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1401  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Wouldn't it be more fair if the bitcoins were shared equally? on: February 19, 2013, 05:05:29 PM


You're very much correct, but it's still very difficult to not be jealous of those people who made that excellent decision.

How do you feel about those of us with the luck to discover Bitcoin early, and the education to understand it's implications, but not the balls to invest all I *cough* <<we had?

I made a small investment in late 2010, and since then my bitcoin holdings increased in value by about 41,500%  If I had the balls to withdraw from my 401K and buy bitcoins then, I'd be that guy with a fortune close to 1% of all bitcoins.  

BTW, that is probably Satoshi himself.  If he is still alive, he deserves it.
1402  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Wouldn't it be more fair if the bitcoins were shared equally? on: February 19, 2013, 02:07:43 PM
I'm not saying i know well how bitcoins work or convert it to my suggested system. I'm saying a different system should be used where there is an authority maybe, something like paypal,  with the proper monitoring to prevent cheating, this has to be thought and invented. each one can open an account and get the coin.

I thought it was not allowed to use the P-word here. Ban him!


No.  The ignore button is to your left.
1403  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Wouldn't it be more fair if the bitcoins were shared equally? on: February 19, 2013, 02:06:13 PM
Sharing all bitcoins initially is a very hard (impossible) thing to do. Think about it.

The current method, maybe not perfect, but it *works*. Better something imperfect that works, than some idealistic notion that can never actually be implemented in the real world.

Also consider the nature of bitcoin being peer to peer. You cannot simply "give" everybody a bitcoin. Who's to decide who gets a bitcoin and who doesn't? How is that decision made? The Pope decides? Then it's no longer peer to peer and is controlled or influenced by some person or authority.

I don't think you understand how technically difficult "sharing coins equally" would be. That's the key here: not that everyone would be against the idea, but that it's technically hard/impossible to implement what you suggest in a method that is actually "fair". ("fair" also being subject to opinion)

As it is, it works much like investing in a startup company. It's like we're investing in Apple or Google or something in the early days.

Also you have to understand that the possibility of the early adopters earning a return is a great part of why Bitcoin is now successful. It's successful *because* it allowed early speculators to earn money; they drove its adoption and popularised it. If that had not been so, maybe they wouldn't have bothered so much and bitcoin would have failed or just been a niche curiosity.

The most important thing to know though is that this method is technically simple, very transparent (read: even if it's not considered "fair" by you, at least it's *HONEST* and everyone knows precisely how it occurs, and can easily make the decision whether to use it or not), and also roughly parallel to investing and speculating in something which is widely accepted as a fairly honest method of wealth gaining or creation.

I'm not saying i know well how bitcoins work or convert it to my suggested system. I'm saying a different system should be used where there is an authority maybe, something like paypal,  with the proper monitoring to prevent cheating, this has to be thought and invented. each one can open an account and get the coin.
State currencies also not perfect but work. So we are replacing one flawed system with another flawed one?
The bitcoins system looks to me far more complicated to think about and invent than implementing my suggested system.
I think it a new method can be popular anyway even without the early speculators motivation because people should know how bad the current real money system is and will want a fair alternative, and it can be more popular than bitcoins because more people will join if they think they are not discriminated between them and the early joiners.

Feel free to fork the code and attempt your view.  It's already been done, though, and it never made it out of the planning stages.  The design of Bitcoin is not arbitrary. There are many reasons that bitcoin is the way it is, and being different from central banking/fractional researve/national fiat currencies is definately one of those reasons.

The Bank of Canada is developing an electronic version of their currency, so it won't be very long before you get exactly what you want without the effort.  It remains to be seen if it will offer any real alternative to Bitcoin, though.  I have my own doubts.
1404  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Introduce yourself :) on: February 19, 2013, 04:38:26 AM

I'm new to bitcoin I was doing other things but have seen it as a payment for years. Not sure if its sustainable which is a doubt if its cut as I've read

Care to explain?
1405  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Introduce yourself :) on: February 19, 2013, 04:36:45 AM
Hey everyone, I'm B-ran, or just B. I am a member of a few forums involving btc, now this one. I actually ran upon this site due to my funds not being confirmed into my wallet so I was told to come here. Now that I found this, I am super happy because this will answer a lot of my questions. Thanks for the awesome forum admins!!

