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1  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL fucked us over again on: November 23, 2014, 11:11:36 AM
@ gorgatron

Same goragron - forgot password again, and BCT isn't sending out an email to rest my passwords. so, here's yet another account. lol

What happened (generally speaking) to customers who got a refund but weren't returned the full amount for extra shipping paid. Like upgrade purchases where the customer backed out of a purchase but didn't always get their due amount. (numerous examples on BFL forums)

Edit: And what was the story behind the flurry of emails to customers with tracking numbers that never went anywhere? Innocent mistake or...?

sorry for the delay. i'm in the sticks, and don't have continuous internet connection, and I hate this forum. only here because of the topic at hand. apart from some interesting nuggets, and some humor, I fond this place to breed the lowest form of human discourse. not pointed at you, but rather some regulars that we all know and love, and their some other random morons. much of the speculation is rather weak, which is to be expected, given that speculation is all readers have to go on apart from docs opened by the FTC, as well as archived forum posts from these boards and those at BFL, even before being whitewashed. fucking pussies.

as to your question, I unfortunately have no answer. I never dealt with refunds, and I'm not sure about the timeframe you're alluding to. during my time, if a refund came through a chargeback via credit card, purchasers had a percentage taken away by their card issuer for their trouble. as for not refunding shipping, that just sounds rather odd, though I don't doubt your credibility. you're one of the few I haven't written off as a moron. Wink

there's no telling what justifications were used. perhaps they decided to claim that postage was considered paid at the time of order or some bullshit. hard to tell, since one day policy was one way, and the next day another. it depended on the wind, I think. if this occurred during recent calls for refunds related to Monarch orders, I wouldn't have been privy to any communications, as I wasn't around. I was out of the main inbox by November 2013, and had little to do with it as of September 2013 as I began to transition into a different role as support for another employee. Refund requests would have gone to those named Abby, Emily (might remember her selfies from the forums before she was pulled), and the head refund specialist (I use "specialist" with great irony ad sarcasm) named Alicia. Partial refunds were not really uncommon, but I don't recall them being the norm. If they were frequent and there were many complaints, again, I'll take your word for it.

though I don't think you're referring to my RMA comment regarding customers paying return shipping, that was simply a lack of professionalism, and caused some debate. Guess who lost. lol

The tracking numbers: If you're referring to the 65 nm products, mistake, or rather an issue where the vendor we used recycled those numbers. so, a customer would receive a tracking number with false info, and after 24-48 hrs, the correct info would then be populated in most cases. if there were cases where the tracking numbers went literally nowhere, I'm not sure what was the issue. sometimes a tracking number would be issued, and if it was going through USPS, as most did, in some instances the info wouldn't be populated until right before or after delivery, which is on USPS. That shipping system had a number of glitches, which were not easily fixed, and support was extremely weak. That said, I'm not certain if some in the shipping dept at that time were diligent when it came to seeking vendor support. the recycled tacking number issue took a few months to filter down to those of us answering customer queries. lots of instances of orders getting lost in the shuffle or skipped as well. not malice but poor quality of work. BFL wasn't known for hiring people based on qualifications. An example: I stated during my interview that most of my knowledge at that time regarding BTC came from two NPR reports, one on Silk Road, and one which was more neutral and informing the layman of a new type of "currency" that was gaining popularity. This was summer of 2012. I told them that I built my own PCs, and they were easily impressed by this fact, which most here know a monkey could do. I knew two people that worked there, and that's probably what mainly landed me the position. most personnel were friends of friends, or at least acquaintances.  in the beginning, very few had any technical skills. I might be politely called an advanced user by a novice, but a standard-level user by those of you with more technical skills. I don't like to buy what I can build myself, so I build my PCs. It was an easy job to get, that much I can say.

I'll go dark again until Tuesday or Wednesday. send a PM with the timeframe you're specifically referring to to my original gorgatron account, since I'll be back at my main terminal by Wednesday and using that account again. I'll try to provide any answers I can, or others you might have. aside from referring to certain technical questions which are covered by an NDA, most procedural issues are open game. i'm fine with providing what info i can recall and was around to witness.


