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1401  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I was charged extra for using my credit card on: February 16, 2013, 01:33:40 AM
Where do you get this idea that square can't be used at a "fixed location".  If I stand still to long does that become a fixed location.  7% for a swiped CC transaction isn't a realistic number.  You made up some stupid explanation and now just can't accept that you are wrong.  There is nothing square's TOS which prohibits it being used in a POS location.

https://squareup.com/register/receipt-printer-and-cash-drawer



Credit cards might be last world technology and a ripoff but Square is at least innovating somewhat and they deserve credit (without FUD) for that.  Hell they actually now have a 0% fee option.  $275 per month for up to $20,833 in transactions (works out to about 1.3% for a merchant which maxes it out).

Well, technically you are correct on this point.  I just checked the TOS.  No, they wouldn't prevent you from setting up Square in a normal storefront as your primary POS system.  Instead, the CC companies can compell Square to require you to engage into a pass-through agreement with the CC companies directly, which acheives the same end goal....

Quote

7. Our Role.
The Services allow you to accept payments, including card-based payments initiated with cards bearing the trademarks of MasterCard International Inc. and Visa Inc. (collectively, the “Networks”). We are not a bank, and we do not offer banking services as defined by the United States Department of Treasury. We also do not offer money service business (“MSB”) services as defined by the United States Department of Treasury.

As a merchant payment processor, Square processes payments you receive from your customers. This means that we collect, analyze and relay information generated in connection with these payments.

In order to serve in this role, we must enter into agreements with Networks, other processors and banks. These third parties require that some of our users enter into an agreement with Square’s payment processor of record. If you are such a user, we will provide you a “Commercial Entity Agreement” that you must complete in order to use the Services. This may happen during the registration process or at some other time. If you fail to complete a “Commercial Entity Agreement,” we may suspend or terminate your Square Account.

And there is an enforcement clause that you agreed to that could be used towards this end...

Quote
4. Verification and Inspection.
If your request to open a Square Account is approved, Square may request additional information from you at any time. Square may ask you to present invoices from your suppliers, a government issued identification such as a passport or driver’s license, or a business license. Square may also ask for permission to inspect your business location. If you refuse any of these requests, your Square Account may be terminated. We reserve the right to suspend or terminate the Square Account of any user who provides inaccurate, untrue, or incomplete information, or fails to comply with the account registration requirements.


So while you can set up anything that you like, if your business starts processing enough transactions that the CC companies feel that you should be paying them directly, I'm sure that they will let you know when it's time to "upgrade" your contracts.

https://squareup.com/legal/cea
1402  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Sold my truck for bitcoins on: February 16, 2013, 01:18:44 AM
Yeah, hopefully she too will one day be able to experience the wonderful benefits of:
1) Losing money to obvious ponzi schemes
2) Bitcoin bank "hacks"
3) Paying ridiculous fees for the privilege to use bitcoins
4) Having her internet fun money lose over half its value over night!

Dude, you've had some seriously poor luck.  Of the set, I've only experienced #2, for a personal cost of about $7 due to one of the early online wallet websites being hacked.  Of course, since most of my coins I bought for under a dime, the trade value of bitcoin would have to lose half it value over night, every night for a week straight before I actually lost anything at all!
1403  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I was charged extra for using my credit card on: February 16, 2013, 01:09:51 AM
Giving a discount and charging extra is two different things, be ignorant more please.


Economicly speaking, they are exactly the same.

Quote

You obviously have never used a creditcard processor.

First off 7% is unheard of unless you're selling high risk products. Please stop being ignorant and saying 7% is a normal price because you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. It does not matter if you're doing $100 in sales a day or $1000 they're not going to charge you any different rates, unless your doing massive amounts of money.

As for square, again you owe me doughnuts, or money, I like both.

https://squareup.com/register

I use square every single day.
Why them at 2.75% vs someone else at 1.99%?

1. Square I don't need to rent a swiper that costs $50-100 a month on a 4 year contract.
2. I don't need to pay $50-100 a month gateway fees.
3. I don't have all the other crazy fees.
4. Square deposits next day vs 3-4-5 days for other processors.



