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1501  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Submersing a rig on: January 23, 2012, 08:07:43 PM
So you are suggesting I replace my precious Koi with these hellish creatures:

No thanks. Its so ugly I wouldnt even want to eat it Smiley.

If I were in it for the money, I even think growing Koi is the better investment. Though I would need warmer water... (or indoor winter tanks).
1502  Other / CPU/GPU Bitcoin mining hardware / Re: Does anyone else have stability issues with linuxcoin on: January 23, 2012, 07:50:54 PM
Will putty work if the windows computer I use is a laptop on wireless lan and the miners are wired?

Sure, no problem, as long as all the machines are on the same subnet (if you dont know what that is, then they are)
1503  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Submersing a rig on: January 23, 2012, 07:38:47 PM
That is a baller pond. Start the aquaculture op!

Not sure what you mean. If you think there is not enough plants in the water, keep in mind thats early spring before most of the plants and lillies surface, and right after a thorough cleanup. in the summer you can almost walk across the pond without getting your feet wet Smiley.
1504  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Submersing a rig on: January 23, 2012, 07:32:15 PM
Wouldn't an fish tank filter :
do just as well if not better than a radiator at cooling down the oil.

Definately not.  Its just a waterfall, all that matter is the surface area you produce, and that isnt much. Moreover, insummer inside the shed it already gets to 35+C without help from mining rigs, and I were to dump all the heat in there, it would get a lot hotter. And then you only have (hot) air to cool the oil, thats not nearly as efficient as cool water.
1505  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Submersing a rig on: January 23, 2012, 07:26:50 PM
Sounds good.  Also if you wanted an added layer of security you could rig a temperature switch to the power for the rigs.  If temp in pond got above say 40C it would kill power to rigs.

Above 40C? Heh. Maybe I need a picture here to help you visualize 50K liter. Here is half the pond half drained for maintenance this spring:

A few gpus arent going to cause that to overheat Smiley.

Im much more worried about leaking. Ill probably add a floater switch that shuts everything down if the oil level drops. And probably an electric valve as well.
1506  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Submersing a rig on: January 23, 2012, 07:07:06 PM
I guess one could get a ballpark figure by measuring the pond temp in summer at dawn and noon.  The rise in temp ~= thermal energy from sun.  Figure out solar insolation, and number of hours and you could turn that into wattage.  i.e. pond got x watts from the sun and the pond temp rose y.  That might give p4man at least the magnitude we are looking out.    With only a 5C rise in temp can the pond dissipate 100W, 1000W, 10,000W, etc?

Im not worried about that in the least. Temperature difference between bottom (where I pump most of the water) and top of the  pond can be 5-10C difference just from the sun. Between morning and afternoon you can add another 5+C to that when my filters are running. Fish dont mind. They will just swim where they feel most confortable, and if anything, Koi like warmer water than what I can offer them. They thrive when the water is ~30-35C, Ill never get there, except for some weeks per year at the top of the pond...

Once best avoids sudden temperature shocks, like from a hot bassin to a cool pond without some acclimatisation time, but intra day variance is not an issue. They are river carp, its not like you will not find huge temperature differences in a fast flowing shallow river.
1507  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Submersing a rig on: January 23, 2012, 06:50:37 PM
2000w will more than likely impact 10,000 gallons, though it wholly depends a lot on surface area.

I dont believe so. the pond is not that deep. Its bowl shaped, no deeper than 1m60. Half the pond (by surface) is less than waist deep.   Surface area is 60m2. Then there is the fact I have a DIY "trickle tower"/ proteine skimmer thats designed to  expose the water to air and *lots* of aeration in general (heavy duty air pump in the filters and in the pond).  When I turn on all my pumps on a cold autumn day, I can easily decrease the water temperature by several degrees in a single day, 2000W isnt going to offset that.  Im not sure 20Kw would.

Anyway, heating the pond is not the objective. Heating the water in the filters would be quite a useful by-product, particularly in spring, although Im not expecting much difference even there. Too much flow. One can do the math, the filter barrels excluding filter material are probably around 200L and I believe are turned around every 4 minutes. At 2000W that is  ~ +0.5C. Better than nothing, but not impressive.
1508  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Submersing a rig on: January 23, 2012, 06:03:47 PM
Why not just use a traditional water cooling rig w/ a heat exchanger?

