You asked about selling 1 BTC brass bitcoin in Jan 21.  It is now 22 March 2021.  The Bitcoin price recently went over $60k, so we afe talikg alot of money here.

Firstly let me talk about value.   A few days ago, I asked one of the world’s leading auction houses.   They offered a free valuation service.   They declined to value it, saying they don’t auction money items like bitcoin due to the traditional buyer and seller premiums.

Historically a number of sales are “purported” to have taken place through this forum and others, and on eBay, but you should not use those as a guide since:

1) The bitcoin price has tripled in the last 3 months.
2) The rarity of un-peeled Casascius has increased, as many were peeled as the price rose.
3) Any sales may have been to shills, or even completely fake.
4) Both buyer and seller had a “trust” issue.  Most people would not buy or sell online, meaning prices do not reflect a true market value.

Based on sales which purportedly happened, i think an online sale in this or similar forums might fetch between 1.3 BTC and 3 BTC.  I think it would go for much much more if auctioned in a way which was more trust-worthy for the buyers.  Some eBay listings a couple of years ago were asking in excess of $200k.  That would have been the equivalent of 10 to 20 BTC, but there is no proof that those sales really happened.  I am not sure about whether eBay even accepts fully loaded listings.

I would like to see a major auction house sale happen, but see the second paragraph above.

Given the trust issue, I would try to sell via a specialised coin auction house who will give reassurance to buyers.  Worst case scenario is that you end up with less than 1 BTC due to the auction house fees, but there is an extremely good chance that you will get much more.  The downside risk is worth the upside potential in my view.  You might well see a price above $1 million.

Another way to avoid trust issues is to sell in person face to face, by advertising locally.   The trouble with that is the price.  The places you would advertise typically have second-hand bargain items at low prices.  What are the chances of a multi-millionaire bitcoin enthousiast spotting your ad?

The safest way to get value is to peel it and redeem the BTC, but that seems a shame, given the rarity. 

Several years ago I asked in these forums about how I could buy several hundred thousand dollars worth of bitcoin.   It became obvious, back then, that it would be a nearly impossible task.   I would have faced sanctions by my bank, I would have moved the price and I would have had to deal with a mysterious Japanese company called MtGox.

In the end, I sadly took no action.

Everything has changed.  It is now 5X easier to buy bitcoin.   I am now a regular buyer of bitcoins.  I don’t care that the price is 10X or 100X what I could have had them for.

So why am I buying now?

Exclusivity
Firstly, there will never be more than 21 million bitcoins.   There are more millionaires than that.   I like to own something that not every millionaire will be able to own.  It’s exclusivity.   I own something that has a limited supply, so not everyone can own one, but I’ve got lots of them.

I don’t need to ask permission to spend them
Secondly, I like the fact that bitcoin is “permission-less”.   I won’t ever have to ask permission to spend or use my bitcoins - not that I plan to use them. Everything else I own (in the form of financial assets) is in the hands of a bank or a custodian.  I can’t spend my money without permission from my bank or credit card company.  

Bitcoin can’t be “frozen”
If a business deal goes wrong, if someone sues me, if a future wife divorces me and says “I get everything”, if I am friends with a sanctioned political leader - because you survive by being on the side of those in power, - if, if, if, if....... so many things might go wrong.  I could wake up one morning, and find my bank accounts frozen, and my credit cards don’t work.   They can’t ever freeze my bitcoin.   The code is in my head.

What’s wrong with cash or gold bars?
The most obvious disadvantage with cash is that it is being de-valued all the time. It’s great to own for a year or two, but in the long run it’s going towards zero.   Secondly, they change the colour and design of the bank notes every few years.  You have a limited time to change old for new.  Then, if you are changing more than a small amount, you have to start answering questions and providing documents.   Lastly, you can’t cross the border with more than 10’000 dollars or euros in cash without filling in forms, which could lead to another line of questioning.

As for gold, it also is difficult to transport without customs declarations.  Gold bars or coins are not easily divisible into smaller sizes.

So I checked the exchanges you mentioned.  Nothing is shown on Yobit - no trades.

