So at what point does it become something for Joe Average? What crucial steps do you see between now and when I should adopt Bitcoin?

I am an american.

This is the one and only comment I will make on Wikileaks. I like the idea. I believe that governments should be transparent.

This does not change the fact that Wikileaks is legally questionable at best. To my understanding, if you provide a document that is labeled 'classified' by the department of defense to the public, it is a crime. You could argue the criminal was the person who orginally uploaded the document, but I believe the wording of the law is vague enough to cause doubt as to how Wikileaks is.

I see it the way I would see prohibition- I do not support the law. I think the law could/should change. But that does not change the fact that it's currently Illegal, or helping others commit crimes.

The Klu Klux Klan is despicable, but they are not to my knowledge you could not accuse them of a crimes as an organization.

I support Wikileaks.

I also wholeheartedly understand why Mastercard, Visa, and Paypal won't do business with them. If my business/job was on the line as theirs is, I would not risk it either.

Call me a coward if you want, but I call it pragmatism. Ideals are great things, but I've never bought food with them.

I will not continue this discussion on this thread, which is for asking why the average consumer would benefit from Bitcoins.

So how do you change this? The sending money worldwide without worrying about conversion (Well, assuming bitcoin prices stabilize) is a good thing. It's also the only one I'm hearing.

A lot of talk about the upsides to Bitcoin requires Bitcoin be in common use. Sending money just to friends, not paying credit card fees, or having to worry about PayPal. To see these as superior to the alternatives, the community needs to sell the concept of Bitcoin. It's an uphill struggle.


It feels like one of the main reasons people get involved with BTC is as an investment vehicle- Either to start mining, or to play the 'buy low sell high' game (I guess scammers could fall under this too, get money quick schemes). This doesn't support BTC in the long run- A major drop in the exchange rate and people in this category would leave. Already I get the feel that most of the forks are in the same vein- Longing for the days when BTC was much easier to mine, before the peak in prices over the summer.

From a layperson view, I'd think getting more Average Joe's into BTC would help support the stability of the currency. It would certainly help get more established merchants to accept it, and help ensure its longevity. I just don't see an effort made to legitimately make Bitcoin attractive.

Addressing my thoughts on this.

1) Tip your favourite blogger ten cents with a near-zero transaction fee (less than a penny).

Understood, though 10 cents seems a bit more of an insult then a tip. A dollar or two for no transaction fees is fine.

2) Write a book, create artwork, play a song, upload it, and sell it, now. No shopping carts, no publishers, no distributers, no PayPal, no credit cards, no addresses

I've actually looked into this, before I heard about Bitcoin. In this day and age it's actually pretty easy to setup a merchant site, or work with something like amazon's publishing service.Joe average can do it, if not as well as an expert. Bitcoin may make it a little easier. Oh the other hand, this is what also makes Bitcoin attractive to scammers.

3) Send a dollar to someone half a world away for less than a penny.

4) Send ten thousand dollars to someone half a world away for less than a penny.

These points could just be one point- which also is the same as the first point. Bitcoin offers cheap money transactions.  If i had contacts, I could almost see starting a Western Union style service. On the other hand, i'm hearing mixed things about the speed of Bitcoin transfers, and at this moment in time I'd have to turn around and exchange that money for local currency which in some places could be a three step process with more associated fees. (also, Id have to trust every single node involved to not take the money and run, or give false information as I took in applications to open branches)
It's one of Bitcoins better selling points, but it still need maturing for the public at large.


5) Maintain a savings account without paying someone else to hold your money or give it back to you.
 

My first thought at this question was "well, I could just stuff all my cash in a safe for the same benefit." Then I reread.
I have three bank accounts. None of them cost me money. My savings account earns money- not much, but it's still money they give me for keeping my money there. My checking accounts are free. For one checking account, I did have to pay a small onetime fee for a debt card, but that is the only fee involved. I've never had to pay ATM fees either- There's a slight, ever so slight inconvenience in that I have to keep track of where a branch ATM is if I need money, but I pass two of them on the way two and from work every day. I realize this may be a case where I'm not as much Joe Average- but There are decent banks out there.