Price mostly. And convenience. Equipping 6 or 10 cards with full covers for watercooling is expensive, and it could be hard to find covers for all my cards. Remember I run rat rigs thrown together with leftover parts and then I plug in whatever 58x0 card I can find cheaply. I have like no 2 identical cards, and thats only gonna get worse Smiley.

As far as what temps are GPUs.  In watercooling (and I would imagine oil cooling too) water is such a good heat conductor that everything in the loop is within 1 or 2 degrees of everything else.  So if the oil reaches equilibrium around 50C then the GPU would be 50C.

Some more googling suggested that too. Well, up to 5-7C delta. This is getting more and more exciting Smiley.

If the radiator will be submerged in water you likely will get better heat transfer with a heat exchanger.  Radiators are designed assuming they will be used to force air through fins to acheive heat transfer. 

Heat exchangers require I pump water through them. Thats probably not a good idea, considering its pond water; its gonna clog sooner or later, even if I were to pump "clean" water from the end of the filter (and Id rather heat the beginning of the cycle to help the aerobic process).  My filters are connected with 130 mm pipes, that doesnt clog so easily Smiley. Moreover, it requires 2 pumps, one for the oil, one for the water. Thats 2 points of failure.

 Then there is also... price. A decent sized heat exchanger is not that cheap. I may not need a big one from an efficiency point of view, but Id need one that doesnt clog. Instead I could buy one, or heck, should it prove necessary or useful,  several oil coolers from a car junk yard for next to nothing, or even if you buy them new, something like this:

isnt gonna break the bank, and I cant see how that would not work when submerged in relatively fast flowing and air bubbling 20-25C water. Like you said, water is a much better heat conductor than air, if it can cool the oil by blowing air over it, its gonna work a hole lot better submerged - I think.

Anyway, Ill probably setup a small scale experiment next month with a single spare card (8800GT) to see what happens. Still have to figure out where to best buy some suitable oil, hoses,  think of a filtration system and come up with a layout thats not completely unworkable. Its not gonna be pretty with all the motherboards suspended inverted above an oil bath, but if it works,  who cares Smiley
1509  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Submersing a rig on: January 23, 2012, 11:12:51 AM
Okay I did some research myself. Toxicity is not a problem with pure mineral oil. you can even drink the stuff.

As for capacity planning; Lets assume I only submerge my GPUs (thats what I plan, just place them inverted with extenders so only the gpu's "swim"), lets put it at 1000W worth of GPUs in a 100L tank.lets look at the heating of the oil. I found this:

From the above link:
Time in hours = 0.5 X Number of Liters X Temperature rise in °C / by element wattage

Solving that for temperature rise:
Temperature rise per hour = 1000W / ( 0.5 * 100L) = 20C per hour or 0.333C per minute.

Thats considerably less than I would have thought.

Lets assume a hot summer day with 35C ambient air temperature and my pond water being at 25C.

assume the submerged radiator manages to cool the oil to 10C above water temp, so to 35C.
I want the oil in mining rig to remain below 50C. Thats a 15C difference
That means I have to turn over the 100L every 5 minutes. So Id need ~1200L/hour throughput.
Actually, the amount of oil used in the rig theoretically wouldnt matter here.

Anyway, some googling found me this:

Pretty much spot on for the capacity I just calculated, although that probably means its not enough when you factor in pump head and the fact the stated throughput is probably for water, not oil.

Still, seems quite doable with all the above assumptions. Looks like all I need is a pump similar to that one, but probably 2x or so as powerful, some (car) oil radiator and some tubing. Most of the stuff seems fairly inexpensive. Oh and Id need a filter somehow, as there is no way to make this setup airtight if Im only going to submerge the GPUs.

Question that remains; with 50C oil temperature, what would my GPU temps be like? Although it is probably different, can anyone using watercooling shed some light on the relationship between water temperature and GPU temps?
1510  Other / CPU/GPU Bitcoin mining hardware / Re: Does anyone else have stability issues with linuxcoin on: January 23, 2012, 09:38:28 AM
A few things.
I just glanced over that wiki, it uses AMDOverdriveCtrl  to set clocks. You dont need that, and shouldnt use that if you use cgminer.

