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1401  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Could Bitcoin be a solution for the raw milk market? on: February 18, 2013, 02:29:12 PM
If you guys want to die of food poisoning, that's fine with me.
This shows how powerful the propaganda of the "processed food" lobby is: their FUD make you think that it can be dangerous  not to buy their shit..
Same mechanism is used by banks to denigrate bitcoin.

Food safety is relative.  For example, nearly all salt for human consumption in the industrilized world contains iodine, because lack of iodine goitre in adults, and some types of mental retardation in infants.  Is the sale of tablesalt without added iodine illegal in the US?  No, it's not.  It simply has to be marked so that it cannot be confused with "regular" tablesalt.  I can buy it at Kroger or Wal-Mart under the names "Sea Salt", "Kosher Salt" or "Pickling Salt"; but it just never says just "Salt"unless it contains iodine.  Which is more dangerous, consuming raw milk (quickly enough to be reasonable) or consuming Kosher Salt?  Almost certainly the latter, but that point is moot.  Unpasterized milk should not be illegal in the United States, the idea is as Un-American as the table salt ban in NY city.

EDIT:  Additionally, consuming raw milk is as safe as pasturized, if the milk is consumed within a 24 hour period.  This was the economic motivation of the daily "milk man" deliveries of yesteryear.  They didn't even bother to refigerate it even after refrigerators were common.  To additionally reduce risk and impede bacterial growth, the milk man would usually add a silver dime to each bottle.  The silver in the dime would give off silver ions into the milk, which would not harm people but was toxic to bacteria.
1402  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Could Bitcoin be a solution for the raw milk market? on: February 18, 2013, 05:18:53 AM

Nothing about bitcoin changes this.  Almost all laws banning things ban the distribution AND sale so that even if you gave it away for free it would not be any different.

This is generally not true in the United States.  Since the consumption of raw milk isn't actually something that can be banned under US law, for a variety of historical reasons, it's actually the act of engaging in commerce that is prohibited with raw milk.  It's actually a law that exists to favor major dairy producers & grocery stores, since raw milk wouldn't safely survive the lengthy trip from factory farm to the grocery store to the average home refrigerator reliablely enough to compete with the small farmer who simply offers the day's raw milk for purchase.  Raw milk, kept refrigerated and consumed quickly, isn't dangerous.  It's the delay that the modern food industry adds to the mix that is risky.  Bear in mind, milk was designed to be consumed immediately; yet well before the age of refrigeration, the early production of cheese was a process that took days.
1403  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Could Bitcoin be a solution for the raw milk market? on: February 18, 2013, 05:08:25 AM
here in australia you can legally buy unprocessed 'bath milk', as long as you're only using it to add to your bath water and not drinking it *wink wink*

is this not possible in the US?

First of all, bathing in milk is very uncommon in the US, and usually only happens in spas.  But the answer to your question is no, not legally.
1404  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I was charged extra for using my credit card on: February 16, 2013, 03:00:43 AM
Fine, you guys all suck, and you all seem to have more experience with modern CC transaction than I do.  I'm too old, etc.

I still stand by my opinion that 7% isn't unrealistic.  Good luck disproving my opinion, which is what it always was, and it still is.

High?  Yes.  Excessively high?  No, it's not.  Who gets to decide?  I do, because it's my opinion.

So bite me, children.
1405  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Coinbase is "Down for maintenance" -- Missing 100BTC sent 10 hours ago. on: February 16, 2013, 02:54:41 AM
I've had positive experiences with Coinbase, but I have to admit that I've never trusted anyone with so much bitcoin value at once.  If this is a hack or a white turned black node fraud, I'm truly sorry for your loss. 
1406  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: Can we create a bitcoin mobile app store? on: February 16, 2013, 02:49:42 AM
Go right ahead, but I can't see the value myself.  Most of the bitcoin related apps I've seen are both free to download as well as host on most of the app sites for android, and you're all around screwed if you depend upon Iphones, since the Apple App Store doesn't permit anything related to bitcoins on iOS and 'failbreaking' is required to run any app not permitted by Apple.  Thus, only Android apps are likely to survive and all of them can be found on the Google Play Store.
1407  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I was charged extra for using my credit card on: February 16, 2013, 01:33:40 AM
Where do you get this idea that square can't be used at a "fixed location".  If I stand still to long does that become a fixed location.  7% for a swiped CC transaction isn't a realistic number.  You made up some stupid explanation and now just can't accept that you are wrong.  There is nothing square's TOS which prohibits it being used in a POS location.