6) Withdraw your winnings from an online casino - all of it - and get it instantly. Do it without anyone knowing your name or where you live.

7) Playing poker at your buddy's place? Don't worry about stopping at an ATM to get cash. Settle your winnings at the end of the night without trying to figure out how to make change.

Online poker I can see. But playing poker with your buddies- This isn't something I personally do, but if I did, I'd bring the cash I was planning on spending with me. Maybe I just don't get it.

Eating out at a restaurant and the waitress won't split the bill? Let someone else pay and give them the exact amount you owe, to the penny. No need to carry cash.

9) Running out from the office to buy lunch for your co-workers? No need to collect the money in advance. Send them the payment address and they can pay their share without leaving their desks.

These hinge on the same thing that 7) does. I would need my buddies/coworkers to use Bitcoins. And if I wanted to get them to use Bitcoins, Their first question would be "Why".. which is what I'm asking right in this thread. Sure, paying debts back and forth via BTC might be simpler, but it's going to take a lot more then that to convince the people I associate with- especially when most of them have a low level of technical knowledge- to put a significant amount of money into BTC.

10) Set up an online store in minutes. No shopping carts, no payment processors, no fees.

11) Receive a payment and not worry about a chargeback from the credit card company or from PayPal. All payments are final.

10) is pretty much Identical to 2). It's incredibly easy to setup a Bitcoin business. From what I've seen, there isn't much hassle involved in becoming a Paypal business. I'm actually kinda uneasy about being so easy to setup a business- In the course of writing this, I realized not only does it invite scams, but it also requires less dedication on the part of the merchant. If I am serious about selling widgets online, I can spend time setting up a website and dealing with paypal. If that much is too hard, How do I expect to keep up if my shop becomes popular?

For that matter, I could sell things on ebay, or even just go to the communities I frequent and trade paypal information.

12) Send money to any organization. No middle-man can stop you from supporting a cause.

This contains a link to news about wikileaks. I applaud the ideal. I also am not comfortable bringing my politics into this- I want a reasoned debate, not a flaming. The thing is, Wikileak's politics aside - The reason a middleman would stop you, in every scenario I can think of, is illegality. As I responded to thefighter - This is not a reason for me to get into BTC. This is not the main reason to advertise BTC. This is a reason that any established business looking at accepting BTC would hesitate to associate with. Ideals are fine, I support you there. But if the primary drive of Bitcoin is to get money to business that paypal, mastercard, or banks won't touch because of legal concerns, the future of Bitcoin is not so bright.

13) Protect your wealth from your country's unsustainable financial policies without destroying the environment or native land.

Link to a discussion about the environmental damage of gold-mining. Without an economy background, I can't comment on 'unsustainable financial policies' (although also a bit confused. I thought a lot of nations were no longer on the gold standard?). I can ask about the impact of Bitcoin mining though. It probably is not be as bad, but I'd like to see the numbers.

14) Travel to another country. Cover your expenses without exchanging currencies (coming soon).


Well, let me know more about that when it's happened.

My carelessness? Again, I'm Joe Average, but I have some standards I try to follow. If i'm looking at an online store that I have never used before, I look for a contact us page first- But I've seen more then a fair share of sites that don't have anything other then an email address. Then I look around for reviews- but what if the site is only a year old? Or how do I judge reviews? Astroturfing is a fear with anything that has too many 5 star reviews. I've seen more then one site that I waffled forever on if it looked or felt legitimate.
Now put this in terms of bitcoin where a lot of these merchants are six months to a year old. Oh, it's easy enough to identify a scammer once they've taken someones money and run, but until then... I don't know what you consider DD with just opened Bitcoin merchants.

And Bitcoin- if it is as anonymous as people say, has the incentive for long haul scams. I'm really not going to discuss the mybitcoin accusations- but the fact that people think it's possible someone started an exchange, waited a long while, before making off with a large sum of coins. Even if that's not what happened here, what's to stop it from happening in the near future?

This doesn't really appeal to me. I am understanding this as products/services that are illegal. While I have my own opinions about the laws involved, I don't think going to Bitcoin to use the net to circumvent them is a good idea. Bitcoin is anonymous, but still has transparent transactions. Also, if this is really the driving force of Bitcoin, it tarnishes the image of any legitimate merchants considering using it.

