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1441  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Feature Creep in Bitcoin (Payment Protocol) on: September 05, 2013, 02:48:16 AM
Isn't the payment-protocol-enabled-bitcoin compatible with non-payment-protocol-enabled-bitcoin? I was never that worried about the payment protocol because (besides thinking that it was a good thing) it seems to not interfere with any of the core bitcoin functionality. You can still just send to bitcoin addresses and pretend the payment protocol doesn't exist, right?
Yup, exactly.


I suppose the concern is that it opens the door for legislators to rule that only payment-protocol payments are legal ....
1442  Economy / Economics / Re: The Switzerland of Bitcoin on: September 04, 2013, 11:15:18 PM
It feels like there never will be one individual "Bitcoin country", the propagation so far has been thin and disparate. The imbalance of having an economy (especially a small national economy) that all but forces all foreign inflows and outflows to convert into and out of BTC should act as a natural barrier to it. What I'd expect is the low-level prevalence to gently climb amongst many economies and "common business pathways", until BTC use and inter-use get to some significant minority status within these numerous nations. Then, it's make or break (before that stage happens, transaction rate scaling problems must be solved + economic crisis must be kicked further into the rough)

Right now, the Bitcoin safe haven is confined to bedrooms, basements, apartments and datacenters across the whole world. Better than a nation state IMO.

I think we should form a virtual state.

I think we might already be doing it  Grin

These are actually really important ideas. I'm not sure if you have read Stephenson's "SnowCrash" but there is a theme running through it whereby virtual nations are formed around common virtual currencies, kind of like rewards point or etc issued by multi-nationals and other groups.

So imagine if many local bitcoin groups formed their own bitcoin-friendly trading areas (e.g. Kreuzberg), gated communities, villages or similar all over the world. Then when any bitcoin user is travelling they can stay at the local bitcoin village and use his/her bitcoins there. These 'enclaves' form something of separate micro-economy in each of the countries they reside but are all connected by the common currency globally. Like a global 'virtual' state that exists inside every nation state they are allowed to ...
1443  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: (Successful) Dictionary Attack Against Private Keys on: September 04, 2013, 11:03:58 PM
Quote
It may be worth pointing out to you that a prudent person doesn't try doing this:  What happens if you find a key with 1000 BTC and can't determine the owner?  Your choice will be to rob them yourself or to leave it be and hope they move the coin before someone else robs them. If you don't want to potentially be in that situation you shouldn't be attempting to crack other people's ignorantly produced keys.

You probably have a duty to move the bitcoins somewhere safer for them before someone nefarious does and to serve as a warning to others  Smiley

It is kind of like finding a stash of cash poorly hidden under a rock in a public park ... and then you could maybe donate them to a charity of your choice? Or if you can't find the owner you could use a finders keepers ethical reasoning to disburse them as you see fit ....
1444  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: CoinJoin: Bitcoin privacy for the real world on: September 04, 2013, 12:30:31 PM
Yeah, you seem pretty lost. The technology is not going to do what you want ... sorry. There was time when ISPs and banks weren't required to keep records (I don't think you would remember it), the world was definitely a better place then. These are requirements that were brought in by the police state surveillance grid that you recognise as malignant, but not their methods ....
1445  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin-Qt / bitcoind version 0.8.4 released, fixes critical DoS vulnerability on: September 04, 2013, 04:19:49 AM
I just downloaded 2 different SHASUMS.asc within an hour from from sourceforge ... what's going on?

My build environment changed and the first -linux.tar.gz contained ._foo files (see http://superuser.com/questions/61185/why-do-i-get-files-like-foo-in-my-tarball-on-os-x ).

So I untarred and re-tarred with the magic "don't be clever, please, OSX" environment variable set and uploaded a new .tar.gz and SHASUMS.


thnx ... i guess i'll go with the foo version for now.
1446  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin-Qt / bitcoind version 0.8.4 released, fixes critical DoS vulnerability on: September 04, 2013, 04:11:11 AM
I just downloaded 2 different SHASUMS.asc within an hour from from sourceforge ... what's going on?

Code:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

03aba838418b302bf6b5f6b0803856d3ede449ad  bitcoin-0.8.4-linux.tar.gz
55e9dc295ad1264816ad65ff2e1853878984d6bd  bitcoin-0.8.4-macosx.dmg
81b3199fc23bb5534caa498b9357abb741b5624c  bitcoin-0.8.4-win32-setup.exe
8da931a960c65ce3ca9ad9bd02ab236fef960087  bitcoin-0.8.4-win32.zip
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.20 (Darwin)
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=l9+4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Code:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

a86003bca1461e8d68c36fee75230899640d3613  bitcoin-0.8.4-linux.tar.gz
55e9dc295ad1264816ad65ff2e1853878984d6bd  bitcoin-0.8.4-macosx.dmg
81b3199fc23bb5534caa498b9357abb741b5624c  bitcoin-0.8.4-win32-setup.exe
8da931a960c65ce3ca9ad9bd02ab236fef960087  bitcoin-0.8.4-win32.zip
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.20 (Darwin)
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=+eE4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Both signatures verify to gavin's key ...
1447  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: CoinJoin: Bitcoin privacy for the real world on: September 04, 2013, 01:22:01 AM
Luckybit:

Quote
The solution I offer is to make detailed record keeping easy and simple.