Credit cards might be last world technology and a ripoff but Square is at least innovating somewhat and they deserve credit (without FUD) for that.  Hell they actually now have a 0% fee option.  $275 per month for up to $20,833 in transactions (works out to about 1.3% for a merchant which maxes it out).

Well, technically you are correct on this point.  I just checked the TOS.  No, they wouldn't prevent you from setting up Square in a normal storefront as your primary POS system.  Instead, the CC companies can compell Square to require you to engage into a pass-through agreement with the CC companies directly, which acheives the same end goal....


7. Our Role.
The Services allow you to accept payments, including card-based payments initiated with cards bearing the trademarks of MasterCard International Inc. and Visa Inc. (collectively, the “Networks”). We are not a bank, and we do not offer banking services as defined by the United States Department of Treasury. We also do not offer money service business (“MSB”) services as defined by the United States Department of Treasury.

As a merchant payment processor, Square processes payments you receive from your customers. This means that we collect, analyze and relay information generated in connection with these payments.

In order to serve in this role, we must enter into agreements with Networks, other processors and banks. These third parties require that some of our users enter into an agreement with Square’s payment processor of record. If you are such a user, we will provide you a “Commercial Entity Agreement” that you must complete in order to use the Services. This may happen during the registration process or at some other time. If you fail to complete a “Commercial Entity Agreement,” we may suspend or terminate your Square Account.

And there is an enforcement clause that you agreed to that could be used towards this end...

4. Verification and Inspection.
If your request to open a Square Account is approved, Square may request additional information from you at any time. Square may ask you to present invoices from your suppliers, a government issued identification such as a passport or driver’s license, or a business license. Square may also ask for permission to inspect your business location. If you refuse any of these requests, your Square Account may be terminated. We reserve the right to suspend or terminate the Square Account of any user who provides inaccurate, untrue, or incomplete information, or fails to comply with the account registration requirements.

So while you can set up anything that you like, if your business starts processing enough transactions that the CC companies feel that you should be paying them directly, I'm sure that they will let you know when it's time to "upgrade" your contracts.
1408  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Sold my truck for bitcoins on: February 16, 2013, 01:18:44 AM
Yeah, hopefully she too will one day be able to experience the wonderful benefits of:
1) Losing money to obvious ponzi schemes
2) Bitcoin bank "hacks"
3) Paying ridiculous fees for the privilege to use bitcoins
4) Having her internet fun money lose over half its value over night!

Dude, you've had some seriously poor luck.  Of the set, I've only experienced #2, for a personal cost of about $7 due to one of the early online wallet websites being hacked.  Of course, since most of my coins I bought for under a dime, the trade value of bitcoin would have to lose half it value over night, every night for a week straight before I actually lost anything at all!
1409  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I was charged extra for using my credit card on: February 16, 2013, 01:09:51 AM
Giving a discount and charging extra is two different things, be ignorant more please.

Economicly speaking, they are exactly the same.


You obviously have never used a creditcard processor.

First off 7% is unheard of unless you're selling high risk products. Please stop being ignorant and saying 7% is a normal price because you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. It does not matter if you're doing $100 in sales a day or $1000 they're not going to charge you any different rates, unless your doing massive amounts of money.

As for square, again you owe me doughnuts, or money, I like both.

I use square every single day.
Why them at 2.75% vs someone else at 1.99%?