Issues like this are what i'm trying to address in my 'why bitcoin' thread. It's why I'm very hesitant about BTC as viable for the average consumer.

To my understanding of US tax laws- If you earn money, it needs to be reported. If you make a tidy amount selling widgets for BTC, you'd need to report that income- Just as if you would report money earned in a foreign currency. (Especially if you then exchange the BTC for USD to buy food/pay bills/buy jetskis).

Even if BTC is not considered an actual currency, it's still a possession of some value- and I know at some point they ask about that. I've seen someone claim that 'BTC only has the value that's assigned to it' but that's true of well, everything.

I'd talk to a tax accountant about, if you have a decent sized wallet. Better to consult on it once, then muck up and look at fees and penalties.  I'm not going to assume it falls through a loophole just because I really want it to.

This is true, but it's harder to be scammed by cash based merchants. It's possible, but generally if you walk into an office, store, or artist you can get a feel for the quality of work/product. There is also a lot more work involved on the scammers part, and the potential rewards are nominal for most products/services. Excluding unsolicited salesmen approaching me (the physical equivalent of wealthy Nigerian widows), I can shop with some faith that my cash isn't going to end up just vanishing.

And yes, bitcoin does have to be either/or to see the benefit. The main selling point of Bitcoin- what I've seen time and time again, is that If i am a merchant, I will never have to deal with chargeback fraud. But if i accept Bitcoin and PayPal, the people who are honest enough to use Bitcoin wouldn't scam me in the first place. As long as I accept Paypal, I have to worry that I will be given false chargebacks. I would want to encourage people to use BTC, if not outright exclude PayPal.

This doesn't address the issue that if the market moves up, it'll turn out my 2 bitcoins were worth more then 16 usd next week, and I'll feel I paid more then my widget was worth. If for example, the BTC value for me the day my widget arrived was $10 : 1btc, I'll feel that I could have had 4 more dollars, if I waited a week. This happens gradually with any currency, but when I'm looking at BTC price histories, I'm seeing pricechanges by over a dollar a day, and not infrequently.

Bitcoins price relative to another currency cannot be disregarded that easily.
Let's say I create widgets. I have to buy the raw materials to make widgets. These materials are not sold by vendors who take BTC. I have to pay the local currency for my parts. Let's say they cost 440 Baht to make apiece.  at the time, 1 Bitcoin is worth 300 Baht. I factor in my time and overhead, and sell widgets for 2.5 BTC.  Then Bitcoin's value drops to 270  baht- Roughly a change of 1 USD, at the end of the week. I turn to exchange my BTC for Baht to pay bills, buy more parts- and my profits may have disappeared. How am I supposed to make money, or even guarantee that I can break even, with a volatile currency?

The buyers is just as at risk. If i buy a widget for 2.5 BTC, that means I value a finished widget at 750 Baht. Before my widget arrives, BTC increases to 330 baht. Great for the seller, but this means my widget effectively cost me 825 Baht- When if i had dealt with another widget seller, the price would have been 755 Baht.  Why would I want to spend BTC that may end up costing me more then I want to spend?

Also, Googled and looked into bitcoin-police. It looks very new- two posts on a blog, wiki with a lot of info on the mybitcoin scandal. Have they successfully helped anyone recover funds? Or at least, brought any bitcoin scammers to some form of justice? 

Bitcoin shifts damage exclusively to the consumer. I have no economics background, but aren't there more consumers then merchants? Aren't merchants themselves consumers? PayPal is not a perfect system. Bitcoin does not offer improvements to the consumer- just to the seller.

I have a problem with this logic. Yes, large companies have influence over the market. However, most of these companies are successful because they understand their markets. Paypal is a big deal because paypal courts those looking for buyer-security. Why would a big company adopt Bitcoin? A company the size of amazon experiences minor fraud, but If they wanted to see the benefit of switching to Bitcoin, they would have to turn around and sell their customers on the idea of Bitcoin. They would have to push people to Bitcoin rather than paypal. And the concern I would see for them is the association. The first time a customer is scammed, their thought would be 'I never had this problem with paypal. Why did <company> tell me this is better?' And negative press spreads so much faster then positive.

