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1481  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The Paradox of Privacy and Decentralization: Banning Mixers on Bitcointalk.org on: December 04, 2023, 07:50:04 AM
Quote
in the real world its not upto alice to pay charlie
I think indirectly, but it is. What about tipping the waiter?
Quote
alice should not be organising how much charlie gets paid, or ensuring charlie gets paid when bob sells an item, nor completely avoiding bob and just handing funds to charlie

yes we could change the economics of real world business transactions and interrogate all retailers spending to do payments for them
where instead of having price tags that are:
$300 [$285 + $15 (5%) sales tax] to become
$300 [$255 + $30 employee commission + $15 (5%) sales tax] where it cuts out the business from needing to later pay the employee

but the reality is when you buy a TV/PC from best-buy. you pay best-buy. .. the HR/accounting department of best-buy then pay an employee as a separate transaction at the end of the month

after all in most cases the customer does not know all of best-buys internal costs where best-buy pays out labour, bills, share dividends at the end of the month/year so its kinda impractical to interrogate the retailer about their future spending plans to reduce their transactions by you performing them for them

Note that the code can do a lot of good things. Which means, it is possible to write some code, that will allow transaction joining, and sending it later in a batched version to the network. And note that even though this kind of service meets the definition of the mixer, it is still allowed by the rules, if you don't control the funds of your users, or if you can meet any other condition, listed by theymos. There are many ways to do that.

much like mixing is mentioned in regulations.. so is coinjoining, tumbling, AEC, obfuscation
https://www.fatf-gafi.org/content/dam/fatf-gafi/guidance/Second-12-Month-Review-Revised-FATF-Standards-Virtual-Assets-VASPS.pdf
Quote
The market for anonymity-enhancing tools and methods is in rapid flux. For
example, several mixer/tumbler services have been taken offline following
enforcement action for operating as unregistered VASPs. Some VASPs have also
delisted AECs due to their ML/TF risks, which has reduced access to AECs.
Nonetheless, some AECs have seen increased adoption by darknet markets and
ransomware actors, while bitcoin or fiat currencies still seems to be the major
settlement methods. For example, while cybercriminals often require payment in
bitcoin, some ransomware operators have offered discounted rates to victims who
pay in AECs, likely to reduce transparency of payments. In addition, the last year has
seen significant increase in the use of privacy wallet transfers where multiple
people’s transactions are combined into a single transfer, such as CoinJoin. Overall,
the use of anonymity enhancements remains a key area of ML/TF concern
.

currently "coinjoin" is not specifically on a list of things VASPS need to actually monitor/do things about officially/specifically. and its just something regulators recently are starting to learn about/discuss/have concerns. but soon enough they will add it to official guidance to monitor coinjoin users

the smarter trick is to go deeper in thought.. like "buy/sell game credit" where deposited coin is not same taint as withdrawn. but the service is advertising as a legit service of retail gaming. instead of promoting itself as "privacy" "coin cleaning" "mixing"
smart people can work out how to use legit services to their "privacy" advantage without needing it advertised as "privacy enhancing"

heck there were even the olden days where you deposit fiat into btc-e create a 'MT-Gox code' and using bitinstant reserves then use the code on mtgox to then withdraw through mtgox.. and that was not considered 'laundering' but instead 'arbitrage'. it was not advertised as "privacy enhancing. though many smart people knew the benefits of using the codes to "arbitrage" their way to different coin holdings
(bitinstant did not get shut down or charged due to its mtgox-btc-e code reserves.. it got shut down because the compliance officer was doing private trades with a drug dealer he had full knowledge about)