Second remark, dont use keyboard/screen on the miners. There is no need. Assuming you have a network connection, there is this thing called SSH. I am assuming your main PC runs windows, if so just install putty:

Use it to connect to the miners. Just enter the IP address and set connection type to SSH, and connect (save sessions for each of your machines so its easy to connect to them). You should get a shell, enter ˙our linuxcoin credentials (username="user" and password="live" by default. Note that you dont see anything while typing the password, thats normal).

Next thing you want to do is install a little utility called "screen". That allows you run cgminer over SSH, and close SSH and be able to reconnect to that same "screen" later.
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get install screen

To launch a miner now, just run

export DISPLAY=:0
screen /your/miner/app

You can close SSH now if you want, and if later you want to reconnect to that screen, start the ssh session and run

screen -r

I see you are using gcminer 2.0.7. its pretty old, you will want to download the latest version. If you need help with that, Ill talk you through it, but lets start by seeing if you manage the above.

As for the rig without lan, let me know what I asked in the other thread about the lights. To troubleshoot that one, we will need monitor and keyboard, unless youd have a spare network card that does work.

1511  Other / CPU/GPU Bitcoin mining hardware / Re: Does anyone else have stability issues with linuxcoin on: January 23, 2012, 08:54:36 AM
Have no stability issues with linuxcoin whatsoever. I just boot it of an USB stick in persistent mode and launch cgminer and it runs and runs and keeps running on both my rigs. Worst thats happened is the GPU crashing when I overclocked too far, all I have to do is restart cgminer- although I read if the first card crashes, you may need a reboot to cure it.  If I add more cards, I also do need to run aticonfig, and then reboot. Thats completely normal.

Anyway, I think you should find out and/or describe more in detail whats happening. Is it just the GPU crashing, is there a problem with the OS or stick perhaps? What do you mean its not starting, is the machine not booting or only the miner app not launching? What cards, miner etc do you use? What clocks on the cards.. You are running this in persistent mode, right?
1512  Other / CPU/GPU Bitcoin mining hardware / Re: Can't get ethernet going in linuxcoin final on: January 23, 2012, 08:46:44 AM
Do you have leds on the ethernet port? Usually green led means cable+connection is okay, yellow led to indicate activity. Do you get either? If you dont, it looks like a hardware problem. Or if your motherboard doesnt have leds at the ethernetport, check those on your switch/router. To be honest, I think its more likely an issue with router, try resetting that.
1513  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Submersing a rig on: January 23, 2012, 08:09:40 AM
Im actually reconsidering my position on this and looking into submerging my rigs for when summer comes.

Here is the thing, I have a large Koi pond (50K liter) next to the shed where I would want to put my miners this summer.  And it wouldnt hurt to warm the pond water during fall and winter, even if the effect will be minimal in the best case. Even with a perfect heat exchange, 2000W is going to do next to nothing to the overall water temperature in the pond, but raising the temperature in the filters is beneficial to the filtering process, every degree helps.

Ill have to expand the filtration system for the pond anyway and  I was considering putting a few large (1000L) settling tanks in the shed. By itself, I wouldnt have expected that to do much, if anything, unless perhaps if I created an air duct of sorts around the miners to concentrate the warm air, and blow that warm air through one of the (open) tanks; i already have a 160L/hour air pump, I could add another one for that purpose. It wouldnt be much of a settling tank anymore then, and I guess it wouldnt do too much to reduce ambient heat either. or?

I guess the more efficient thing to do is submerge my rigs in mineral oil, pump the oil through a radiator which is suspended in a settling tank or filter  tank (Im using 300 liter rain barrels for biofiltering, the filter has a pretty high volume, up to 25K liter per hour).

A few questions, not sure if anyone here can help me with

- how toxic is mineral oil? Or would vegetable oil be better here? I dont fancy the idea of a small leak killing all my fish. I remember reading that a cheap way to buy large quantities of oil for submerged cooling is buying them as... horse laxative. I cant imagine a horse laxative being excessively toxic... ?

- what kind of hoses does one need? Do you need a special kind of rubber or plastic for oil? From the shed to the filtering installation is a fair few meters

- any suggestions on oil filtering?

