you want to reduce the punishment that you feel, you can only do it by giving in to the scammer and allowing him to win.

Not necessary. All you need is just to proclaim in advance, that you will always punish the scammer, and be tough. I do not think that after that, you will find someone who will check you out... The scammers will always try to find a less risky options.

This is how psychology works.
10  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Bitcointalk Escrows - Trade Safely! on: March 10, 2016, 10:58:49 PM
DannyHamilton

Thank you for your post, it actually shows how much freedom gives this scheme to the escrow parties.

Lets imagine a scenario here...
I:
When the product arrives, I claim that...
Before to claim something we need to have irrefutable proof or to have a good reputation, otherwise our words will be empty.

No matter which you choose, I get to keep the product and you lose both your product and your money.
You get to keep the product but lose twice as much as it costs.

II:
No matter which you choose, you lose some of your money.  I *might* lose 1 BTC...
You will lose not only 1 BTC, but also your reputation (that was claimed above) which is usually worth more than a single purchase.


What is important:

1) no matter what I choose, it will be my decision (based on the truth), and only I will responsible for it;
2) in any possible scenario I will have a chance to punish the scammer.
11  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Bitcointalk Escrows - Trade Safely! on: March 10, 2016, 08:54:12 PM
So if the buyer refuses to release the funds, then will the funds be stuck for ever?

In a normal escrow scenario then will the escrow arbitrate between the buyer and the seller, if a settlement is not possible then will the funds be released to the part with the most convincing prof.

Yes, but as you can see, the buyer is not interested do not release the funds, but the opposite, he is financially motivated to unlock them.

In a normal escrow scenario the escrow agent can: 1) make a mistake (a human factor), 2) be hacked, 3) be physically compromised, 4) scam the buyer and the seller (as it usually happens here) or 5) just simply disappear (for any reason)... So, what will you choose?
12  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Bitcointalk Escrows - Trade Safely! on: March 10, 2016, 02:45:50 PM
And why can he lose twice more coins than the seller? He received his goods already from the seller but he decided to get half of his coins in escrow back. Nothing the seller can do except giving in when the buyer created the deal with a newbie account. He would not care about red trust on that account.

I mean the coins on the MultiSig address, where the buyer locks up twice as much as the seller. In case when the buyer refuses to release the funds, he gets the goods (1x) but loses twice more coins than this goods worth (2x), his profit is x-2x=-x - not the best situation to lay down the conditions... Yes, for the seller the situation is not better, but at least he will have the chance to punish the scammer and leave him without his money, and I am sure, after that, the buyer will never try to repeat this scenario.
13  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Bitcointalk Escrows - Trade Safely! on: March 10, 2016, 09:36:42 AM
So how does the seller get his funds if the buyer refuses to release in this situation? That's what breaks your logic. And yes it would be nice to have people that are honest and all. But a scammer in this situation would talk you into that logic.

I think the the buyer can refuse to release the funds only in one situation, if he is oligophrenic person with defective brain (like some subjects here) has a problem with logic, because in this situation he can lose twice more coins than the seller.
14  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Bitcointalk Escrows - Trade Safely! on: March 09, 2016, 09:59:04 PM
Yes, an escrow is a point of failure but the same is true for your scenario. You only need one of these scammy escrows or a hacked escrow account and you already have zero security from that 2of3 multisig that you described. The scammer would initiate a trade with an altaccount, deal as the escrow and screw the other trading partner because the scammer already holds 2 of the keys to release the coins to himself.

I did not have seen yet a fully safe scenario there too. You could involve more than one escrows though that would mean more time it takes, more work and maybe higher fees. For more security though.

Still an escrow is needed for negotiating while problems. With 2 of 2 you run into the risk that one of your trading partners claim you did send something wrong or that he threatens you to not release the coins until you agree to pay half of the price back.

It's often suggested but it is only a partly solution for some problems and many remain unsolved or other attack vectors are there.

According to my scheme/scenario there is no third party, the address is created only from the buyer and the seller public keys, so it is 2-of-2 MultiSig. The buyer can not scam the seller because he locks up twice as much as the seller, so he is motivated to be honest.
15  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Bitcointalk Escrows - Trade Safely! on: March 09, 2016, 03:38:44 PM
I wonder if you are new on here or if your english is only that bad that you miswrote what you meant. I doubt that you really believe that a scammer can be motivated to be honest to his trading partner.

Without escrows the situation on bitcointalk would be way way worse. You never notice it because so many scams are stopped in the beginning only because an escrow is mentioned, then another big bunch when the escrow gets involved and alot of deals end before the escrow got released because before that doubts appear or a clear accusation comes into.

Well, I think you miswrote... or you somehow managed to never get scammed.

