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5441  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: puzzle; receive btc and make it spend-able only from different address on: July 22, 2013, 05:50:40 AM
It is not possible.
5442  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: What will happen when the number of bitcoins top off? on: July 21, 2013, 04:08:27 PM
The simple version:
1) Mining never end.  If mining ends then Bitcoin ends.
2) Miners are paid fees + subsidy.
3) The block Block subsidy declines over time and will reach zero in more than  120+ years.
4) When subsidy is zero then miners (obviously) are paid just fees.  Miner comp = fees + subsidy.  Miner comp = fees + 0.  Miner comp = fees.
5) It is highly unlikely that 8 decimal places will ever be insufficient and it is highly unlikely that 1 Satoshi will ever be worth more than 1 US penny.
6) Tx fees will not be a problem because they are volentary and are set by the sender.
7) Low priority tx have a "min mandatory fee" to protect the network from denial of service attack but this min mandatory fee can (and has 4 times) been lowered to accommodate the rising value of 1 BTC.


There is roughly ~$20T of currency (M1) used globally.  With 2 decimal places that is 2 quadrillion US pennies worth (2.0 x 10^15) and there are 2.1 quadrillion satoshis (2.1M BTC * 1E8 = 2.1 x 10^5).  There are more satoshis then there are pennies in the world (including US penny equivalents, all currencies, all countries).  In a (dubious) scenario where Bitcoin replaces all global currency and all other cryptocurrencies fail then 1S would be worth ~1 US penny circa 2012.   In any smaller scenario a satoshi will always be worth less than a penny.







5443  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Miner's Official Coin LAUNCH - NUGGETS (NUGs) on: July 21, 2013, 04:43:36 AM
Windows client is being compiled as we speak. I'll start a new post soon that is self-moderated. Vlad will be deleted from all posting and nobody else will ever be edited or deleted

LOLZ I expect your might get carpel tunnel syndrome from pressing the delete key so much.  You know Vlad will be incapable on not posting. 
5444  Economy / Economics / Re: Detroit Becomes Largest U.S. City To File Bankruptcy on: July 21, 2013, 03:07:46 AM
Might be a good time to buy-to-rent in Detroit. Especially if the USD tanks as that will mean that inland production will go up (imports gets more expensive). The bankruptcy might lead to better financial control and federal money/ local tax breaks etc

If I was in the US and wanted to start up a production facility, Detroit might be a likely location.

From the bottom the only way is up.  Wink

Please explain how an overburden of debt will tank the USD.  I see debt as deflationary since interest sucks dollars out of the economy.  Defaults will erase uninsured savings (don't keep more than the FDIC limit).  Made in the USA will return, but there will be few jobs.  Robots or 3-D printers are cheaper in the first year than human labor for many tasks.  Even further excess labor supply will lead to wage cuts.  Productivity per worker will boom as robots and software replace people.  Humans will still be needed for most construction (although people are 3-D printing skyscrapers now), robot maintenance, customer service, engineers, programmers, and highly delicate work (although this can be aided by machines).  Of course, there will still be demand for creative types to entertain and enlighten us.

Because we have >100% of GDP in federal debt when you combine state and local governments it is closer to 150%.  The only way you get out of that is the magic of inflation.  100% inflation (over say 15 years) means debt (which is not indexed to inflation) to GDP gets cut in half.

5445  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Assault weapon bans on: July 21, 2013, 02:51:45 AM
Ignorance breeds accidents. 
You gotta love em NRA crackers.
No, the picture showing incorrect and dangerous handling of weapons was made by an American anti gun lobby group.

If it's the NRA crackers that have to point out what safe and unsafe handling is, then, yeah, you gotta love them.

This.

NRA rules for gun safety.

Quote
ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.

although personally I find Cooper's rules a better teaching aid

Quote
All guns are always loaded.
Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

Anyways if you see guns potrayed in an unsafe manner it is usually by some gun grabber group.
5446  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Supposed ASIC Scrypt Miner | Scrypt ASIC International on: July 21, 2013, 02:16:59 AM
Something comparative to 230GB of GDDR5.

Um it is certainly a scam but what does 230 GB of GDDR5 have to do with anything?  You do realize Script uses none of the main memory on a GPU.  The main memory has far too much latency (latency for loading from GPU main memory is about 200-300 clock cycles).