EG set up TWO services
a. a legitimate service people can buy 'game credit codes' (offering no withdrawal)
b. a legitimate service people can sell 'game credit codes' (offering no deposits)

thus each business cannot be considered a money service business/exchange. because individually they are retailers
1482  Other / Meta / Re: [Voting 2023] Bitcointalk Community Awards 🏆 on: December 04, 2023, 06:58:43 AM
  • AntiHero: <Abstain. We all know who this guy is but I'm not going to name names.>

its not like "this guy" will win any prize. so no point abstaining
Antihero
He never wanted to be a villain, but he had to accept the rules of the game in which he “plays black” [no prizes].
1483  Other / Off-topic / Re: Time is more important than money on: December 04, 2023, 01:10:17 AM
money is important because it then allows you to enjoy the time

without money you are homeless spending hours trying to find a warm place to rest. spending time trying to find clean water. spending time trying to get free food

having enough money allows you to save time. so much so you can find a great balance of instead of
$0:14hours foraging 10 hours resting

$80:8hours working, 6 hours leisure, 10 hours resting (paid $10/h)
if you imagine the normal 30:30:30 of housing:bills:leisure
the leisure time(0:0:30 of $80) is $26.66 for 6 hours ($4.44 an hour)

so knowing bills and rent dont increase by earning more
you can for $88.88 afford 8 hours of leisure meaning you could work for just 6 hours
$14.82/h for 6 hours would afford you 8 hours of leisure

you can for $97.76 afford 10 hours of leisure meaning you could work for just 4 hours
$24.44/h for 4 hours would afford you 10 hours of leisure

you can for $106.64 afford 12 hours of leisure meaning you could work for just 2 hours
$53.32/h for 2 hours would afford you 12 hours of leisure

so money can help give you time and afford to do things in that time
1484  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Target Prices and Resistance Levels? on: December 04, 2023, 12:21:20 AM
This is why I don't awaits for the falling rate (depreciation value) to come before I could accumulate more to my Bitcoin wallet rather if chances comes at a falling of price, such is are appreciatable reasons to take advantage and accumulate more.
..
That is just to say the agitations, the predictions and the exaggerations about the values of Bitcoin is just rumours just as OP has said it is because Bitcoin is hovered according to its potential volatility.

"value" is not PRICE
the value is the long term bottomline SUPPORT where no one sells below..
the price wiggles above value

here (in green) is where value is roughly laid out
1485  Economy / Economics / Re: The power of investment choices on: December 03, 2023, 07:46:59 PM
jumping on every coin and having funds spread over 100 coins at 1% each is bad practice

first of all researching all 100 coins becomes too relaxed, people wont spend time researching them all and just blindly jump
by this i mean
a. when most people hear in media that a coin is pumping. they jump in not realising they are buying at the tip of the pump and its about to correct back down
b.most coins have no sustainability plan. they are just a one shot wonder pump and dump where they end up at $0

you should always:
a. look at longevity coins that have been around a while.
b. work out if they have a minting/mining cost and calculate the most efficient mining cost on the planet
c. look at the historic ATH
d. then viewing the (b)   price    (c)   EG (b)ppppppppp(c)
(b)ppppppppp(c) = buy (if price is near (b) value)
(b)ppppppppp(c) = dont buy (if price is near (c) premium)

always buy low sell high.. and once bought, never sell at a loss
never sell just to exit because you need the funds out to buy into next coin if what you are selling is at a loss to its buy
always sell when you see profit.

also know enough about a coin to know if they have REAL plans of user adoption/future growth. EG they have real world use
EG they have real world mining costs that are going to rise

instead of saying to yourself ill wait until x3 multiplier, i hope to achieve in 2 years.. look at your investment and think
if i can get 300% in 2 years then if i see 210% in under 1 year i can take it (110% extra in 1 year)
if i can get 300% in 2 years then if i see >160% in under 6month i can take it  (60% extra in 6 month)
if i can get 300% in 2 years then if i see >115% in under 1month i can take it  (15% extra in 1 month)
you may end up with more then 3x added up if you play the right markets to then re-invest on the lows of other investments
1486  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The Paradox of Privacy and Decentralization: Banning Mixers on Bitcointalk.org on: December 03, 2023, 06:43:46 PM
Quote
cough cough satoshi-dice cough cough
This is strange. You don't support Ordinals, but you support Satoshi Dice? Why? One kind of spam is acceptable, and another kind of spam is not? Because yes, if your model pushes more data on-chain, instead of pushing less, then it can be considered as a spam.