I am not miswrote. There are a lot of examples here proved that a third party always will be the weak link in any deal. And some of you already can agree with it.

The more parties you involve in a transation, the more points of failure there are.

I'm always wonder how somebody still use the third party escrow in our community when the bitcoin protocol already gives more higher level of security than can give any trusted escrow. Very sad, that people can not understand, that more mature escrow service and longer history can not protect them from human error, hacking/physical compromising, from disappearing of the agent or the scam from his side...

Here is an example of the escrow scheme that motivates scammer to be honest to his trading partner:
1. The escrow agent creates a transaction, according to which the buyer collateral & the buyer payment for goods (2x) + the seller collateral (1x) will be sent to the created from their public keys MultiSig address.
2. The buyer and the seller checks and sign the transaction, the transaction is broadcasted to the network.
3. After the transaction is confirmed, the seller sends the goods to the buyer.
4. The buyer receives the goods and informs the escrow agent.
5. The escrow agent creates the transaction, according to which the seller will receive the seller collateral & the buyer payment for goods (2x) and the buyer will receive the buyer collateral (1x).
6. The seller and the buyer checks and sign the transaction, the transaction is broadcasted to the network.

Actually, this scheme will encourage both sides to be honest, and if something happens with the parcel to conduct a thorough investigation and find the consensus.
16  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Bitcointalk Escrows - Trade Safely! on: March 09, 2016, 10:01:04 AM
At the end it's correct that it's not possible to make it totally safe. As escrow you can only try to find potential risks and avoid them or try to lessen them.

The best way to make the deal safe is to motivate both parties to be honest each with other and eliminate the third side that can make responsible decisions (such as escrow agent).
17  Economy / Services / Re: Veritas Escrow Service / MultiSig m-of-n tx support [BTC/LTC/PPC/NVC] on: December 29, 2015, 12:35:54 AM
OK, so that gives you a way of 2 people safely transacting without the need of any escrow. Very nice.

There's still a slight issue:

The buyer locks up twice as much as the seller. If I pose as a seller when I have no intention of selling, I can get you to lock up 2 BTC of your funds while only locking up 1 BTC of mine. As soon as you lock up your 2 BTC I tell you I'm a scammer, and that I need a 50/50 split to release the coins. You have to choose between getting back 1.5 BTC or nothing. Which would you choose?

Maybe some people would sacrifice the 1.5 BTC just so the scammer takes a loss. But I expect most people would agree to the 50/50 split because it's in their own best interest.

Before a purchase people look for the best seller with a good trading history. So the seller is risked not only 1 BTC, but also his reputation which worth more than a single purchase. Also, he can't know exactly what kind of buyer he will get, because when people are going to buy something they usually not spend the last money, and I'm sure, most of them, when got a chance, will prefer to punish the scammer and leave him without reputation and money.
18  Economy / Services / Re: Veritas Escrow Service / MultiSig m-of-n tx support [BTC/LTC/PPC/NVC] on: December 28, 2015, 10:14:20 PM
Thank you for your reply, your opinion is appreciated.

My first question to this would be why we need an escrow agent at all in this scheme. He has no power and doesn't do anything that the buyer or seller couldn't do.

You doesn't, if you are capable to perform such transaction (this will be great).

My second question is what happens if the seller is a scammer, and doesn't send any coins in step 3? The buyer has just lost 2x his coins and has no chance of getting them back if the scammer doesn't cooperate. The scammer can make a transaction paying 1.9x coins to himself and 0.1x coins to the buyer. The buyer has to choose between signing the transaction and getting 0.1x coins back or not signing it and getting 0 coins back.

This scheme was modified, but I have not edited this post (done). Actually, step 2 and 3 was combined in one, so the buyer and seller funds are sent to the MultiSig address at the same time and in the same transaction.
19  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Master-P POSSIBLE SCAM. I lost complete faith in this forum now. on: December 28, 2015, 09:21:45 PM
If the seller and the escrow agent are the same person in 3-of-3 MultiSig transaction (buyer+seller+escrow agent keys), scammer will need the third (buyer) key to own the funds.

3-of-3 is no use because the scammer can hold the funds hostage.

This is much better than lose the funds (give them to scammer). If you need full protection here is the scheme.
20  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Master-P POSSIBLE SCAM. I lost complete faith in this forum now. on: December 28, 2015, 08:54:03 PM
That is called a multisig transaction, but then what if the seller and the escrow are the same person? Then that does nothing since he can still scam.

how would that work if escrow colludes with one of the parties?

which is what appears to have happened with Master-P and a few recent transactions

If the seller and the escrow agent are the same person in 3-of-3 MultiSig transaction (buyer+seller+escrow agent keys), scammer will need the third (buyer) key to own the funds.
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