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241  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BITCOINS: from A-Z.... on: June 09, 2011, 10:51:32 PM
I'm very interested as well. We need more in the vein of that "weusecoins" video that everyone uses. I'm currently working on selling bitcoin miners, and hope to sell these to markets other than those just on this forum, but in order to do so I need to come up with some convincing materials about bitcoin itself. It'll be an interesting task, I'm sure.

I made another thread about doing just that.  I'm on a phone, otherwise Id link it, but check my post history and weigh in there.
242  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoins: We Have to Go Deeper on: June 09, 2011, 06:43:27 AM
I think that denying misconceptions actually winds up reinforcing misconceptions.

I agree.

The best way to debunk misconceptions is not to talk about the misconceptions at all, but to present the positive facts that contradict them.


This is more what I was going for.  Explain where the 21 limit comes from, why it was chosen, and what positive effects this has.  Explain and demonstrate the rich and vibrant selection of products that is cropping up around bitcoins, etc.
243  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Bitcoins: We Have to Go Deeper on: June 09, 2011, 06:26:04 AM
So, with the influx of new people, it occurred to me that a new video (ala weusebitcoins.org) would be very helpful to new members and image as a community, explaining many of the common misconceptions in a visual and digestible format.  I've begun to think about a narration for said video, and my roommate has expressed interest in helping out (he's a full time graphics designer).  I figured I'd help motivate him to spend his free time on the project by gauging community interest in the project.  So the question is: If released on a purely donation basis for the good of the community, would you donate?  If so, how much?

Likewise, what topics would the community like to see addressed in this video?  Below is the things I've managed to brainstorm (by no means will everything here be included, just the things that come to mind):

  • The 21 million cap: How, Why, implications, and myths
  • A more in depth look at the way mining works, and why the blockchain makes the transactions secure
  • Legality issues ("Legal Tender", etc.)
  • Addresses, and common procedures for how to treat your wallet (past mistakes that have cost huge fortunes to be lost)
  • Uses of bitcoins, and why it's not "A vehicle for illegal drugs"

Let me know what you think, and maybe I'll be able to kick my roommate into gear in helping me get this developed at a professional quality.
244  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: So my Bitcoin is a currency? With what do you back the currency bitcoin.org ? on: June 09, 2011, 05:15:36 AM
china currently makes prisoners mine for gold in world of warcraft video game

[citation needed]
245  Other / Obsolete (selling) / Re: Sapphire Radeon HD 5830 (new) on: June 09, 2011, 01:55:02 AM
If the prices are fair, I'd be interested in this.
246  Other / Meta / Re: Require a registration fee for the Bitcoin Forum? on: June 09, 2011, 01:42:10 AM
Dont forget, newcomers may have no bitcoins yet and would be unable to post if they needed help.

"Newbie" subforum then?  Unrestricted posting, and allows other members to "vouch" for them and pay their membership fees?
247  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Podcast on: June 09, 2011, 01:14:37 AM
Hot chicks?  IN MY BITCOIN?  BLASPHEMOUS!
248  Other / Meta / Re: Require a registration fee for the Bitcoin Forum? on: June 09, 2011, 01:11:54 AM
Might be interesting to see a Small btc registration fee (or subscription fee?), combined with a small return when you post something that the community sees as worthwhile, tweaked so that the "average" user makes his money back, and a strongly contributing user can actually make money off well thought out, constructive posts.
249  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: So my Bitcoin is a currency? With what do you back the currency bitcoin.org ? on: June 09, 2011, 01:00:25 AM
Wouldn't it be illegal in most parts of the world to issue currency backed by an empty promise?