You're not offering any solutions at all as far as I can tell you're just blathering about philosophy of design, like too many of us here no doubt ..... at some point it comes down to "code it or it didn't happen".

Also your approach of trying to dream up and cover every possible use case is futile.  In the end, the coders get to decide what gets experimented with and the market gets to decide what gets adopted. My position is that strongly anonymous money is economically superior so the market will prefer to use it. I've seen zero evidence or research from the advocates for traceable (stasi) money that this is not the case. Ask yourself if you really want to know what that $100 bill in your wallet was used for before you owned it? Would you throw it away if you knew it had once been used to buy cocaine or pay for a hooker or a child slave? Money is money, an economic good, try not to confuse it with other technologies which it is not.
1448  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-09-03 contrariancompliance.com: No Banking, No Bitcoin on: September 03, 2013, 09:51:26 PM
juan is here pushing his compliance racket barrow incessantly now ...

... these posts are really not much better than those Ponzi ads pirate@40 was running in the "Projects" section, the racket is less transparent and definitely more sophisticated though I suppose.
1449  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: As a community, we need to be able to govern ourselves on: September 03, 2013, 12:36:17 PM
1. Love one another.

2. Bitcoin Protocol

(not necessarily in that order).
1450  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: FinCEN responds to clarification requests on: September 03, 2013, 12:33:25 PM
stick 'em through a mixer
Basically, you are suggesting we use laundering services to avoid getting in trouble with the AML authority.

The only way forward is to work with the government by educating them, turning influential individuals into Bitcoin stakeholders, and avoiding suggestions like the one above. It is perfectly clear that current FinCEN interpretations are anywhere from misguided to idiotic, but it is also perfectly clear that the bigger Bitoin grows, the less under the radar it remains. Regulation is here to stay, and we as stakeholders need to do all we can to ensure the rules are acceptable for those who generally follow rules. Even if you don't follow rules, this is still in your best interest.

+1

And if you don't thing the US has reach beyond its boards, read this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/01/business/in-treasurys-war-missiles-for-a-financial-battlefield.html?ref=books&_r=1&

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=278811.msg3069520#msg3069520

... and then move to a place where Libertarians are not scorned and Freedom is not a dirty word.
1451  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-09-02 Bitcoin’s dilemma: go mainstream, or stay radical? on: September 03, 2013, 12:03:10 PM
Interesting perspective ... a false dilemma, bad pop music analogy and maybe an attempt to smear (rebellious teenager libertarians vs mainstream 'well-raised' moneyed interests) or at least pigeon-hole, create divisions.

Bitcoin adoption has been anything but 'too slow', so some of the arguments based on that premise seem contrived ... also he has failed to recognised a core group of bitcoin holders/devs/miners who are playing for all the marbles. It is not so much a political position as taking a technological stand on the necessity for a new paradigm and a better way of doing things. Like the separation of money and state.

And I didn't see any references to the economic cost/benefits analysis of traceable versus anonymous monetary systems. Why do so many seem prepared to take on faith that traceable money is somehow a net benefit? (the road to hell is paved with good intentions).
1452  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: finally bitcoin +12,000 fast food restaurants = mainstream on: September 03, 2013, 06:10:10 AM
this is old topic. just want to add:

no one that does not have bitcoin has any incentive to buy bitcoins to pay with bitcoin. just because 1 place accepts bitcoin means nothing really.


That's wrong. They will want to buy bitcoins because it retains its purchasing power due its limited issuance ... so that when they come to buy something they really want, like food, they can afford the same amount (or more) food than when they got the bitcoins.

But if you can't think more than 2 steps ahead in regards to financial decisions then since you aren't going to be likely to have more than 2 btc to rub together .... well, it does meanz nothing really.
1453  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: Would you invest in a bitcoin startup who places ATM BTC machines in US cities? on: September 03, 2013, 06:02:36 AM
Quote
You're selling Bitcoins.  MSB regulations apply.

This is wrong. For most people who are selling bitcons, MSB regulations do NOT apply. However, if you are selling AND buying bitcoins for fiat (e.g. exchanging) and doing it as a business they probably will, depending on State, blah, blah, extensive legal morass, etc.
1454  Other / Politics & Society / Re: ‘Treasury’s War,’ Missiles for a Financial Battlefield on: September 03, 2013, 01:30:38 AM
So much dictatorship

So much delusion and spin more like ... most of these guys would run a mile or freeze and crap their pants if they were involved in a live fire exercise ... here they are talking about missiles and battlefields.

Edit: also these grand masters of delusion are ignoring the old maxim "when goods no longer cross borders, troops do" ... financial repression will inevitably lead to violence, it is not as benign and consequence-free as Zarate seems to be dreaming about.
1455  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-08-30 Forbes - 10 Reasons Bitcoin Is The MySpace Of Money And What Might Sa on: September 02, 2013, 11:36:43 AM
So on that logic, hyperinflation must be a massive net benefit for the economy?
You'll have to quote where you're getting that idea. Hyperinflation is no good since it would erode confidence in the USG's ability to keep things under control. Treasury bonds are still considered by too many as guaranteed safe. If confidence in t bonds drops, this awesome cycle can't continue. It's a delicate balancing act which makes everything work as intended.