- does anyone have any idea of dimensioning this? I got no clue how big a pump (pressure and flow rate) or radiator I would need. If it helps, by then I plan on having ~2000W worth of mining gear. The pond water rarely gets over 25C and more typical is 20C  and the water in the filter would have no time to heat up significantly because of the high flow rate. I would *guess* keeping the oil below 35-40C would be good enough to keep the cards reasonably cool, although that is more guesswork on my part.

ANy thoughts or ideas on the matter would be appreciated.
1514  Other / Off-topic / Re: Butterfly Labs - Bitforce Single and Rig Box on: January 23, 2012, 07:39:48 AM
Everyone that has paid for these with paypal seems to be all warm and fuzzy feeling because of paypals protection. If I bought one of these with paypal I would be sweating bullets. I sold a notebook for $1900 on ebay and accepted paypal as a payment. They told me if the total amount was under $2000 and I had the shipping information that proved I mailed it I was covered. So I took the money that I won from the item and never gave it another though. 2 months later paypal send me a letter saying I owed them all that money back. Later they sent me to collections for it. I would not trust them at all. Once butterfly actually has your money in hand (which they can do without giving you anything) I would not put my faith in paypal to refund it.

So what you are really saying is that if BFL -as seller- should be "sweating bullets". And you are right, at least if BFL wanted to scam you. Or if you wanted to scam them.

As a customer there is fairly little to be afraid off though. More so since several people have canceled their order and had zero issues getting their money back from BFL. There are already a few 100 pages worth of "discussion" about this on this board, its getting a bit old.
1515  Bitcoin / Mining software (miners) / Re: ANUBIS - a CGMINER Web Frontend on: January 23, 2012, 12:32:01 AM
AFAIK, the interface on cgminer doesnt support any of that yet, like pool management or even controlling GPU/fan/clockspeed etc. Its still being worked on. Cant expect those features in anubis before they are even in cgminer.
There are lots of things that can and should be added to it, but this is brand new, and already as it is, I find it extremely useful to be able to monitor my rigs hashrate, temps etc in a single webpage that runs locally on my own machine. Dont have any of the problems you reported btw.
1516  Bitcoin / Mining software (miners) / Re: ANUBIS - a CGMINER Web Frontend on: January 23, 2012, 12:16:09 AM
The LT, you are asking for features which are already in cgminer, while dissing as unneeded features which are not (but are in BAMT).
You are aware this is being developed for.. cgminer, right ? Smiley.
1517  Bitcoin / Alternative clients / Re: BitcoinSpinner on: January 23, 2012, 12:03:43 AM
You can backup your wallet, which contains your private key, and import it in any other client. Its already possible (though tricky with the current official client). You dont rely on the server.
1518  Bitcoin / Mining support / Re: PPS vs Proportional on: January 22, 2012, 11:59:48 PM
I've tried bitminter's 12 hours run yesterday and earned 0.228347831 BTC!!! Holy shit! At average I should get 0.09 BTC for 12h with my 221 mhash/s.

 On lucky days you may get 3-4x your average. On unlucky days you will get nothing. Thats not whats important, since it evens out, more important is that on average you will gain a fair amount more because of lower fees (well, none really) and you dont pay for the poolhoppers. And just as importantly, by joining a small pool, you help keep the bitcoin network more secure.

As for unconfirmed, thats with any pool. As mentioned above, blocks only mature after 120 confirmations. Thats a bitcoin thing, nothing to do with the pool. Its possible a block will be orphaned, but extremely unlikely, and near impossible after a few confirmations. I dont think bitminter has had more than a single orphaned BTC block so far. Maybe even none, not sure.
1519  Bitcoin / Mining support / Re: PPS vs Proportional on: January 22, 2012, 08:49:37 PM
No. Deepbit is awesome. It is the biggest pool for a reason.

The only reason I see is clueless newbies thinking a big pool has to be a good pool.
Its insanely expensive, and if you use proportional payout like the OP, you are giving at least 20% of your revenue to pool hoppers.

I can see why pool hoppers love it though.
1520  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: where from here? on: January 22, 2012, 08:41:35 PM
You can use the CPU the mine litecoins, mining litecoins doesnt need opencl. You can trade litecoins for bitcoins, but litecoins arent worth very much currently, I dont think its worth frying your laptop for.
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