ordinals are large junk meme transactions
spam (including privacy spam) can be charged independently at a higher rate
for instance a fee formulae where utxo that moves with less then X confirms pays more

my tickly throat was not to say more spam is better. it was actually that services need to act smarter with what they advertise

The real solution is to make transactions smaller, not bigger, and to make less of them, not more, while preserving coin flow. Which means, if you have Alice->Bob->Charlie, then making Alice->Charlie transaction is better, because then Bob can gain more privacy, if he needs that. However, expanding it into Alice->Dice->Bob->Dice->Charlie is not going to help anyone, it will just raise the fees for everyone (unless you introduce difficulty-like adjusted maximum block size, but then what would stop mining pools from abusing that, to store their Ordinals, or even to push altcoins on-chain, wrapped into bitcoin UTXOs?).

also things are not alice->bob->charlie in real life
EG
alice buys something from bobs shop
bob pays his employee charlie..

in the real world its not upto alice to pay charlie. alice should not be organising how much charlie gets paid, or ensuring charlie gets paid when bob sells an item, nor completely avoiding bob and just handing funds to charlie

as for mixers
its not
alice->mixer->bob

its actually
alice->mixer reserveZ
dave->mixer reserveZ
fred->mixer reserveZ

mixer reserveG-> fred
mixer reserveS ->bob
mixer reserveK-> dave(or back to alice new unused address)

yes the mixer should pay higher fee and there should also be some other mixer->mixer in the middle incurring more fee's
but they should pay more fee by spamming every block with low confirm age, for the privilege of priority
where only those with low confirms re-spending so fast should pay more then base fee.. whereby others with confirm age over 1 day get to pay flat rate base fee
1487  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The Paradox of Privacy and Decentralization: Banning Mixers on Bitcointalk.org on: December 03, 2023, 02:43:55 PM

The problem I see with this is that it is just one more step in saying goodbye to privacy in Bitcoin. Mixers have been banned here because it won't be long before there will be regulations expressly prohibiting them. I said it some time ago: services that serve to obfuscate the origin of funds cannot have much future.

The casinos that have been so important in the history of Bitcoin and Bitcointalk will have to end up operating like fiat casinos, with everyone perfectly identified from the beginning among other things.

We are on a seemingly unstoppable path of loss of privacy in general, and Bitcoin is not going to be an exception.


It won't be that. I believe it will be wallet apps that will start having features that will "warn" users that they are about to receive a "tainted" input. As more users become "taint-aware", the moment they receive a "tainted" input, it's going to be a game of hot-potato.

- Users would sell those "tainted" coins as soon as possible, making the price of "tainted" Bitcoins lower than "clean" Bitcoins.


b. invent a new service that does not even mention privacy/cleaning, mixing.. and is more creative with how it takes in deposits and withdraws .. cough cough satoshi-dice cough cough


Isn't there an upgrade that would make transactions for opening Lightning channels indistinguishable from normal transactions?

you dont need a bitcoin upgrade. you just need to think smarter, lightning can do some changes and fix their flaws, even flaws in regard to how recognisable a channel lock format is
1488  Economy / Economics / Re: Is there a correlation between liquidity and volatility? on: December 03, 2023, 09:52:38 AM
What gives fluctuation in price is supply and demand and the rate of change between them. If the rate of change of supply to demand were constant, the price would be stable regardless of liquidity. If we take real estate as an example, it is considered one of the assets that is difficult to liquidate. However, severe fluctuation in its prices can occur. Just like gold, the market varies according to markets, but in the end, stable supply and demand, or the rate of change between them that is not abnormal, is what makes the price of gold somewhat stable, which is what makes real estate and Bitcoin fluctuate despite the difference in liquidity between them.

i laugh at the highschool lessons you have been taught..
"supply/demand" is a meaningless expression unless you understand the context of such words

EG supply..
in 2012 there were only 11.5m btc in circulation.. in 2023 there are 19.5m..
more "supply" now yet prices are >6000x compared to 2012($6)