1. Square I don't need to rent a swiper that costs $50-100 a month on a 4 year contract.
2. I don't need to pay $50-100 a month gateway fees.
3. I don't have all the other crazy fees.
4. Square deposits next day vs 3-4-5 days for other processors.

Note the highlighted parts of your post.  It would be trivial for those fixed fees to add up for a small vendor, and through the total for the merchant to about 7%, and you aren't even metioning all the fees that are common.  Also, does your business do enough volume to justify a storefront?  Square was never intended for POS processing with regard to fixed sale points. 
If you are using your Iphone as a cash register inside of an actual store, you're likely violating the TOS that Square had to agree to in order to get the CC compaines to sign on.
 Whether or not it's actually legal or proper for the kayak company to charge 7% was never my point, or my concern.  I was simply pointing out that, IMHO, it's not an unrealistic number.  You have failed to contradict that claim; in fact, you have managed to provide supporting evidence for my point.

I'm fine with you paying up in just doughnuts, since it was such an easy win.
1410  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: What legally prevents a business forming that lets you buy anything with bitcoin on: February 15, 2013, 11:45:13 PM
The biggest legal hurdle is the idea that you have to be a business legally in order to do legitimate & honest business.  Divest yourself of this modern corporate fiction & mind your manners and you should do fine.
1411  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Sold my truck for bitcoins on: February 15, 2013, 10:02:47 PM
Coinbase uses the exact same bank account funding methods that Paypal does, and it's about as annoying to "verify".  Mt. Gox can't do it the same way because they're out of country.  Once set up, however, Coinbase seems easier to me.
1412  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Sold my truck for bitcoins on: February 15, 2013, 09:58:21 PM
Wire transfer is still incredibly easy compared to having to bathe in the blood of a virgin and give all your personal info to use MtGox.

Why on Earth would you do that?  There are other ways to get bitcoins, they might just take more effort.
1413  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Introduce yourself :) on: February 15, 2013, 09:55:27 PM

I am mostly in it for fun at this point..

That's as good a reason as any, so long as you're not operating under any 'get rich quick' fantasy.
1414  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Newbie restrictions on: February 15, 2013, 09:46:22 PM
Please i need to buy bitcoins with paypal!
Im not a scammer

It matters not at all what you need, but only what you can offer.  If paypal is all that you can offer, then don't expect much.
1415  Economy / Speculation / Re: Four hours to a new record price! ( + Poll ) on: February 15, 2013, 09:44:55 PM
chart is really lookin like a bubble.
but nobody knows when the bubble pops Smiley maybe at 30 USD, maybe at 100 USD, 1000 USD??

If you believe that it's a bubble, and you still buy more in the hopes that you can sell to the next sucker for more, you deserve whatever outcome that you get.
1416  Economy / Goods / Re: WTB: Rooted Android phone on: February 15, 2013, 09:33:31 PM
Thats kind of the direction I'm heading in.

It really depends upon what it's being used for.  It'd be a great microcontroller for a DIY drone, for example.

The Samsung Intercept was one of the first android phones to include an On-the-go USB chip, even though the official specs don't mention that it exists.  With 4.0, I can use it, but have never really done anything with it, other than to verify that it's possible.  It never seemed to be accessible with 2.3, even rooted.  However, the Samsung Intercept does not support power supply from the phone, so you'd need a power injector in order to use OTG-USB for anything that I can imagine that you'd likely use it for, otherwise all I'd need to connect my phone to a huge USB drive is a male-micro-usb to female-standard-usb cable.

EDIT:  Keep in mind, that on any android cell phone, even making normal phone calls is an 'app' that has little in the way of hardware acceleration.  My wife's cell phone, which is just a regular cell phone that can also text, makes a much better phone; but smartphones are pocket computers that can also make cell calls.  The act of actually making a phone call is relatively demanding for the Samsung Intercept, but many other things that my wife's phone can't do are trivial for it (mp3's, youtube videos, photos, capturing video, etc.)  The Samsung Intercept also isn't up to the demand of a lot of android games, as the original Angry Birds was barely playable, and Fruit Ninja had a perceptable touch lag.  This is one reason that I'm still looking for one for my daughter, as she can use it with wifi as a combo mp3 player, camera, ICQ text device, etc. without costing a great deal, and there are some games that it can play without much lag.
1417  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Cryptography Lifespan on: February 15, 2013, 09:26:31 PM
If the cryptography behind bitcoin is broken, we have much bigger problems then with just bitcoin.