This is neither the time or the place to get into this but your assertion that inflation is somehow "good" for the economy is entirely unsupported, as much as you try to put the onus back onto someone who says otherwise to prove the negative ...

... i.e. if inflation is a net benefit to the economy, then on a simple linear trend hyperinflation would be awesome (clearly it isn't) so you must then be arguing that the inflation=good functionality is not simply linear but some other functionality that has local maxima and minima with an optimal "goldilocks" value for inflation that is necessary for the economic goodness of inflation to reveal itself ...

... now the onus is on you to prove/show that "inflation goodness" function is not linear and indeed has a local optima that provides just the right amount inflation to produce net benefit to the economy ... go for it, (suggest over in the "Economy" section).

Inflation is wiping out the middle classes, as it always does.
1456  Economy / Economics / Re: Miner break even price points. Do you think this will effect the market? on: September 02, 2013, 01:29:52 AM
The cost of mining does not determine the price of the coins at any time, they are probably not correlated at all ... but it can act as a floor (elastic lower bound) to the price during down swings. This is an important dynamic to keep in mind, so doing the kind of calcs as in the OP are useful (and worthwhile), although doing them properly is becoming ever more complex with hardware evolution (ASICs), decreasing supply/total btc ratio amongst other factors.
1457  Economy / Economics / Re: My bank account's got robbed by European Commission. Over 700k is lost. on: September 01, 2013, 11:40:35 PM
The problem is, local law dictates me to pay higher amounts using bank transfer while doing business. It is also an offense to decline regime's currency. I think this is similar in many other countries so you could not even legally use cash for greater transactions.

... and one day people wake up wondering how they ended up in a state of financial facism and slavery
1458  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-08-30 Forbes - 10 Reasons Bitcoin Is The MySpace Of Money And What Might Sa on: September 01, 2013, 11:34:40 PM
So on that logic, hyperinflation must be a massive net benefit for the economy?
1459  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I am pretty confident we are the new wealthy elite, gentlemen. on: September 01, 2013, 08:38:03 AM
Think about it: With sound money, it will not be necessary to panic buy houses bigger than you need, people can save to their pension in money, which means that the demand for sound money is bigger than demand for inflating fiat money.

... and the crypto-penny dropped. Where have all these asset bubbles come from? The monetisation of all other asset classes as the "money" itself is destroyed by the monopolist banksters ... there is much wealth and value hiding in stocks, property, bonds, etc that has no right to be there but nowhere else to run ... until now that is.
1460  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-08-30 Forbes - 10 Reasons Bitcoin Is The MySpace Of Money And What Might Sa on: September 01, 2013, 08:26:01 AM
Put people in imaginary boxes, exaggerate and attack things that aren't there. It's a classic approach.

From my point of view, the author's comments reveal the most:

"The fact that dollars lose value makes you spend or invest them. That is what drives economic activity"

I think a lot of Bitcoin enthusiasts got ahead of this old way of thinking. If depreciating dollars would drive activity, our economy would be booming for the last 30 years non-stop.

Good luck holding on to your dollars (and shaky ideas), Sir!
(Not going to read any article with "MySpace of money" in the title, but...) If the USD stopped inflating, the US would be completely fucked. Can you even imagine the implications of houses without that strong upward pressure on nominal value, and loans actually costing money? The housing market would tank from all the new underwater housing loans, setting off an economic shitstorm. The global economy would falter and possible enter a global depression for a decade or more. USG default would be unavoidable if the USD quickly moved from being inflationary to deflationary. We'd lose all that effective revenue from devaluing our national debt, so it'd probably be necessary to cut off the vast majority of welfare, and while it might be nice that the price of bread isn't increasing a few % each year, they won't be buying any bread with no job, decreasing equity in their house, and no welfare.

The USD isn't popular just because it's legal tender. Huge USD loans are practically free, often value-generating for consumers and businesses. A BTC-denom mortgage might sound cool, but it'd be a flat-out stupid choice by the lendee, and that's why I doubt BTC will ever successfully kick a fiat currency out of any country without an ideological uprising. Parents Against Inflationary Numismatics?

ETA: liberatarians love to talk about inflation and the national debt separately, but tend not to connect the two. Our national debt is right around $17t. In FY2012, we paid ~$360b on that. If we achieve 5% annual inflation, that $17t debt devalues by $850b. The USG would effectively generate $490b by having issued a shit-load of debt while inflating the currency and still maintaining confidence in that currency and the USG. The USG debt GENERATES REVENUE, and we make other countries pay for it. That's the most awesome Jew-fu out there.

Your whole analysis is flawed since it is based on the assumption that inflation appears to be a net benefit to the economy.

It is not, it is a net cost. (Not the least of which because it increases wealth and income disparities.) You cannot print your way to prosperity .... dyodd.
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