EG demand..
if bitcoin was only sold/mined/used in america, on american exchanges that only allowed americans to trade. the demand would fix the price to a smaller speculation range/window. it wouldnt matter if the exchange had reserves of 2m btc or 200k btc. the price would only pivot within a smaller slimmer range
1489  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Target Prices and Resistance Levels? on: December 03, 2023, 09:42:56 AM
I don't even know now if I'm still going to take a profit when the price goes to 50k because I have a feeling that when it hits that point, we would probably see bitcoin go to 100k or higher so might as well hold on to my bitcoins for now, don't want selling prematurely.

if you have a $50k target where you might sell. but then have the FOMO of hoard for higher returns. you are not forced to make one or the other decision.. you can always .. do both.
sell half hoard half

if the price drops you can buy more in the dip using the half thats then fiat. if the price continues to rise you still have half to get to next target at 100k

the real question is not if it will reach $100k.. its more about when.. so the real decision is. do you really need some(half) fiat when it hits $50k or can you wait it out longer
1490  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The Paradox of Privacy and Decentralization: Banning Mixers on Bitcointalk.org on: December 03, 2023, 09:17:42 AM
The problem I see with this is that it is just one more step in saying goodbye to privacy in Bitcoin. Mixers have been banned here because it won't be long before there will be regulations expressly prohibiting them. I said it some time ago: services that serve to obfuscate the origin of funds cannot have much future.

The casinos that have been so important in the history of Bitcoin and Bitcointalk will have to end up operating like fiat casinos, with everyone perfectly identified from the beginning among other things.

We are on a seemingly unstoppable path of loss of privacy in general, and Bitcoin is not going to be an exception.

thats where things need to be more creative

before bitcoin was a currency. satoshi-dice worked great because it was not gambling currency. and though people used it as a mixer it never advertised itself as such

now that bitcoin is defined as a currency asset, people need to read the regulations and find the exceptions
new methods can be made where it doesnt involve a "service provider" (VASP)
if people cared more about privacy instead of middlemen service provider income, they can find ways.. only problem is the so called privacy guys care more about promoting/offering a service for a fee.. so they end up shooting themselves in the foot by accepting a payment/commission for offering a service

bitcoin isnt the problem. centralised services (vasps and MSB) are
everyone knows governments cant attack the network, they get court orders on service providers
1491  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Target Prices and Resistance Levels? on: December 03, 2023, 03:16:50 AM
resistance level is a point in which the coin has struggled to get past historically speaking when the price is almost at the resistance level investors might anticipate a gradual slowdown of increased prices

no its not based on "historically" you are obviously someone that just watching youtube trend anals that show a chart and then draws a line and say "look this also happened in X year"
if your influencer just talks about triangle patterns and moving averages.. unsubscribe from that influencer.

those type of people are not Technical Analysts .. they are Trend Anals
big difference

if you are not looking at mining costs of well known asic farms locations
if you are not looking at known exchange reserves in:out flows..
if you are not looking at the demography of traders..
if you are not looking at UTXO confirmation age...
if you are not looking at the spot market depths..
if you are not looking at futures markets limits.

then you are not doing technical analysis
1492  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin mixing is NOT money laundering, per se on: December 03, 2023, 01:40:40 AM
I don't believe everyone who uses mixers is a criminal, but you can definitely be associated with criminals and get in trouble.

i too dont believe all users are criminals.. but there lays the problem.. mixers only worl if they can recruit innocents.. the innocent people with coins unrelated to crimes usually deposit their clean coins and end up withdrawing the bag of crap dirty coins.. thus aiding the criminals by handing them clean coins
the victims are then left being treated as suspicious to a higher threshold as they now have a taint path back to a tagged criminal act before the mixer, but handed to victims via the mixer
1493  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Everything you wanted to know about Grayscale BTC Trust but were afraid to ask! on: December 03, 2023, 01:19:58 AM
Let's just make a small recap of the current situation.