 Hitbtc only trades it againt ethereum.  Not dollars.  24 hour volume is less than $2000 worth and the bid price is only 0.00004 for 130’000 DRT.  That’s about $52 worth.  There’s only 4 bids.   On the other hand, there are 100s of sellers trying to sell 23 million DRT tokens at prices of 0.00005 and higher.  My comment that you can’t sell them stands.  Just think, they raised more than 40 million euros, but the most you could get for it would be $52.  Nobody will buy your tokens, unless you have less than $52 worth.  The next seller will absorb the buyers and then there will be no more market.  Sorry, but you lost all your money.  You were told not invest, but refused to listen to reason and logic.  If you don’t believe me, go and buy some more tokens on Hitbc!  Show Your faith by putting your money where your mouth is.

There is no legitimate bank or hedge fund which promises high returns without risk and volatility.

 Absolutely right. Bitcoin is down 25% in the last day yet they pay almost nothing. I could have bought these bitcoin on the cheap and flipped them.   If the so-called trading bot is so clever why can’t it do that?

 If anyone was stupid enough to lend me the coins, I would be more than happy to pay 1% a day in USD (old currency).  (that means US dollars, old money).  Then I would pretend to buy every dip on Bitcoin and make 10 to 30% upside within days.  But why would I need to borrow if I could really do that?

Please don’t send me any of the bitcoin. I don’t need your money. Anyone who’s got a working trading srategy doesn’t need to borrow other people‘s bitcoin.   Only a scammer would “borrow” if the were really able to make 1% a day.

Guys please stop dreaming.  The use case for DRT tokens is extremely weak.  Nobody is going to want them. 

You were all warned about the multiple failings of the project before launch - things like they sell you the tokens and put it through their profit and loss account, as sale of stock, and in return they say the give you nothing, no profits, no dividend, no votes, no influence - nothing.   

There were lots of other failings which I won’t repeat as you read them before the launch.

To buy the tokens you had to acknowledge that this is not an investment, and that there was no price appreciation promise and that you would never get anything back.  They didn’t promise you any market for the token.

It was quite clear in the white paper that you contributed the money freely to the company in return for nothing except the DRT token, which was a kind of acknowledgement “thankyou for your contribution”.  It has no more value than the brass war medals you see for sale in every market.

Now you are complaining that its price is below what you paid.  That means you think it is some kind of investment?  They told you that token has no relation to the success of domraider as a company.  You gave away your money, acknowldged in writing that you would get nothing back, that this was no investment, no currency, no cryptocurrency, no security, and now you expect something?

What were you expecting when you bought these tokens?  Did you think “oh they just say this is worthless for legal reasons, but in reality, they’ll make me rich, I trust them”

I don’t suppose you can realistically sell your tokens.  Probably not.  Who would want to buy them?  You have to put it down to one of life’s experiences that you can one day tell your grand children.

Before you all flame me, can I ask you to pick any of the so called “advisors” or “experts” from the whitepaper, and look at their linked-in or facebook page.   Do they even mention Domraider?  In that alone you have your answer as to what you “bought”.  Except you didn’t “buy” anything.  You effectively made a gift to the pockets of a small group of directors.  Good for them, bad for you.

I am sorry for all those of you who can’t sell your coins.  What did you think you were buying?  You were told in worlds of one syllable that it is not an investment. 

You decided to give your money away and were promised nothing in exchange. 

Why are you so unhappy that you got what you were promised?  Nobody from the company even remotely suggested that there could be a profit to be made.

If anyone was told this was an investment, or that you might be able to sell at a profit, then please point to the link.  There simply isn’t one.

Hi bambarmia,

That’s a great post!  I have found this world to be full of people who won’t listen to wisdom and reason.  Let’s remember, it’s not so long ago witches were being burned at the stake for turning the milk sour.

Galileo was imprisoned for life for proving the Copernicus theory that the earth rotated around the sun.  His judges, the inquisition, -supposedly wise and educated judges -  were simply not prepared to listed to another opinion than their own.