From an outside perspective, I think it's a huge mistake for you to tell me that you don't want my business. I wouldn't bring a huge amount of money into the market, sure. but what about anyone else who is looking for the pros and cons of Bitcoins to the consumer and find this thread? I'm giving you a chance to make Bitcoin appealing to more people, and so far the most attractive thing I've heard is using it as a Western Union alternate.

That's the point- Bitcoins really don't offer any security against scammers. Paypal has flaws, but bitcoins don't offer leaps and bounds of improvements. Also just noting that due diligence is hard in a younger community like bitcoin merchants. Easy to get into, easy to run with a profit.  

I am aware of those fees, I've known a couple small business owners. But for those fees to disappear- That would require bitcoin being adopted to a universal standard in which these businesses did not need to process credit cards at all. So me, as a consumer wouldn't see this particular benefit until the 'why bitcoin' question in this thread became a moot point.

I understand that reversing charges can be used for petty fraud- but bitcoin is also vulnerable to fraud, is it not? The difference is who is the victim. With paypal, merchants have to worry about petty fraud, sure. What I'm seeing with bitcoin is the potential for the consumers to be scammed instead. At the same time, Its that much harder to deal with these scams- I'm sure fighting paypal on a reversed charge is an unpleasant, uphill battle, but if I send say, send 3k USD worth of bitcoins to someone for a custom watch that never manifests I have no recourse at all. The problem isn't with PayPal siding with customers, It's in people out to make a dishonest quick buck.

I've never paid a fee for my credit card. I've always paid the balance in full each month. Maybe I've lucked out.

I follow that you don't want others to have your personal information. I can even support that. My problem is not knowing where the money goes once it's gone. If I pay for goods that aren't provided, I want more then a bitcoin address/username to pursue matters with the seller, or to give to a law enforcement/fraud monitoring organization.

 I really hadn't considered using bitcoin as an alternate to western union. I could see some potential there, were it not for the fact the people I western union money to can barely be trusted to operate an email account.

I'm not an economist, so I don't immediately grasp what you are meaning by archaic thinking that results in higher prices. I'm assuming you don't mean anything related to processing fees for credit cards?

I realize this sounds like trolling or baiting for a reaction, but this is a legitmate question, that I would like to discuss.

I first heard of bitcoin when the silk road website hit the news. I poked around a bit, thought it sounded interesting, but it was way too soon to make any serious judgement. I meant to keep some tabs on it and see what happened, but it fell off my personal radar.

It was brought back to my attention when the link aggregate website I used made a passing reference to the troubles bitcoin has seen over the last month. Double so when the article it linked referenced pattaya- Where I currently live and work. So I've spent two days running through these forums and other new material. I have a lot of personal opinions, but I'm not looking to start a flamewar.

What I have is a single question- one that in two days, I've only seen one website attempt to address, and even then it was given very perfunctory treatment. Why bitcoin? The bitcoin FAQ assumes I understand this, or skips it.

 I'm Joe Average. I buy things online, predominately off Amazon, occasionally Newegg or Ebay. I have a paypal account, but I rarely use it- Really, only for Ebay. Either way, I have never run into a problem with either my bank, or paypal.

It seems like there is no real discussion- It's assumed that the people who read bitcoin websites understand the need for bitcoin. Or there is just no need to explain to others why bitcoin is superior to using a bank/credit/paypal system. There is a phrase I've seen used in probitcoin comments on articles. "Bitcoin will change the world" What I'm asking here is for clarification. Why/How?

On the wiki, there is a short section devoted to the question of Why bitcoin- but the points made feel.. debatable and a touch hastily done. I'm not sure I see the value in irreversible transactions, for instance. I like the idea that if something goes wrong, I can dispute charges relying on something more then the good nature of whatever person now has my money.

So I'm wondering if anyone here would like to explain the benefits for the average member of the public to use bitcoin rather then actual hard currency, or the current paradigm of credit and debt for online purchases?