I passed along bcp19's comments to Helen Wong. the one about being "shot and hung." for months I read comments like"you all should die" and death threats. Josh isn't exaggerating there. I didn't think it was cool when it happened then, and don't think it was cool that a BFL employee with too much time on his hands made such a comment even in jest. besides the tactic of deflection, the subversive intimidation attempts are out of bounds on both ends as far as I'm concerned. links and screenshots of the posts to that respective thread were sent and a conversation followed via phone. Not sure if such rhetoric falls within the scope of the FTC's case, but doesn't hurt to pass along.i've become rather intolerant of the pseudo tough-talk coming from these boards, even in jest.

while the FTC is skimming the boards, most likely, whatever falls outside the scope of their arguments, while likely noted for any future actions perhaps taken by other agencies down the line, they will not be included. Bruno's work tracing possible laundered funds will be noted, but I doubt they become part of the current action, as such matters are not stipulated in the docs put forth outlining their grievances against BFL, and will be saved for other filings by other agencies, should there be an entity to actually sue. I, too, am curious if any criminal action will be taken against anyone beyond Sonny given his past and current probation, while also having only escaped a harsher period than an extension of 2 years due to the testimony and credentials of those such as B. Bourne on his behalf. Drake was given different titles along the way to likely give her plausible deniability to some actions, or that is at least the only reason I can see for frequent title changes. in the office, she was always GM and head of Customer Service, even when she spent months in shipping doing a shit job. Just read my rant several pages back regarding lack of diligence regarding proper exportation to EU member states using SAD protocol. in essence, I had a desk job for which I was qualified. those such as Drake, and others at that level, were out of their depths, plain and simple. drunk on power of position, advice from those in the lower ranks was generally scorned. that's a long story, however, and I write enough already.

to clarify another statement I've made that not all BFL employees currently active are not there to "help," I'm referring to the fact that many went without a paycheck for up to 4 weeks. they appear as team players, but really needed the cash. again, lack of foresight or laziness when it came to saving their own skins at the most basic level by not following the hierarchy of needs. this happened to both good people and pieces of shit alike. For some, it was one of those cases where you have a job, and adding the stress of looking for other work compiles upon the anxiety that stems from working in that environment. I had connections to fall back on, and was simply lucky in that regard. if you're a normal human being, you've been in the same spot with a job you hated, except in this case, you job wasn't likely with a company being investigated for fraud over a longer length of time than simply the date the FTC and Federal Marshall Service crashed their little party. Now, some of the biggest agitators have nothing better to do than to sit around and page turn (not sure what the exact meaning of this is, but get the general idea as I pick up on your vernacular), and trying to draw the conversation into a direction in which it devolves into posturing instead of exchanging, at times, possible valid ideas.