Amen to that.  If the algos used in bitcoin are ever broken, it's highly likely that just about every algo in common use on the Internet is at risk, including those that secure your connection to your bank's secure website.
1418  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I was charged extra for using my credit card on: February 15, 2013, 09:21:58 PM
if i ran a business i would advertize in card price and tell everyone i give a "cash discount" =)

You would would be contractually prohibited from actually advertising the cash discount, but everyone does it.  You could go into any major electronics store right now, pick out some high dollar widescreen tv, and even if it's on sale, you could ask for the 2.x% that the company pays the CC company as an additional discount if you paid in cash, and you can expect to get it.  I've done this a dozen times over the past decade alone.  It's just not worth the effort for low value items, although I have done it at Wal-mart for a microwave that was listed for only $80 on sale at the time.  The only time that I can't expect to get it, is when the manager is busy and would consider the discount to not be worth *his* time.

You also can't expect to do this with anything in groceries.  Their margins are so tight, that the 'grocery side' of department stores don't make *anything* from there unless the customer is paying cash anyway.

BTW, this is a great way to get a new refrigerator if you've got the cash, but you would literally have to have the cash in your hands.  The managers are usually empowered to offer this cash discount, but are trained to deny the request unless they can see the cash; because so many people have been known to only have half the cash and then offer the rest as a personal check.  The big chains have been stung many times, and regard this as a kind of 'bait and switch' game.
1419  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I was charged extra for using my credit card on: February 15, 2013, 09:12:45 PM
Square charges 2.75% if the card is present. 7% is robbery and he just stole from you.

Most processors charge less than 1.99% and you can always find one that's cheaper. I've heard its as low as 1.5%.. I'm not 100% on the facts, but I also learned that when you sign up the person who signs you up makes the extra %'s.. So they're making 1.5% of your transactions, so they can always lower it and only make .5%..


Nonsense, that is not all of the charges.  Square doesn't charge for the 'interchange' fees, because they don't have too, the contracts that the CC companies had with the vendors and each other negates most of that.

And nothing in this conversation includes the interest and fees that the cardholder eats due to his own contract.

That should all be added in with your cost to rent, not given to the customer as an extra tab.

Advertising something as $100 then charging $107 because of your fees is crazy. I doubt anyone is charging 7% in any fees to swipe a card.

Is advertising something as $107 and then offering a $7 discount to cash customers any different?  Because that's basiclyhow it's been done for the past 30 years.  Yes, 7% is on the high end, but not unrealistic for a small vendor that does not frequently need to use the CC network.  7% would be very high for a volume user, such as a brick & morter retail chain of any size; in such a case the 2.x% charged by Square (due to the volume that Square can accumulate) is much more realistic.  WAl-mart can negotiate for better terms from Visa, but a small kayacking store probably can't.  I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that any business with a building of their own can't use Square due to the TOS, or Visa would have a fit.
1420  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Bitcoins in small quantities for PayPal here c: on: February 15, 2013, 09:04:40 PM
While advertising for your new bitcoin related online business isn't verboten, it's generally bad form.  Be wary & responsible, and you can continue.  However, this does not belong in the newbies forum.  This thread will be locked, and if you cannot suffer the human cost of getting out of newbie hell first, then you really don't have a business worth advertising here.

I will also note that every single business that has attempted to do what you are trying to do using Paypal has either been run into bankruptcy by Paypal's own legal team and policies, or turned out to be con artists attempting to prey on those among the forum who have not yet learned not to deal with Paypal merchants. 

Every.  Single.  One.
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