Noone is making any promises.  Noone is "issuing" currency.  It simply exists as a form of exchange, which satisfies the bill for currency.

cur·ren·cy/ˈkərənsē/Noun
1. A system of money in general use in a particular country.
2. The fact or quality of being generally accepted or in use.
250  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Reminder - *no one* knows what is going to happen with Bitcoins. on: June 09, 2011, 12:44:48 AM
3 days?  I can't see past 3 minutes.  And even that runs me out of Mana pretty quickly.  You must be a pretty high level...
251  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Did that time traveller from the future predicted Bitcoins? on: June 08, 2011, 11:46:51 PM
Never said I beleived Titor's story, Scientician, just thought it was an interesting and funny coincidence. Also I did post a while back about burning account keys onto credit card tracks, though a lot of people seemed to ignore me...

Wait, now I know how to get peoples' attention when I have a good idea!

Gentlemen, I am from the future.  Cool

It all makes sense, considering your profile picture...  YOU ARE JOHN TITOR!
252  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Did that time traveller from the future predicted Bitcoins? on: June 08, 2011, 11:41:43 PM
December 10, 2000 11:32

What type of money do you use in 2036?
(56) Its not very different than it is now. Yes, we have money and credit cards. However, like everything else, the monetary system is decentralized.

(57) Banking is based mostly around the community structure. There are no multinational banking or computerized economic systems. There are also no income taxes.
253  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Where I've been for the past week on: June 08, 2011, 11:16:04 PM
Where are you located?  My mom just offered to make the wedding cake in bitcoins, if you're somewhere she can transport it to easily.  She's been doing cake decorating since 2008, and Pasty in general for 12 years.  She graduated from the prestigious Le Cordon Bleu (before they sold out to the US Wink We lived in London at the time).  If you're interested, she can send a portfolio, and if you can provide travel accommodations she's more than willing to travel to be a part of this.  She's been increasingly excited about the bitcoin phenomenon since I started with it last year, and wants to do anything she can to help the bitcoin economy grow (and secure some for herself).  I mentioned this in a conversation with her in the context of "look how the bitcoin economy is growing", and she leapt on the idea to do the wedding cake.
254  Other / Obsolete (selling) / Re: Ps3 Slim 120GB ///// PowerColor 6870 ////// 32gb Wifi Xoom on: June 07, 2011, 04:11:57 AM
Trade had some confusion, some fishiness with the tracking number, but got the product when he said I would.  The video card worked great, but the motherboard was the wrong product, kind of pissed me off at first.  He was very accomodating and admitted to his mistake.  Then the clearcoin exchange went down with a bit of miscommunication, but in the end we ended up settling on an exchange that worked for both of us.  I'd trade again for smaller sums to build up trust first.  If you're super paranoid, don't trade, because the complications will give you a heart attack, but you'll most likely get your product in the end.
255  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How Many Bitcoins do you own? on: June 07, 2011, 04:09:17 AM
I just spent 50.
256  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How is infinite divisibility different from infiniate printablitiy? on: June 06, 2011, 09:42:31 PM
I know that bitcoins are divisible by 8 decimal places or so, but I've also heard that they can be expanded if need be.  

How is this different than inflating a currency.

I'm just can't seem to wrap my mind around this.

Sorry I'm kinda new, and am 100% behind the idea of this, just trying to understand a bit better.

Dividing a bitcoin does not inflate it's value artificially.  If the value of .5 btc goes up to what 1btc used to be, then it's because of natural market forces.

Exchanging a dollar for 4 quarters doesn't inflate the money supply, but arbitrarily minting new dollar bills does.
257  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Fragmentation problem? on: June 06, 2011, 09:36:03 PM
Is fragmentation of bitcoins a problem and a possible attack on the system?
In http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9685.0 there is a question that did not get answered, and it is not in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses.

The basic idea is that money can get fragmented and if you only have pennies to pay with, transaction costs go up.
If with bitcoins you can spend 10^-8 of a bitcoin, then the pennies might come to have very low value.
An attack might then be performed like this:
Buy 1.01 bc. Spend 1 bc on socks, but use the 0.01 bc to fragment the money sent into anything up to a million equal parts, say only enough to make it more expensive to use.
Whenever that 1 bc is spent, it is more expensive than an unfragmented bc would be.
This might also happen naturally over time when transactions with many decimals are made.