Note the highlighted parts of your post.  It would be trivial for those fixed fees to add up for a small vendor, and through the total for the merchant to about 7%, and you aren't even metioning all the fees that are common.  Also, does your business do enough volume to justify a storefront?  Square was never intended for POS processing with regard to fixed sale points. 
If you are using your Iphone as a cash register inside of an actual store, you're likely violating the TOS that Square had to agree to in order to get the CC compaines to sign on.
 Whether or not it's actually legal or proper for the kayak company to charge 7% was never my point, or my concern.  I was simply pointing out that, IMHO, it's not an unrealistic number.  You have failed to contradict that claim; in fact, you have managed to provide supporting evidence for my point.

I'm fine with you paying up in just doughnuts, since it was such an easy win.
1404  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: What legally prevents a business forming that lets you buy anything with bitcoin on: February 15, 2013, 11:45:13 PM
The biggest legal hurdle is the idea that you have to be a business legally in order to do legitimate & honest business.  Divest yourself of this modern corporate fiction & mind your manners and you should do fine.
1405  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Sold my truck for bitcoins on: February 15, 2013, 10:02:47 PM
Coinbase uses the exact same bank account funding methods that Paypal does, and it's about as annoying to "verify".  Mt. Gox can't do it the same way because they're out of country.  Once set up, however, Coinbase seems easier to me.
1406  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Sold my truck for bitcoins on: February 15, 2013, 09:58:21 PM
Wire transfer is still incredibly easy compared to having to bathe in the blood of a virgin and give all your personal info to use MtGox.

Why on Earth would you do that?  There are other ways to get bitcoins, they might just take more effort.
1407  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Introduce yourself :) on: February 15, 2013, 09:55:27 PM

I am mostly in it for fun at this point..

That's as good a reason as any, so long as you're not operating under any 'get rich quick' fantasy.
1408  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Newbie restrictions on: February 15, 2013, 09:46:22 PM
Please i need to buy bitcoins with paypal!
Im not a scammer

It matters not at all what you need, but only what you can offer.  If paypal is all that you can offer, then don't expect much.
1409  Economy / Speculation / Re: Four hours to a new record price! ( + Poll ) on: February 15, 2013, 09:44:55 PM
chart is really lookin like a bubble.
but nobody knows when the bubble pops Smiley maybe at 30 USD, maybe at 100 USD, 1000 USD??

If you believe that it's a bubble, and you still buy more in the hopes that you can sell to the next sucker for more, you deserve whatever outcome that you get.
1410  Economy / Goods / Re: WTB: Rooted Android phone on: February 15, 2013, 09:33:31 PM
Thats kind of the direction I'm heading in.

Quote
It really depends upon what it's being used for.  It'd be a great microcontroller for a DIY drone, for example.

The Samsung Intercept was one of the first android phones to include an On-the-go USB chip, even though the official specs don't mention that it exists.  With 4.0, I can use it, but have never really done anything with it, other than to verify that it's possible.  It never seemed to be accessible with 2.3, even rooted.  However, the Samsung Intercept does not support power supply from the phone, so you'd need a power injector in order to use OTG-USB for anything that I can imagine that you'd likely use it for, otherwise all I'd need to connect my phone to a huge USB drive is a male-micro-usb to female-standard-usb cable.

EDIT:  Keep in mind, that on any android cell phone, even making normal phone calls is an 'app' that has little in the way of hardware acceleration.  My wife's cell phone, which is just a regular cell phone that can also text, makes a much better phone; but smartphones are pocket computers that can also make cell calls.  The act of actually making a phone call is relatively demanding for the Samsung Intercept, but many other things that my wife's phone can't do are trivial for it (mp3's, youtube videos, photos, capturing video, etc.)  The Samsung Intercept also isn't up to the demand of a lot of android games, as the original Angry Birds was barely playable, and Fruit Ninja had a perceptable touch lag.  This is one reason that I'm still looking for one for my daughter, as she can use it with wifi as a combo mp3 player, camera, ICQ text device, etc. without costing a great deal, and there are some games that it can play without much lag.
1411  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Cryptography Lifespan on: February 15, 2013, 09:26:31 PM
If the cryptography behind bitcoin is broken, we have much bigger problems then with just bitcoin.