Firstly, an overview of the current situation:



i was about to put together a table of the different exchanges the applicants want to appear on. thanks for saving me time(have my usual merit giveaway)

most share traders/pension managers care more about the nasdaq first then NYSE second.. the cboe are way down the scale
my odds are still on blackrock(ishares) being first mover for nasdaq

as for NYSE
though bitwise and hashdex are a few steps behind. i still dont think SEC trusts grayscale enough so could delay all NYSE candidates. but thats my opinion based on all the DCG drama with the SEC.
grayscale also realised they were not etf experts so recently head-hunted and hired one from investco.. grayscale may now have some expertise to adapt their platform to tick-box a few more sec requirements, only time will tell
1494  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Target Prices and Resistance Levels? on: December 03, 2023, 12:16:33 AM
So which post is correct here on the actual meaning of target price and resistance levels?

target is more individualistic in peoples heads
resistance is more collective in market order books and notable collective futures contract points
1495  Economy / Economics / Re: Is there a correlation between liquidity and volatility? on: December 02, 2023, 07:11:38 PM
things like gold have set market rate which they control the international rate with things like "circuit breaks" to stop large price movements. they also select certain markets to sell gold for more controls

however bitcoin is truly an international market where there are many markets..

what you have to learn is that bitcoin mining in iceland is 10x cheaper than mining in japan/hawaii
so pacific ocean countries are willing to pay alot more market price because its below mining cost..
where as the northern atlantic/norweigen sea/siberian sea touching countries are mining and would rather sell

because the controls are not there to stifle free market. the price can vary alot when different countries have higher demands than others

take gold again. it might seem cheap to mine gold in africa. but the big quarrys are american/EU managed so the natives dont get to sell at a premium and push the price down to their cost rate. they instead just get paid low salary as employees. the americans/EU managers take it to us/eu and sell it for profit whilst keeping the markets inflated to not crash down to african true mining cost rate
1496  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The Paradox of Privacy and Decentralization: Banning Mixers on Bitcointalk.org on: December 02, 2023, 02:54:41 PM
also dont forget these two details

1. many bitcoiners lobbied to get governments to recognise bitcoin as a currency.. opening the door to currency regulations
   (2009-2013 bitcoin was defined as private property. 2014-now its currency)

2. regulations actually require businesses to watch/monitor mixer users that deposit with them, more so than other random people transacting on the blockchain. so using a mixer doesnt offer better privacy, it puts you on a watchlist due to using a mixer.

the solution, if regulators require businesses to monitor mixer users..
a. stop using mixers
b. invent a new service that does not even mention privacy/cleaning, mixing.. and is more creative with how it takes in deposits and withdraws .. cough cough satoshi-dice cough cough
1497  Economy / Economics / Re: Cracking the Code of Saving Money... on: December 02, 2023, 02:03:22 PM
to put aside $10k a year
is /365 = $27.40 a day(7day week) $38 a day(5day week)

if someone can find a part time job for 3 hours for $10-15/h. or do some over time you can more then afford to save $10k a year
if you waste $28 a day on fast food, retail sold coffee, frivolous spending each day. stop. you can more then afford to save $10k a year

working just 40 hours a week for 52 weeks = 2080hours. means you need to ask for $5 an hour pay rise to get $10k a year saved
asking for $5/hr payrise is sometimes harder to convince your boss, compared to getting overtime/side hustle or save on frivolous things


find a combination to try to find $28 a day(every weekday) $38(5days a week)
it can be saving $19 on frivolous and earning $19 doing a couple extra hours work
maybe a second job or a side hustle like food delivery
1498  Economy / Economics / Re: Imaginary Future on: December 02, 2023, 01:32:19 PM
budgeting is the answer

EG those that are full on anal about saving.. budget it
for instance
new bedframe and mattress every 8 years (expect 4 years incase of damage) $1200 / 48months = $25/month to save
new fridge freezer every 6 years (expect 3 years incase of damage) $600 / 36months = $17/month to save
new washing machine every 6 years (expect 3 years incase of damage) $400 / 36months = $12/month to save
new boiler every 10 years (expect 5 years incase of damage) $2500 / 60months = $42/month to save
new PC every 6 years(expect 3 years incase of damage) $600 / 36months = $17/month to save
meaning you would put aside $113 a month to cover appliences whereby within a few months you can cover if one of them stopped working