A GPU which needed to use main memory would work for 10-20 clock cycles and then up to 300 (totally idle) and then work 10-20 and then wait up to 300, etc.  That is the whole point of scrypt.  A GPU which needs to use main memory on GPU would be beyond useless for hashing however the scrypt used by Litecoin (and others) is intentionally weakened to only use 128KB about 1% of what is recommended for LOW SECURITY (i.e. realtime logins) applications.  That's right Kilobytes of memory.  It uses the L1 cache located on the GPU processor itself (much like it uses L1,L2,L3 cache on a CPU).
5447  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Miner's Official Coin LAUNCH - NUGGETS (NUGs) on: July 21, 2013, 02:09:48 AM
You paid top dollar? I thought I'd seen you say 0.2 btc but maybe I'm mistaken. Your programmer running the code for two hours (just one client?) and thinking it's "smooth" means nothing. Your god number theories sound great, please do go on about them sometime.

The funny part is that one would think the second manifestation of Satoshi (Vlad) would have realized that the protocol has a zero block reward for first 250 blocks.  At 70 seconds per block it would take at least 4.87 hours to reach block 250.  The expected time between superblocks is 2 hours so a good test would have been 24-48 hours.
5448  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Miner's Official Coin LAUNCH - NUGGETS (NUGs) on: July 21, 2013, 12:38:45 AM
Is the github account Vlad's, or just something his programmer(s) put up? Does he even have any standing toward ownership of that account? This all seems like a complete non-issue. He's linking the first post of this thread to someone else's github account. He just needs to make his own github account and link to it instead. All this talk of legal action is baseless.

Great minds think alike that was my same conclusion above.  I have done contract work on my own github before.  Once complete the owner cloned it and dump it into a repository they control.   It takes all of a few seconds.  It would be stupid to do it any other way.  The fact that Vlad feels the repo has been taken "hostage" and yet still links to it (something even he could change) shows the level of stupidity we are dealing with here.


Presumably he paid someone to create a github account for his project and place in it the code of the project?

-MarkM-


Presumably but even true given there is a very simple solution. Hell it could have been solved in the time we wrote these posts. If it were you and you were in that situation what would you do.

a) clone the repo and update your link
b) threaten lawsuits against the psuedo anonymous developer

a actually solves the problem, b is just more dram for the troller-in-cheif.
5449  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Miner's Official Coin LAUNCH - NUGGETS (NUGs) on: July 21, 2013, 12:32:49 AM
Is the github account Vlad's, or just something his programmer(s) put up? Does he even have any standing toward ownership of that account? This all seems like a complete non-issue. He's linking the first post of this thread to someone else's github account. He just needs to make his own github account and link to it instead. All this talk of legal action is baseless.

Great minds think alike that was my same conclusion above.  I have done contract work on my own github before.  Once complete the owner cloned it and dump it into a repository they control.   It takes all of a few seconds.  It would be stupid to do it any other way.  The fact that Vlad feels the repo has been taken "hostage" and yet still links to it (something even he could change) shows the level of stupidity we are dealing with here.
5450  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Miner's Official Coin LAUNCH - NUGGETS (NUGs) on: July 21, 2013, 12:31:33 AM
In this case though, another principal applies.  This was a work for hire.    Part of that should have included them giving Vlad access to the repo.  The fact that this was not done and programmer X and Y are associates does indicate a dereliction  here .     So a hostile fork using the same repo that was created as part of this work for hire is probably actionable. 

Unless there was a contract and the contract specified control of a specific repo it is unlikely.  I mean there is a pretty simple solution, Vlad is in control (I use this term loosely) of this thread.  This thread links to a repo.  The repo it links to is the "official" (once again used loosely) repo.

Vlad clones the existing report and changes the link in the OP to the one he controls.  Tada.  It could have been done in about 2 minutes and done days ago.  Of course that would require someone with the most basic knowledge or competence.

Then again this is all academic.  He paid a grand total of $20 for a copy & paste job.  Nobody is suing anybody or anything related to the shitcoin.
5451  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Assault weapon bans on: July 21, 2013, 12:26:28 AM
In the UK teachers and most police don't have guns, the problem is American gun culture. To be fair though, your police are so insane that I don't blame you for wanting guns to feel safe, it is all the US knows. We are much safer here without guns.