There are other forums with a focus on Bitcoin? Where?
1406  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Could Bitcoin be a solution for the raw milk market? on: February 19, 2013, 01:00:38 AM
After reading how much puss and fecal matter is in pasturized milk I dont drink it at all.  I hear raw milk is better but just stopped drinking milk completely I've been scarred.  Undecided

Most mammals stop drinking milk at a certain point in their childhood.  This is how we were built / evolved. 
A few others are pretty fucked up and drink it all the time despite the obvious health problems that result. 

Humans are, in many respects, unique among the animal kingdom.  We can actually metabolize a great many toxins, and are likely the most diverse animal in this respect.  A great example of this is chocolate, which can kill most predators if consumed in any quantity considered normal to above normal for an adult human.  Basicly the quantity required to give a child a stomach ache is likely to kill a dog without a vet's intervention.  Some things that we sometimes put into a salad are also toxic to carnivores, such as some mushrooms.  Coffee beans are mildly toxic, also.  Other less dramatic examples of commonly consumed foods that are toxic to other animals (and to some degree, humans also) include, but are not limited to, avocados, many nuts and partcularly macadamia nuts, peanuts (which, technically, are not nuts), raisins, onions, garlic, several common spices such as chives, and artifical sweeteners such as xylitol; although it's also arguable that all artifical sweeteners are also toxic to humans, by their very nature.

So the argument that humans shouldn't be drinking milk because it's not natural to drink another species' milk or beyond the age of four is, at best, lacking in scientific support.
1407  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Could Bitcoin be a solution for the raw milk market? on: February 18, 2013, 02:29:12 PM
If you guys want to die of food poisoning, that's fine with me.
This shows how powerful the propaganda of the "processed food" lobby is: their FUD make you think that it can be dangerous  not to buy their shit..
Same mechanism is used by banks to denigrate bitcoin.

Food safety is relative.  For example, nearly all salt for human consumption in the industrilized world contains iodine, because lack of iodine goitre in adults, and some types of mental retardation in infants.  Is the sale of tablesalt without added iodine illegal in the US?  No, it's not.  It simply has to be marked so that it cannot be confused with "regular" tablesalt.  I can buy it at Kroger or Wal-Mart under the names "Sea Salt", "Kosher Salt" or "Pickling Salt"; but it just never says just "Salt"unless it contains iodine.  Which is more dangerous, consuming raw milk (quickly enough to be reasonable) or consuming Kosher Salt?  Almost certainly the latter, but that point is moot.  Unpasterized milk should not be illegal in the United States, the idea is as Un-American as the table salt ban in NY city.

EDIT:  Additionally, consuming raw milk is as safe as pasturized, if the milk is consumed within a 24 hour period.  This was the economic motivation of the daily "milk man" deliveries of yesteryear.  They didn't even bother to refigerate it even after refrigerators were common.  To additionally reduce risk and impede bacterial growth, the milk man would usually add a silver dime to each bottle.  The silver in the dime would give off silver ions into the milk, which would not harm people but was toxic to bacteria.
1408  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Could Bitcoin be a solution for the raw milk market? on: February 18, 2013, 05:18:53 AM


Nothing about bitcoin changes this.  Almost all laws banning things ban the distribution AND sale so that even if you gave it away for free it would not be any different.

This is generally not true in the United States.  Since the consumption of raw milk isn't actually something that can be banned under US law, for a variety of historical reasons, it's actually the act of engaging in commerce that is prohibited with raw milk.  It's actually a law that exists to favor major dairy producers & grocery stores, since raw milk wouldn't safely survive the lengthy trip from factory farm to the grocery store to the average home refrigerator reliablely enough to compete with the small farmer who simply offers the day's raw milk for purchase.  Raw milk, kept refrigerated and consumed quickly, isn't dangerous.  It's the delay that the modern food industry adds to the mix that is risky.  Bear in mind, milk was designed to be consumed immediately; yet well before the age of refrigeration, the early production of cheese was a process that took days.
1409  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Could Bitcoin be a solution for the raw milk market? on: February 18, 2013, 05:08:25 AM
here in australia you can legally buy unprocessed 'bath milk', as long as you're only using it to add to your bath water and not drinking it *wink wink*

is this not possible in the US?