and then set a budget for hobbies. that way because its part of a budget there is no guilt in spending because its part of your affordability plan
and then set a budget for "f**k U money" hobbies. buy anything in that budget there is no guilt in spending because its part of your affordability plan
1499  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin mixing is NOT money laundering, per se on: December 02, 2023, 01:15:47 PM
if you want to have a gun. dont advertise it to make yourself a target.. in short: use it dont advertise it
if you want use/be a mixer. dont advertise it to make yourself a target.. in short: use it dont advertise it
I agree with you on that approach but mixers are a little different. Mixers aren't as famous as guns. Someone has to promote mixers in order to increase awareness. There are people on this forum who are capable to promote mixers and take care of their privacy at the same time. If they use it and advertise and are making themselves a target, it's their problem. You, as a member, see the pros and cons of mixers and you can use it without promoting or suggesting it to other people.

We have Monero for better privacy, thanks god, it's legal and untouched and it's not necessary to ruin Bitcoin by making changes that will worsen the situation in crypto world and will lead to more regulations.

By the way, I don't know if blackhatcoiner promotes the mixer usage to gain more profit because he probably doesn't own mixer and profit generated from mixer signature is not enough to live or survive in Europe (he seems to be from Greece). I can't talk about BHcoiner but there are genuinely some people who advocate for protecting privacy.


Look at this, they want to completely control what people do:
EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems
Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU
EU Digital Identity framework (eIDAS) another kind of chat control

firstly.. dont cite blog posts of tin foilers.. actually take time to read the regulations the tin foilers paranoia over.. form own opinion
the eIDAS is not actually requiring all EU websites to certificate and then ask for ID.. its actually simply that government run websites will have a log-in security certificate, which they want webbrowsers to have a wallet extension/add-on which recognises a EU government site to allow people to log in using a government ID on government sites (not normal websites). the actual debate is the government wanting browsers to have these wallets installed as default extensions where the wallet is closed source so browser operators are unsure what the wallet actually does.. thats it

secondly
advertising a swap service where whats deposited is not the same coin origins as whats withdrew can be advertised creatively as a different service that does not even sound anything close to the words "mixer, tumbler, obfuscate, AEC, privacy" however those wanting privacy can figure out what the service does wink wink nudge nudge.. cough satoshi dice cough

but blatantly advertising that more people should use mixers and pretending that users of mixers are not monitored more closely is dumb

as for thinking those advertising mixers "on this forum. who are capable to promote mixers and take care of their privacy at the same time" pfft
blackhat isnt capable
angelo is from greece and his home interior walls where he plays with his gadgets is painted blue.
oeleo was a doctor, windfury was into woodwork/carpentry. ud be surprised what these people reveal about themselves.. they dont care about their own privacy, they definitely dont care about other peoples privacy. recruiting people into being monitored more highly..  they just care about promoting a service they get income from

i for months have been suggesting they need to re-vamp the services they promote and tweak things, maybe i was too subtle with the hints. yea yea i dont spoonfeed babies.. but they just wanted to play dumb pretend there is not problems and their promotions offer users guaranteed invisibility .. pfft
1500  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin mixing is Money laundering, if they make it a Law. Will LN hubs be Next on: December 02, 2023, 11:07:15 AM
Probably we will see devs working on LN facing charges like the tornado cash dev at some point ? Authorities work slow but they will act at some point .

tornado dev didnt get charged for just writing mixer code. he got charged for receiving a fee for being personally involved in shuffling funds used in a crime

its like silk road owner.. if he just operated a craigs list platform where he never touched any coin.never took a fee.. his life story would be very different

LN devs wont be charged just for writing LN code. but if they operate a node channel that allows routing of their funds to process payments for a fee on behalf of others..  and if they take a fee for routing. then they are operating as a MSB. and thus need to be doing things as suggested by regulations. if they dont and if found they processed and profited from routing to a threshold that treats them as a business.. but never registered as one. then trouble begins
if they then ontop are found to have processed criminal/illicit payments. then they can be charged for bigger crimes.

tornado dev didnt get charged for just writing code
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