why anyone comes to their defense at this point is beyond comprehension, since the papers submitted by the defense looks like they were written by a first-year law student, who never read, nor understood Kafka, and the actual meaning of Kafkaesque. Not uncommon, however, since most don't know his history, and that his writings were specific to the times in which he lived, often referring to abuses by aristocracy, which made the laws and created a confounded bureaucracy, added to that no standard of due process given that those in power could trump up charges in a way the FTC is not able to do according to their charter - which the defense should read.while i'm uncertain at which point members of the BFL forums turned into a Josh Zerlan cult, ready to believe such crap such as the FTC is the reason everything went to pot, it also speaks to either the amount of censorship now present, or that the main customer base is now comprised of newbies who have no clue as to the actual history of the company. no other arguments make sense. to believe that all would have gone smoothly had the FTC not requested a court appointed receiver is absolutely laughable. That's like saying PayPal was in the wrong to freeze a couple million dollars until the refund issues of the 65 nm fiasco was settled. BFL would have sorted it all out if PayPal hadn't been dicks. yeah, right. that's the thing about compulsive lies. once you start, you can only create more or come clean. an obvious choice was made for the former tactic, not the latter.that shit will catch up with you sooner or later as observed in the internal Skype logs posted in FTC docs. the lack of empathy displayed by the higher-ups is appalling, and this comes from someone who admittedly has a hard time understanding empathy, though the motion can be reduced to a set of right and wrong propositions. in other words, what is morally permissible, and what is not. Why they didn't keep things simple only speaks of greed. using pre-ordered gear to mine, regardless of the grey area of whether the units were assigned to customer X or Y is not all too important. by promoting a sense that customers were investors as well, the foot was proverbially shot. if the goal is to move away from modern banking methods, why use gear funded by customers to effectively earn interest on the customers' investments? new boss same as the old boss? the faux Libertarian rhetoric is nonsense. their ideology is straight neo-liberalism taken right out of Chicago School economics regarding profit. maximize profit at all costs. that was the methodology in play as evident by record. no need to read between the lines there.At best, they are shut down, but any other action or accountability pertaining to other players won't come to light for a long tie ti come, if ever. to claim that the FTC is the government's in-road to the downfall of BTC or control thereof is a simply laughable argument, since such actions would be undertaken withing a bi-partisan committee at the congressional level, and would be allowed or declared defunct literally by an act of congress, not the FTC - read their fucking mandate Josh! they are a federal consumer protection entity, which is why the scope of their complaints laid out in black and white. if I'm not mistaken, and I could be, so feel free to correct me - anyone - that the U.S. government sees BTC as a useful commodity tool for investment ventures. one that is risky and, from their point of view, needs more study and possible oversight, which is typical within capitalist economic structures, as oversight of financial tools is one of the basic pillars laid out in 1776 by Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations, and less clearly in his 1759 work, The Theory of Moral Sentiments. the banking sector has always been an area not trusted by classical liberals, despite what those like Friedman would have had people believe. In actuality, the debate of personal gain upon the backs of others, as in profit not earned by merit but by questionable acts such as earning extra profit by price gauging, usury (interest), or earning profit by overcharging customers for materials already paid for (this could potentially be applied to the burn-in issue) go as far back as Aristotle, and some of the best work on this issue was written several hundred years back by Thomas Aquinas. Suma Theologica II, I believe, but might have been in the first part. It's been a while since I've brushed up on my history of economic thought, admittedly. In all, the debate brought by the FTC is ages old, and nothing new at all. It simply now comes a bureaucratic agency like the FTC mandated with consumer protection instead of the Department of Treasury, the Universalists (Catholics, for those who missed the antiquated terminology), or the privileged voting class of Aristotle's days. undue profit has always been a point of contention, and now, due to that organizations interpretation of customer complaints and observations, BFL is on the same chopping block. It's really nothing new form a historical standpoint, and for BFl to pretend that they are innocent of ill-gotten gains is lunacy. As a company that proclaimed to provide the "pickaxes and shovels" fr the mining community, they broke their own code of rhetoric by profiting from the burn-in process. That's what truly makes that aspect relevant. They claimed to only prvide the machines for profit, not use them for the same intent. this is an aspect that shouldn't be overlooked. as for how it plays in the bigger picture of the case brought by the FTC is another thing, but it is certainly a factor. Ultimately, failure to ship a commodity-producing product within any kind of reasonable timeframe is bad enough. simply stating that the wait will be long so buckle up is legally not good enough, and doesn't cover their asses. to find out behind the scenes that tape out occurred months after the date posted on their website at the time the product was introduced to potential customers is morally reprehensible, has it provides a false sense of time in which one might receive a potential order. That is damning in itself. Josh has repeatedly stated in past posts that customers are responsible for informed decisions. I've read this in older posts where he tries to put the onus back on the customer to deflect responsibility on the