First of all, bathing in milk is very uncommon in the US, and usually only happens in spas.  But the answer to your question is no, not legally.
1410  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I was charged extra for using my credit card on: February 16, 2013, 03:00:43 AM
Fine, you guys all suck, and you all seem to have more experience with modern CC transaction than I do.  I'm too old, etc.

I still stand by my opinion that 7% isn't unrealistic.  Good luck disproving my opinion, which is what it always was, and it still is.

High?  Yes.  Excessively high?  No, it's not.  Who gets to decide?  I do, because it's my opinion.

So bite me, children.
1411  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Coinbase is "Down for maintenance" -- Missing 100BTC sent 10 hours ago. on: February 16, 2013, 02:54:41 AM
I've had positive experiences with Coinbase, but I have to admit that I've never trusted anyone with so much bitcoin value at once.  If this is a hack or a white turned black node fraud, I'm truly sorry for your loss. 
1412  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: Can we create a bitcoin mobile app store? on: February 16, 2013, 02:49:42 AM
Go right ahead, but I can't see the value myself.  Most of the bitcoin related apps I've seen are both free to download as well as host on most of the app sites for android, and you're all around screwed if you depend upon Iphones, since the Apple App Store doesn't permit anything related to bitcoins on iOS and 'failbreaking' is required to run any app not permitted by Apple.  Thus, only Android apps are likely to survive and all of them can be found on the Google Play Store.
1413  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I was charged extra for using my credit card on: February 16, 2013, 01:33:40 AM
Where do you get this idea that square can't be used at a "fixed location".  If I stand still to long does that become a fixed location.  7% for a swiped CC transaction isn't a realistic number.  You made up some stupid explanation and now just can't accept that you are wrong.  There is nothing square's TOS which prohibits it being used in a POS location.

https://squareup.com/register/receipt-printer-and-cash-drawer



Credit cards might be last world technology and a ripoff but Square is at least innovating somewhat and they deserve credit (without FUD) for that.  Hell they actually now have a 0% fee option.  $275 per month for up to $20,833 in transactions (works out to about 1.3% for a merchant which maxes it out).

Well, technically you are correct on this point.  I just checked the TOS.  No, they wouldn't prevent you from setting up Square in a normal storefront as your primary POS system.  Instead, the CC companies can compell Square to require you to engage into a pass-through agreement with the CC companies directly, which acheives the same end goal....

Quote

7. Our Role.
The Services allow you to accept payments, including card-based payments initiated with cards bearing the trademarks of MasterCard International Inc. and Visa Inc. (collectively, the “Networks”). We are not a bank, and we do not offer banking services as defined by the United States Department of Treasury. We also do not offer money service business (“MSB”) services as defined by the United States Department of Treasury.

As a merchant payment processor, Square processes payments you receive from your customers. This means that we collect, analyze and relay information generated in connection with these payments.

In order to serve in this role, we must enter into agreements with Networks, other processors and banks. These third parties require that some of our users enter into an agreement with Square’s payment processor of record. If you are such a user, we will provide you a “Commercial Entity Agreement” that you must complete in order to use the Services. This may happen during the registration process or at some other time. If you fail to complete a “Commercial Entity Agreement,” we may suspend or terminate your Square Account.

And there is an enforcement clause that you agreed to that could be used towards this end...

Quote
4. Verification and Inspection.
If your request to open a Square Account is approved, Square may request additional information from you at any time. Square may ask you to present invoices from your suppliers, a government issued identification such as a passport or driver’s license, or a business license. Square may also ask for permission to inspect your business location. If you refuse any of these requests, your Square Account may be terminated. We reserve the right to suspend or terminate the Square Account of any user who provides inaccurate, untrue, or incomplete information, or fails to comply with the account registration requirements.