Whether or not this is a problem, perhaps it belongs in the Weaknesses article?


Coins can ALSO be merged in a transaction.  A transaction can take many inputs (100x 0.01 transactions, etc.) and have a single output (1 btc).
258  Economy / Economics / Re: The 2040 problem on: June 06, 2011, 03:50:49 PM
Swift,

Here's another aspect:

Lets imagine that there are no transaction fees in 2040.   At that time, there should be strong Bitcoin banks and other financial institutions.  These institution will have every reason to run miner to keep the integrity of their own transactions and to make sure that deposits are safe from attack.  If I'm not mistaken, miners can pick and choose which transactions to include in a block.  I believe Mt Gox runs miners to speed verification of transaction.  Mining helps bitcoin financial institutions even without transaction fees or rewards from new blocks; The incentive already exists. 


Yes!  Finally someone who gets it!  I've been trying to highlight this for months.  Many of the intelligent forum members don't equate mining to a strong bank vault or other security measures.

I pointed this out in another thread (or maybe this one, can't remember), and it doesn't just apply to bankers.  It also applies to financial investment firms, because they can choose to accept their OWN transactions into the block without a fee, thus significantly reducing their cost overhead for investing in stocks and other such things that I don't have a head for. Wink
259  Economy / Economics / Re: The 2040 problem on: June 06, 2011, 04:41:33 AM
This issue hadn't been addressed, please stop saying that.  It's a lie.

If it had been addressed someone would have Provided a sufficient explanation in this thread.  I have yet to see one.

Thus to me this issue is problematic for bit coin.

People assume wrongfully that inflation is bad.   To respect to security, inflation is not only beneficial but necessary.  Otherwise a declining hash will compromise the security of the network.

1. This problem wouldn't be a '2040' problem, it would be a problem every time mining rewards were lowered every 4ish years. Not to mention, your title shows a lack of research, as BTC will still be created way after 2040.

2. This is an issue with marginal security of the network, and a very small marginal change at that. If Bitcoin makes it to the last BTC creation date, the change in marginal security of the network due to removal of this reward will be VERY small. It would be insane to think it would cause a detrimental effect to the network.

3. There is a balance that must be created between features that incentivize users and incentivize miners. What's the 'sweet spot' reward amount that most most maximally incentivies miners while also encourages people to adopt the currency? Under your premises, 60 BTC per block would also make the network more secure, so where do you propose we fix the reward at and why? Network security is not the end-all-be-all of bitcoin. Most people that use BTC right now would not use a currency that inflated in perpetuity, this is a design feature and would incompatible with your proposal.



That's obvious.  Hash will be tested at the first reward point in a year or so.  If hash falls significantly, we can say the bitcoin experiment will end in failure.  If hash continues to rise, then it's possible that mining can continue.

The issue with your presentation, and everyone else that has explained this, is that "transaction fees will support mining."  

1) There's no proof of this.
2) It really does not matter.

I'll explain why it doesn't matter, and it should be obvious by now - unless you have not read anything or don't think.  It doesn't matter because even if transaction fees support hash (which there is no proof), you still deduct a revenue source (block reward) from miners.  Which means, miners make less money than they would if there was block reward.  It's very simple.  Shouldn't be hard to explain.

Since miners make less money than they would with transactions fees and block reward, we assume that hash will decrease once block reward decreases.

(Mining profit = block reward + fees)
 
(Mining profit = (block reward)/2 + fees) in 1 year

(Mining profit = (block reward)/4 + fees) in 5 years

(Mining profit = (block reward)/8 + fees) in 9 years

It should be obvious that if you remove a source of mining income, miners will profit less.  This will decrease hash, hash secures the block chain, and it will devalue bitcoins.

INFLATION IS NOT THE ENEMY

I don't know why people believe INFLATION(BITCOIN) = INFLATION(FIAT).  It's NOT TRUE.  Inflating bitcoins costs computational power, A LOT of it.  Inflating paper currency costs almost nothing.  