 At least these days we can publish what we think anonymously on the net, and the worst that can happen is getting flamed or sworn at by some equally anonymous trolls.

Most people have to learn the hard way.  It’s the way of life.  Mummy says to child, “don’t put your finger in the candle flame.  It will hurt you.”   Child puts finger in flame, and bursts into tears.  Child learns lesson not to put finger in flame, but does not learn the lesson to listen to mummy.  So the world will continue.

Eventually when we are old and wise we start to listen and learn from others, and thus reap the benefits of avoiding life’s pitfalls.  You and I will never change the mind of those who have chosen to believe in the dream.  Maybe that’s for the best because we will be relatively better off compared to them.  They can be our slaves.

Anyway, many thanks for doing the maths on this to prove that it will come to an end, sooner or later.

For me it ends when the world runs out of fools with any money.   I guess the more fools they ensnare, the less there are still to catch.  Given the size already achieved, they must have got all the easy catches.

The sad part is they are doing this with door to door salesmen in places like Indonesia and Vietnam.  Many poor housewives won’t have the education to assess the risks.  I feel sorry for them.   The salesmen, who, for the most part, don’t know it’s a scam, will be blamed and put on trial.  The patsies who gave out their referral codes on youtube and social media will be charged with illegally promoting a ponzi-scheme and of having no securities licence.    

The con-men at the top will get away scot-free, because they are impossible to identify.

Today’s announcement by the CME that it will start trading cash settled bitcoin will push the price substantially higher for two reasons:

Acceptance

Technical

The first point is obvious.  Having bitcoin trade alongside mainstream investments like eurodollar, S&P, gold, etc will bring millions of new investors to bitcoin.

The technical point is that professionals will short the future, as the forward months will have higher prices than spot.   To cover themselves they need to own the spot = more buyers.

The second technical point will happen, but down the line could lead to a problem.

These futures are cash settled.  There is no actual delivery of bitcoin.   If volume on the futures becomes larger than the bitcoin exchanges, market manipulation will be a risk.   Example: I buy 10000 January 2018 bitcoin futures.   Minutes before expiry, I see that the market depth on one of the reference  exchanges is thin.   I hit the exchange with “buy at market” orders for 3000 bitcoin.   The price shoots up from $10’000 to $1 million.  Now the sellers of the future will need to pay me out in CASH, based on the photograph of that price.

Of course the market-makers will screw me over if I do that.  They will say it’s a repetition of what the Hunt brothers did.  They were the “Silver Bulls” who bought up all the physical supply of silver while being long the futures.  The price of silver crashed after new rules were brought in to stop them rolling all their contracts.  They became forced sellers.

You should specify that this is not loaded and that the hologram has been peeled off.  Advertisement is weak and incomplete.

Hello Marina,

You should not invest in the DomRaider ICO unless you have read the white-paper and understand everything.  Did you do that?  I know that it’s 100+ pages long.... Read, Understand, Test everthing for plausibility.

I read it in full.  Here’s a short summary of the 100+ pages.  “You give us the money, we keep it, you get nothing of value”.

Most ICO’s these days say the same thing.  Caveat Emptor.

The only hope you have is that there will be some kind of secondary market in these tokens, and with a bit of luck, someone who has not read the white-paper will get excited enough to bid the price up.  This has often happened with other ICOs, but there is no certainty it will.  It’s a bit like playing in the Casino and expecting your number to come up.

In case you have any money left over after this, I know of a fat greyhound that could be worth a punt.

Scam scam scam

Fools and their money are easily parted.  As soon as one scam stops another hot one catches those who were born yesterday.  No point in making laws.  I don't want some nanny state telling me I can't smoke, drink, or invest my money in something hot.  If I want to put my money on the horse with three legs, then let me.

Thank you so much for this warning.  It helps those who can read to make a more rational decision.  As for those who can't read, they'd better stick to three legged horses and fat greyhounds.

These were great links to the SEC warnings about how the quoted share price of a company may be hyped including by touting an ICO.