Amen to that.  If the algos used in bitcoin are ever broken, it's highly likely that just about every algo in common use on the Internet is at risk, including those that secure your connection to your bank's secure website.
1412  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I was charged extra for using my credit card on: February 15, 2013, 09:21:58 PM
if i ran a business i would advertize in card price and tell everyone i give a "cash discount" =)

You would would be contractually prohibited from actually advertising the cash discount, but everyone does it.  You could go into any major electronics store right now, pick out some high dollar widescreen tv, and even if it's on sale, you could ask for the 2.x% that the company pays the CC company as an additional discount if you paid in cash, and you can expect to get it.  I've done this a dozen times over the past decade alone.  It's just not worth the effort for low value items, although I have done it at Wal-mart for a microwave that was listed for only $80 on sale at the time.  The only time that I can't expect to get it, is when the manager is busy and would consider the discount to not be worth *his* time.

You also can't expect to do this with anything in groceries.  Their margins are so tight, that the 'grocery side' of department stores don't make *anything* from there unless the customer is paying cash anyway.

BTW, this is a great way to get a new refrigerator if you've got the cash, but you would literally have to have the cash in your hands.  The managers are usually empowered to offer this cash discount, but are trained to deny the request unless they can see the cash; because so many people have been known to only have half the cash and then offer the rest as a personal check.  The big chains have been stung many times, and regard this as a kind of 'bait and switch' game.
1413  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I was charged extra for using my credit card on: February 15, 2013, 09:12:45 PM
Square charges 2.75% if the card is present. 7% is robbery and he just stole from you.

Most processors charge less than 1.99% and you can always find one that's cheaper. I've heard its as low as 1.5%.. I'm not 100% on the facts, but I also learned that when you sign up the person who signs you up makes the extra %'s.. So they're making 1.5% of your transactions, so they can always lower it and only make .5%..


Robbery.

Nonsense, that is not all of the charges.  Square doesn't charge for the 'interchange' fees, because they don't have too, the contracts that the CC companies had with the vendors and each other negates most of that.

And nothing in this conversation includes the interest and fees that the cardholder eats due to his own contract.

That should all be added in with your cost to rent, not given to the customer as an extra tab.

Advertising something as $100 then charging $107 because of your fees is crazy. I doubt anyone is charging 7% in any fees to swipe a card.

Is advertising something as $107 and then offering a $7 discount to cash customers any different?  Because that's basiclyhow it's been done for the past 30 years.  Yes, 7% is on the high end, but not unrealistic for a small vendor that does not frequently need to use the CC network.  7% would be very high for a volume user, such as a brick & morter retail chain of any size; in such a case the 2.x% charged by Square (due to the volume that Square can accumulate) is much more realistic.  WAl-mart can negotiate for better terms from Visa, but a small kayacking store probably can't.  I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that any business with a building of their own can't use Square due to the TOS, or Visa would have a fit.
1414  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Bitcoins in small quantities for PayPal here c: on: February 15, 2013, 09:04:40 PM
While advertising for your new bitcoin related online business isn't verboten, it's generally bad form.  Be wary & responsible, and you can continue.  However, this does not belong in the newbies forum.  This thread will be locked, and if you cannot suffer the human cost of getting out of newbie hell first, then you really don't have a business worth advertising here.

I will also note that every single business that has attempted to do what you are trying to do using Paypal has either been run into bankruptcy by Paypal's own legal team and policies, or turned out to be con artists attempting to prey on those among the forum who have not yet learned not to deal with Paypal merchants. 

Every.  Single.  One.
1415  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I was charged extra for using my credit card on: February 15, 2013, 07:57:04 PM
Square charges 2.75% if the card is present. 7% is robbery and he just stole from you.

Most processors charge less than 1.99% and you can always find one that's cheaper. I've heard its as low as 1.5%.. I'm not 100% on the facts, but I also learned that when you sign up the person who signs you up makes the extra %'s.. So they're making 1.5% of your transactions, so they can always lower it and only make .5%..


Robbery.

Nonsense, that is not all of the charges.  Square doesn't charge for the 'interchange' fees, because they don't have too, the contracts that the CC companies had with the vendors and each other negates most of that.

And nothing in this conversation includes the interest and fees that the cardholder eats due to his own contract.
1416  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Just bought groceries with bitcoins on: February 15, 2013, 07:44:45 PM
Wait, What?