Inflating bitcoins also secures the NETWORK.  Because it gives miners profit.  When mines profit, hash increases.  When hash increases bitcoins become more valuable because they're more secure and less prone to attack.

So please, enough with the "fees will support the network."  There's no proof of it, and even if there is, it's irrelevant because inflation + fees are more beneficial.

You are claiming that the hashing rate has to increase forever.  The bitcoin economy is doomed anyway, under that logic, since there is a finite limit to the processing power of the network, and one day that will be reached.  Stagnation does not equate to a decrease in security.

Similarly, a decease in payout doesn't mean that all miners will stop mining.  Just as WE have no proof that what you say is true, YOU have no proof that miners will quit because of a minor drop in profitability.  In fact, we have more evidence than you do, since the profitability of mining has been decreasing for some time now (difficulty rate increase), and us miners are still here.  The fees, however, ARE there, and ARE providing a profit for miners, and ARE increasing over time, and WILL be there based on the current rules.  And, if bitcoin has enough miners that it can't be compromised, it stands to reckon that it has enough USERS to produce a high volume of transactions, such that the tiny amount of fee with each will accumulate to large payouts.  We've provided sample math for you, and you've chosen to ignore it.
260  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Mining for fee only is unsustainable. on: June 05, 2011, 10:42:26 PM
This community will be doomed if it doesn't welcome newcomers. How else can a community grow?
Newcomers don't know all and ask questions, what's the problem?

There's been discussion on maintaining the minting of new Bitcoins before, there will be in the future.

As I understand it if the largest mining pools decided together to continue to mint 50 new BTC beyond 2012, there isn't much the non-mining bitcoin community can do to stop them. Correct me if I am wrong.

(Not that I want that to happen btw)

We welcome noobs whole heartedly.  How would we expect bitcoin to become a global economy if we didn't want as many new people as we could get?

The issue WE as a community are having, however, is twofold:

1) The lack of research that goes into a post like this.  MANY MANY of these posts are about issues that have been discussed ad nauseam before.
2) The posts are worded from a condescending stance, in which the original poster KNOWS the flaw is there, and the entire community of people who have been here for two years is too stupid to have seen it.  It's also accompanied by ad hominem attacks on the people ("only an idiot couldn't see this", etc.)

Compounding both of these issues is a general pattern of poor communication skills, both in portraying their opinion (this thread, for example) and in comprehending the rebuttles that the community has offered.  THIS is the kind of new community member that we find frustrating, because some of us have been dealing with it for 2 years now.

For comparison, see how the original post of this thread could have been worded:

Quote
I just found out about bitcoin, and I realize this has probably already been brought up before, but as I understand it competition between miners for transaction fees could create an issue for sustainability.  Miners with lower profit margins could allow lower-fee transactions, and the majority of people would be willing to accept this in return for a slightly longer confirmation time.  Can someone point me to some previous discussion on this, or maybe explain how the system deals with this?  If this is really the case, It seems to me that a viable solution would be to continue to incentivize miners with bitcoin generation.  What potential pitfalls would this have?

The community would have reacted MUCH better to this kind of post, pointing out that there's no inherent competition between miners for transactions:  A transaction can be worked on by multiple miners at once, and as a miner, lowering your transaction fee doesn't bring you any benefit:  It doesn't "bring you more customers" than other miners, and it doesn't make the block easier to solve.  Instead, we saw someone with very little understanding of the bitcoin system approaching us with an arrogant, flippant attitude (either intentionally or unintentionally).  The same kind of reaction happens in mathematics, a well known one being the problem of trisecting the angle, the millenium problems, or perpetual motion.  Many people who are introduced to the problem automatically assume they have a clever way of circumventing it, not realizing that for thousands of years people who are very likely much smarter than them have worked tirelessly on these problems, and it'll take a bit more effort on their part to make any true progress (if any progress at all is possible).
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