part of BFL as mining is a risky venture. the latter is true. but by leaving the tape out date as August 2013 at least until January 2014, when I was released, is disingenuous, and provides customers with false info upon which to base purchasing decisions. couple that with his updates on the BFL forum and you have a scenario where the mfg is effectively misleading its customer base. Simply put, BFL was wrong on many levels, and now that they are being taken to task, they curl up, play the victim, except when certain cretins are not deflecting to derail the larger topic of discussion. much of their legal troubles could have been deflected by refunds, customer transparency by way of weekly or monthly newsletters explaining the nature of the business, as it is rather complicated TBH, and the simple dissemination of legitimate information, instead they acting like assholes to this day. how can one have one ounce of pity for an entity which could have solved most of their woes through honesty and following true values of freedom of choice? let customers experience whether other vendors are better or worse by recouping spent capital and let the market decide. Instead, they company was heavy handed and withheld customer funds against their will. If there was a logical motive, such as shortage of funds, let it be known and don't use company funds to purchase a home for Sonny in a residential area for which he isn't worthy if the company cannot afford it. Also, stop focusing on Josh's McMansion purchased via BTC. as decadent as it is, and the likelihood that not all funds were obtained through honest work, though proof that it wasn't is speculative, and therefore cannot be easily proven in a court of law, the focus should be on the purchase of company homes, expensive vehicles for the majority stakeholder to drive, as if it mattered if he drove his nice Audi or his Jaguar, which may have pre-dated BFL for all I know. Those are the true abuses of the mismanagement of costumer funds which should be of true focus. Josh isn't on the chopping block, so it matters not if he gets on here and stirs te pot, pissing people off and looking into which stupid sports car he's driving or the fact he bought a half-million dollar home with BTC, ill-gotten or no. That is a simple deflection tactic to get you to focus on his sorry ass, instead of the case and company against which it was brought. those are the only facts that matters. if you find his stupid shit entertaining, don't add him to the ignore list, but otherwise ignore anything he or Bruce Peterson have to say, as they are simple pulling the conversation away from the ills of BFL. Josh has little to lose at the moment, so he can play antagonist and even get fucking paid for it! people fall for it because they hate him. it's so transparent that it's pathetic. Hate the guy, but what he write here is irrelevant and not of consequence. his Skype logs, on the other hand speak volumes, upon which I need not even elaborate. Karma is a bitch, and his luck will run out, so why fucking bother entertaining him? every reply you send makes him laugh because you're playing right into his hands. Peterson's tactics are Zerlan-light. why bother to respond. nothing either says has any merit nor needs a response. yeah, I realize the response come out of anger and hatred, but add nothing of value to the conversation. it's simply another deflection. I realize most of you know this, but ignore and stay on task. look, I totally realize i sound extremely preachy in this post, but after reading the last several pages, i begin to lose any sense of how this massive dialog is in any way helpful to the greater cause. unless you receive a veiled threat such as Bicknellski did, which should be immediately reported, ignore those dicks. I realize this is easier said than done, but they want you to use them as straw men,  and move the conversation towards you hate towards them and not the actions of BFL. many of you are great when you're productive, but when you begin to focus your efforts on these other players who ar not mentioned in the suit brought forth by the FTC, you move beyond the scope ad your efforts are simply moot. The focus should be the wrongdoings of the company, Darla "Jody" Drake and her poor leadership, Nasser and his opdn willingness to simply treat customers as garbage, and Sonny's role, at which point it DOES make sense to tie him to Jeff Ownby, who also should have been named with the rest, but somehow escaped.not sure how, but likely because h;'s not an official officer of the same status, despite playing an obvious =s large role in day-to-day activities/poloicy, to which i can attest, Bruce Brourne should have his ass in a sling as well, but managed to also escape. I love how he talks about how jobs are lost, talent lost, which is a real stretch of the meaning of that latter word. sure, it costs money to train new help, but msoto=of the tasks done by htose he;s hinting at could e done by a monkey, since that what was basically filling the seat of the "talent" in the first place. there was no substantial loss, and that dick knows this. it's the victim position all over again.

You really want leave a mark? contact the FTC and the receiver with extensive details of mishandling of your orders and lack of willing compensation and constructive communication on the part of BFL, and when necessary disclose abuse by Zerlan and Peterson, as that has a chance of making a difference, even if part of your grievances has been stated previously. add something new new and relevant. the more valid complaints, the better.

i wish i were the guy with the smoking gun, so to speak, but am not. i just see wheels spinning, and how easily Josh and Peterson can derail to valid conversation and find it disheartening. this broader discussion won't matter unless it it brought to the attention to the right people. fellow members of BCT are nt always the right people. build and sign a petition, or something else constructive.

sorry for the long rant, and lack of use of paragraphs, but stream of conscious. It's late, I'm an insomniac, will now cease boring all of you to death. i also apologize for all of the typos, as I can barekt see r type at this point. I'm looking forward to Monday, and hope things begin to move forward,
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