There is already a cash card loadable with bitcoins?  Where can I get one?
1417  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Cryptography Lifespan on: February 15, 2013, 07:43:37 PM
. . . Even if SHA-256 is partially broken (say easier to find hashes, but not fully broken) . . .
. . . If SHA-256 is ever broken, it won't matter much what the ASIC miners had planned.
If it is only partially broken, we'd just see the difficulty increase substantially.

And in a way that ASICs likely couldn't compete with anyway, since they can't be altered to take advantage of any shortcuts found; whereas GPU miners most certainly could.  I'd say it's almost a certainty that if any portion of SHA-256 appears to be at risk, there will be little resistance from the mining community.
1418  Economy / Goods / Re: WTB: Rooted Android phone on: February 15, 2013, 07:39:54 PM
I recommend that you go onto Ebay and buy a used Samsung Intercept for Virgin Mobile or Sprint.  They will be cheaper than any other Android because they are fairly old and cannot be switched to a GSM carrier due to hardware issues.  Not the fastest phone anymore, never was really; but it does work and can be upgraded to 4.0 after rooting, and it's easy to root.  I have one and am considering buying a spare to give to myt daughter as a wifi only device.  Great machines for the price.
I had an Intercept before I switched to the Optimus Slider on VM. The Intercept sucks. Everything about it is slow and inadequate: CPU, RAM, internal storage... And that's assuming you don't have a unit that decides it's going to have major issues. I've owned 3 Intercepts, and members of my family have owned another 4, and almost every single one has been hated and barely functional. I feel kinda bad for trashing on them so much, but at the same time, I kinda don't. Tongue

Are you saying that I ended up with the only apple, or that your entire family ended up with the lemons?  After three years, you can't expect that the cell phone is going to be a superstar, but if it's just now being sold as used, it's probably not a lemon either.

Mine runs 4.0 just fine, as long as I don't try to listen to a podcast and answer a call over a bluetooth earpiece at the same time.  It can't handle the pause, switch, connect, answer and unmute in a fast enough time period to actually accept an incoming phone call; but they all have their limitations.  It really depends upon what it's being used for.  It'd be a great microcontroller for a DIY drone, for example.
1419  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Cryptography Lifespan on: February 15, 2013, 07:33:08 PM
but also any change in the protocol would need the acceptance of the majority of bitcoin users.

Even if SHA-256 is partially broken (say easier to find hashes, but not fully broken), you-d see major resistance from ASIC miners. You might even get a split network.

Whoever holds the crowd holds the coinvalue.

We'd be on the 3rd or 4th generation of ASICs by the time SHA-256 needs to be replaced under any realistic conditions, but even then the transitional process wouldn't likely make the ASIC's completely worthless.  For example, the crypto setup for the blockchain (wherein SHA-256 is used) has "hooks" for using two different algo's in series.  Currently, SHA-256 is simply used twice, but if things start looking like SHA-256 is at risk of being undermined; the developers could switch one of those methods to some other algo, so that both SHA-256 and the new algo must be employed.  This would still give those professional miners with SHA-256 ASICs an advantage over GPUs for a time, as well as a future set of algos in order to develop the next set of ASICs for.  If SHA-256 is ever broken, it won't matter much what the ASIC miners had planned.
1420  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Cryptography Lifespan on: February 15, 2013, 07:24:47 PM
The first ascii character in the bitcoin address is what tells the bitcoin network what type of bitcoin address it is, and thus what method of cryptography is employed.  Currently, all regular bitcoin addresses begin with a "1", and the network cannot recognize any other kind within the main network.  (there is also a 'testnet' for development, which can use addresses that begin with "a" as well, IIRC)

The point is that you can use the current algo for as long as you like, and the network will not care; but if the algo is ever 'broken' there will be a push into another address algo that will be able to coexist with the running network.  As long as you transition to the new algo within a reasonable period of time, you won't risk losing your coins and a "Bitcoin v.2.x" will not be necessary.  This has been pre-planned from the start, by Satoshi himself.  There is a different modular algo system in place for transitioning the blockchain crypto (which is different, BTW) should that ever prove necessary, also without so much as skipping a block/beat.

The next address algo will likely produce addresses that start with a "2", so as you can guess, we've got till at least "9" before things get visually confusing.
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