The UK also has a much higher violent crime rate and that rate has increased over the last 20 years.  In the US most burglaries are committed on unoccupied residences, in the UK most burglaries involve occupied ones.
5452  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Assault weapon bans on: July 21, 2013, 12:23:44 AM


It bothers me...

Girl has not adjusted the stock properly....

And she has her finger in the triggerwell.  Come on people.  No reason to have finger on trigger until you are aiming (unless you idea of a good time is putting random rounds into belligerent ceiling tiles).
5453  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Miner's Official Coin LAUNCH - NUGGETS (NUGs) on: July 21, 2013, 12:18:56 AM
All that license talk is interesting and I've learned a lot! So basically, once it's sent into the wild, there's no turning back eh?

Simple version yes. Even if Satoshi can back he would have no direct "control" or legal ownership of the project.  Now being the founder and given the recognition people have of his accomplishments he would have a lot of influence but he would still need to convince users of any changes.  If Satoshi wanted to change the protcol to give him a 1% perpetual "king's tax" on all transactions I think most people would tell him to go frak himself and not accept those changes.  Case in point look at Linus in the Linux project, he doesn't rule with an iron fist (and actually has very little direct power under the law of any country) however many people respect his opinion.  However with an open source project once it has been released it is out there and you give up a lot of control.
5454  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Once again, what about the scalability issue? on: July 20, 2013, 07:00:42 PM

Yeah nonsense.  Some node running in Russia for example is going to be forced to give their data to the NSA?  I showed above how tx volume up to 100 tps is possible on existing hardware (run of the mill VPS).  Moore's law is still occuring, 1,000 tps+ in a decade is certainly possible on an even modest server with decent connectivity. 

Now is it likely we will reach a point where most users can't run a full node on a non-dedicated computer on a residential connection?  Probably given enough growth (at least 2-3 magnitudes).  However it is a logical fallacy to jump from that to "there will only be a handful of nodes controlled by the NSA".  That is just a figment of your imagination. 

We aren't talking about facebook scale dedicated datacenters.  A colocated server with 100 Mbps connectivity is more than sufficient.  Nothing crazy or exotic just decent amount of computing power, storage, and memory.  The idea that there can't be tens of thousands of nodes in hundreds of countries under a scenario like that is highly implausible.  If your paranoid then build a SPV client which only connects to different random nodes in US unfriendly countries and operates over TOR.


You are going to put your trust in the likes of Putin and the Chinese Central Party bearing in mind that an alternate monetary system threatens the control of their economies as much as it does the West (or would if it goes anywhere?)  OK, you do that.  For my part, I suspect that monitoring the Bitcoin network will be one of the areas where there is genuine cooperation as the benefits to the respective governments are huge.

Megauploads was just some racks of servers here and there with names like Carpathia on the cages.  Carpathia (and I suppose others) actually owned the gear, the likes of Equinix owned the floor-space, and the likes of Sprint owned the fiber and switches.  It took all of 5 minutes to halt the system (which was, IIRC, about 2% or 4% of the public Internet at one time.)  Pressure on anyone of the three providers would be sufficient to put Megauploads out of business for a period of time, and the legal justification was pretty weak compared to the (very real) national security implications of running a competitive alternate monetary solution.

As for TOR, all the government would have to do to severely limit it would be to stop funding it for Christsake.  Given the framework of backbone taps I'm even more convinced that it is nothing much more than a honeypot even when I try to convince myself otherwise.



Your right it is doomed.  Uninstall the client now before you are assassinated.
5455  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: prime coin mining- 3-5000pps, how long to get a block? on: July 20, 2013, 06:53:49 PM
These botnet herders have ruined it.


Any "CPU Only" coin will be ruled by the Botnets as soon as any profit is there.

That's what's so ironical about the Solidcoin idiots attempting to kill Litecoin two years ago when they developed the first GPU miner for it.

Little did they understand, the increased hashrate and saved LTC from the Botnets.


~BCX~

It's like the morons calling ASIC "the death of bitcoin" while it is exactly the opposite.