So while you can set up anything that you like, if your business starts processing enough transactions that the CC companies feel that you should be paying them directly, I'm sure that they will let you know when it's time to "upgrade" your contracts.

https://squareup.com/legal/cea
1414  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Sold my truck for bitcoins on: February 16, 2013, 01:18:44 AM
Yeah, hopefully she too will one day be able to experience the wonderful benefits of:
1) Losing money to obvious ponzi schemes
2) Bitcoin bank "hacks"
3) Paying ridiculous fees for the privilege to use bitcoins
4) Having her internet fun money lose over half its value over night!

Dude, you've had some seriously poor luck.  Of the set, I've only experienced #2, for a personal cost of about $7 due to one of the early online wallet websites being hacked.  Of course, since most of my coins I bought for under a dime, the trade value of bitcoin would have to lose half it value over night, every night for a week straight before I actually lost anything at all!
1415  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I was charged extra for using my credit card on: February 16, 2013, 01:09:51 AM
Giving a discount and charging extra is two different things, be ignorant more please.


Economicly speaking, they are exactly the same.

Quote

You obviously have never used a creditcard processor.

First off 7% is unheard of unless you're selling high risk products. Please stop being ignorant and saying 7% is a normal price because you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. It does not matter if you're doing $100 in sales a day or $1000 they're not going to charge you any different rates, unless your doing massive amounts of money.

As for square, again you owe me doughnuts, or money, I like both.

https://squareup.com/register

I use square every single day.
Why them at 2.75% vs someone else at 1.99%?

1. Square I don't need to rent a swiper that costs $50-100 a month on a 4 year contract.
2. I don't need to pay $50-100 a month gateway fees.
3. I don't have all the other crazy fees.
4. Square deposits next day vs 3-4-5 days for other processors.



Note the highlighted parts of your post.  It would be trivial for those fixed fees to add up for a small vendor, and through the total for the merchant to about 7%, and you aren't even metioning all the fees that are common.  Also, does your business do enough volume to justify a storefront?  Square was never intended for POS processing with regard to fixed sale points. 
If you are using your Iphone as a cash register inside of an actual store, you're likely violating the TOS that Square had to agree to in order to get the CC compaines to sign on.
 Whether or not it's actually legal or proper for the kayak company to charge 7% was never my point, or my concern.  I was simply pointing out that, IMHO, it's not an unrealistic number.  You have failed to contradict that claim; in fact, you have managed to provide supporting evidence for my point.

I'm fine with you paying up in just doughnuts, since it was such an easy win.
1416  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: What legally prevents a business forming that lets you buy anything with bitcoin on: February 15, 2013, 11:45:13 PM
The biggest legal hurdle is the idea that you have to be a business legally in order to do legitimate & honest business.  Divest yourself of this modern corporate fiction & mind your manners and you should do fine.
1417  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Sold my truck for bitcoins on: February 15, 2013, 10:02:47 PM
Coinbase uses the exact same bank account funding methods that Paypal does, and it's about as annoying to "verify".  Mt. Gox can't do it the same way because they're out of country.  Once set up, however, Coinbase seems easier to me.
1418  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Sold my truck for bitcoins on: February 15, 2013, 09:58:21 PM
Wire transfer is still incredibly easy compared to having to bathe in the blood of a virgin and give all your personal info to use MtGox.

Why on Earth would you do that?  There are other ways to get bitcoins, they might just take more effort.
1419  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Introduce yourself :) on: February 15, 2013, 09:55:27 PM

I am mostly in it for fun at this point..

That's as good a reason as any, so long as you're not operating under any 'get rich quick' fantasy.
1420  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Newbie restrictions on: February 15, 2013, 09:46:22 PM
Please i need to buy bitcoins with paypal!
Im not a scammer

It matters not at all what you need, but only what you can offer.  If paypal is all that you can offer, then don't expect much.
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