What the SEC did not cover is the risk relating to contributing to an ICO itself.   I think the reason for not covering ICOs themselves is that the SEC is sitting on the fence.  They don't want imply that some ICOs are legit, nor do they want to cut off the range of financing available to a genuine company doing a genuine ICO.

They want to put rules in place first.

As for the promoters of fraudulent schemes and HYIPs, they are at the greatest risk of prosecution if they were receiving compensation either from investors or from the company itself.  This would include all referral programs.

For my personal conscience, I would not want to accept money (referral program), for touting an investment where investors lose money.  It's like pushing crack cocaine on new users, so that I can make the addicts into my customers.

I am the opening poster (OP）from two years ago and would like thank everyone for the brilliant advice on how to address my worries.  Below are some replies to your comments.   Firstly, in 2017, I see bitcoin as way safer than in 2015.   There are far more ways to buy, hold, or trade bitcoins than 2015.  It is seen as way more acceptable in 2017 to own bitcoins than 2015.

1) Front-running. It used to be rife on the mainstream stock exchanges until they made it illegal. 

Front-running is where you know what your client will do next and you trade before him, knowing that his later trade will change the price in your favour.

The exchanges know how much cash their clients hold.  They also have power over how long it takes before they credit you with the dollars you just sent to the exchange.  They say it takes one to eight days.  It should be the same value day.  They can credit all clients on a Sunday night, knowing the wave of buying will start on Monday morning.

Once your coins are on the way to the exchange or already arrived its not worth the time or trouble to move them to another exchange.

2) For exactly the same reason as above, most exchanges don't take Tether.  If they did, you could instantly arbitrage between exchanges, thus undermining their profits from front-running.

Finally i started buying my first Bitcoins. It took more than a year of thinking about it.   

I bought just a few hundred dollars worth of Bitcoins from late June 2017 to mid July.  Frictional costs were huge, maybe 7%. 

Then I discovered some quoted Bitcoin trackers, where I could invest decent amounts via regulated exchanges or reputable counterparties.   I'm happy I did that as I was still not geared up for large transactions with the exchanges.   I got in just before the big leap from $2500 to $4000.

Now I am signed up with two exchanges who have done their DD on me and will accept larger deposits.  I am depositing a few thousand USD a day, converting to Bitcoin and bringing it back to a paper wallet.  I just paid an all-time record price of $4'400.

I don't want to have too much exposure to the exchanges.  It's hard to tell where they are really located, I can't find any annual reports and there are no photos of the board of directors.  I get my money in, exchange it, and bring it back quickly to a paper wallet.

As this Casascius 1BTC coin is fully loaded, does this mean it holds1 Bitcoin BTC, PLUS 1 Bitcoin Cash BCC?

What is the precise methodology to check that the balances are there in full?

Sad that so few people realised the opening poster was cracking a joke.  Fiat is an Italian car brand. 
"I want to exchange Bitcoin for a car without converting to Fiat"

Notice the capital "F"

I would counter argue that whilst most people have little to gain from anonymity, the world is full of people with plenty of LEGAL motives to seek anonymity.  In some dangerous countries having any form of liquid wealth can make you a target for thieves, robbers kidnappers, extortionists, police and so on.  Secondly, around the world there is family pressure to keep the wealth under the control of a parent, husband brother, or patriarch.  A woman can not own a bank account in some cultures. 

Many married persons would like to hide some of their money from their spouse.   Maybe it's just for small treats and a little innocent shopping, maybe it's insurance against future divorce, maybe it's to maintain a secret amourous relationship, or maybe to pay for a love child from a previous relationship.

Some people with legitimate wealth are caught up by international sanctions merely because of the passport they carry, the country where they live, the job they hold, the people they know, or are related to, or their proximity Eg cousin or grandchild of a sanctioned Russian politician.

Of course there are less legal reasons to hide some wealth.  Most countries have a wealth tax.  Having a bit "on the side" will no longer be possible as the world's banking system moves towards a CRS.  Some governments are totally corrupt and can seize the assets of their political opponents for no reason.  Hiding assets whilst illegal is the only way to survive for some.