Yup.  Guess what most CPU come with today .... oh yeah an OpenCL capable integrated GPU.  Now these aren't no 7970s but they do have significantly higher hashing capability than a "pure CPU".  If there is money to be made harnessing the power of these APU/GPUs botnet operators will.  An A8-3850 has an "internal" HD6550D and can do about 100 MH/s.  Now even a botnet with ten thousand of these (~ 1TH/) don't put a dent into Bitcoin global hashing rate.  However 100 KH/s each on Scrypt based coins, a botnet with ten thousands is 1 GH/s or almost 4% of the network. 
5456  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Miner's Official Coin LAUNCH - NUGGETS (NUGs) on: July 20, 2013, 06:08:16 PM
Quote from: DeathAndTaxes
only because MIT lacks a "copyleft" provision
It's correct for any license, even for AGPL. If you are not an author, then you can't release copyleft code under restrictive license. But if you are author, then copyleft don't affect you and you can release the new versions under any license whatever you like. That's why oracle has all rights to release commersial versions of mysql, for example.

With MIT situation will be different... It has no copyleft, so you are able to release it under restrictive license even if you are not Satoshi, but you can't do anything with copyright messages in application Smiley

No that is not correct.  copyleft REQUIRES all future derived works to be licensed under a copyleft license.

Oracle uses a concept called dual licensing under which they release new versions under the copyleft license (to meet the requirement of the copyleft license) AND simultaneously release the software under a commercial license.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_license


Quote
What is "copyleft"? Is it the same as "open source"?
"Copyleft" refers to licenses that allow derivative works but require them to use the same license as the original work. For example, if you write some software and release it under the GNU General Public License (a widely-used copyleft license), and then someone else modifies that software and distributes their modified version, the modified version must be licensed under the GNU GPL too — including any new code written specifically to go into the modified version. Both the original and the new work are Open Source; the copyleft license simply ensures that property is perpetuated to all downstream derivatives. (There is at least one copyleft license, the Affero GPL, that even requires you to offer the source code, under the AGPL, to anyone to whom you make the software's functionality available as a network service — however, most copyleft licenses activate their share-and-share-alike requirement on distribution of a copy of the software itself. You should read the license to understand its requirements for source code distribution.)

Most copyleft licenses are Open Source, but not all Open Source licenses are copyleft. When an Open Source license is not copyleft, that means software released under that license can be used as part of programs distributed under other licenses, including proprietary (non-open-source) licenses. For example, the BSD license [and MIT license] is a non-copyleft Open Source license. Such licenses are usually called either "non-copyleft" or "permissive" open source licenses

Copyleft provisions apply only to actual derivatives, that is, cases where an existing copylefted work was modified. Merely distributing a copyleft work alongside a non-copyleft work does not cause the latter to fall under the copyleft terms.

What is a "permissive" Open Source license?
A "permissive" license is simply a non-copyleft open source license — one that guarantees the freedoms to use, modify, and redistribute, but that permits proprietary derivative works. See the copyleft entry for more information.


http://opensource.org/faq#copyleft
5457  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Once again, what about the scalability issue? on: July 20, 2013, 05:59:13 PM

Learn about bloom filters.

Are you saying that you can use them to make confusing pulls in an attempt to complicate analysis?  Good luck with that.

SPV nodes don't pull a single address or transaction.  It is more like "please send me all tx after block X which involve addresses starting with 1A".  The filter can be set as wide as one want, all the way up to everything (send me all tx from all address) as a full node would.  It is a tradeoff between privacy and bandwidth.  There is no need to even limit yourself to when you actually need tx data.  You can send a request for any subset of tx at any time to any node.  

One could randomly connect to a different random full node at random times and request random bloom filters which consist of real tx the SPV is interested in and tx it will simply receive and discard.

Yup.  That's what I thought you were implying.

Note that when all server operators are induced to provide their data to the NSA, your scheme of connection to random servers will be, if anything, a marker to induce more strident analysis.  The data will be completely centralized.

The addresses of interest to you will almost certainly be able to be extracted via statistical analysis as long as you have a bias.  The best you can do is to apply the same bias to a pool of unrelated addresses.  Then you shoot yourself in the foot because you get tagged if any of those addresses happen to be under scrutiny.

Lastly, if somehow you can devise an effective framework to, as a user, subvert a near total 'free' use of Bitcoin and popularize the technique, the plug is pulled on the solution in total which, being 'supernodes' relegated to operation in datacenters, it fairly straightforward to do (ask Kim Dotcom about this works.)



Yeah nonsense.  Some node running in Russia for example is going to be forced to give their data to the NSA?  I showed above how tx volume up to 100 tps is possible on existing hardware (run of the mill VPS).  Moore's law is still occuring, 1,000 tps+ in a decade is certainly possible on an even modest server with decent connectivity.  

Now is it likely we will reach a point where most users can't run a full node on a non-dedicated computer on a residential connection?  Probably given enough growth (at least 2-3 magnitudes).  However it is a logical fallacy to jump from that to "there will only be a handful of nodes controlled by the NSA".  That is just a figment of your imagination.  

We aren't talking about facebook scale dedicated datacenters.  A colocated server with 100 Mbps connectivity is more than sufficient.  Nothing crazy or exotic just decent amount of computing power, storage, and memory.  The idea that there can't be tens of thousands of nodes in hundreds of countries under a scenario like that is highly implausible.  If your paranoid then build a SPV client which only connects to different random nodes in US unfriendly countries and operates over TOR.
5458  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Once again, what about the scalability issue? on: July 20, 2013, 05:40:06 PM
doesn't electrum solve this already?

Is it trustless?

I've not studied Electrum extensively, but I believe it is 'trustless' in that someone running a server cannot steal your actual Bitcoin.  But the face value in BTC is only one aspect of 'value', and other information gleaned in running a server (Electrum or SPV) can be monetized at the expense of the clients.

Any entity can be put under enough pressure to either comply with government mandates (US government mandates in much of the world) or shut down and lose their infrastructure investment.  All of the PRISM participants chose the latter...it's the only logical choice.  And the only legal choice for corporations.

When the actual foundation of Bitcoin requires resources which exceed what enthusiasts can muster in order to be operated realistically it will be highly susceptible to becoming yet another cog in the state surveillance machine.  It will be either allowed to operate in order to siphon intelligence from the users or effectively shut down as a usable currency solution.  I'll bet on that...in terms of how I manage my BTC stash that is.

Learn about bloom filters.

Are you saying that you can use them to make confusing pulls in an attempt to complicate analysis?  Good luck with that.

SPV nodes don't pull a single address or transaction.  It is more like "please send me all tx after block X which involve addresses starting with 1A".  The filter can be set as wide as one want, all the way up to everything (send me all tx from all address) as a full node would.  It is a tradeoff between privacy and bandwidth.  There is no need to even limit yourself to when you actually need tx data.  You can send a request for any subset of tx at any time to any node.    One could randomly connect to a different random full node at random times and request random bloom filters which consist of real tx the SPV is interested in and tx it will simply receive and discard.
5459  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Miner's Official Coin LAUNCH - NUGGETS (NUGs) on: July 20, 2013, 05:36:05 PM
It seems that you haven't read message properly. You are correct with that, but it's correct for existent copies only. If you have a copy, you have all rights and can redistribute this rights as well. But future version could be published under non-MIT proprietary license if all authors will accept this. It's correct for any license, and there are many examples of previously opensource project which came proprietary.

I read it perfectly.  Sure future derived version of the Bitcoin software could be released under a more restrictive license (only because MIT lacks a "copyleft" provision).  That doesn't make existing copies "go away" and it doesn't require anyone to use the new version. It is a non-issue.  
5460  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Once again, what about the scalability issue? on: July 20, 2013, 05:31:11 PM
doesn't electrum solve this already?

Is it trustless?

I've not studied Electrum extensively, but I believe it is 'trustless' in that someone running a server cannot steal your actual Bitcoin.  But the face value in BTC is only one aspect of 'value', and other information gleaned in running a server (Electrum or SPV) can be monetized at the expense of the clients.

Any entity can be put under enough pressure to either comply with government mandates (US government mandates in much of the world) or shut down and lose their infrastructure investment.  All of the PRISM participants chose the latter...it's the only logical choice.  And the only legal choice for corporations.

When the actual foundation of Bitcoin requires resources which exceed what enthusiasts can muster in order to be operated realistically it will be highly susceptible to becoming yet another cog in the state surveillance machine.  It will be either allowed to operate in order to siphon intelligence from the users or effectively shut down as a usable currency solution.  I'll bet on that...in terms of how I manage my BTC stash that is.

Learn about bloom filters.
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