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3421  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [SHOCK] Core dev and Blockstream employee tells bitcoin users to use fiat! on: June 03, 2017, 10:15:09 PM
To say PoW is more secure than PoS is quite a stretch. The security of PoS completely relies on how many  Bitcoins would be staking and there's no way of telling who would stake. What we can say though, is that staking can be done on any pc, even on raspberry pi's, each of them securing a full node. You don't even need that large a percentage to make a stake attack completely untenable. 

For your argument to work you'd need way too many people saying no to that juicy 1% to 5% (the fewer stake, the more rewarding staking gets) dividend. 

the value of an address does not suddenly change the security of an address!!!!

if you think the ECDSA security becomes magically stronger if someone has 0.1btc compared to someone else who only has 0.001btc. is foolish
ECDSA doesnt become more secure the more value you add

..

PoS is less about security and more about "i wanna get paid to keep my computer on"

the way people should be thinking of is. "if i secure the blockchain by validating blocks, i get rewarded by my holdings value increase"

in short you can hope to turn 0.1 into 0.1001 by ding PoS .. but if that system is not as secure.. that 0.1001 Value can decrease even if the count of satoshis increase
3422  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [SHOCK] Core dev and Blockstream employee tells bitcoin users to use fiat! on: June 03, 2017, 09:48:35 PM
Why would a secretary be paid more than a boss, especially for doing work that a boss could simply automate? Where's the logic in that?

Miners aren't doing any important work. That's an illusion created by the difficulty arms race they're caught up in. A few individuals with industrial scale gear having a complete monopoly on a whole currency. Those aren't secretaries, they're  more like the Federal Reserve.

firstly.. in the real world
a boss sits in a leather chair and gets others to do work. a secretary does the hard work of organising the bosses workload, communicating out memo's etc. and securing the papers in the companies safe(block)..
 in a fair world the boss would not earn as much as the secretary. but its the boss in the end that decides what is good or bad work and can trash any work done even if it took alot of money to produce said work. the boss can throw the safe(block) full of tx data out the window and make the secretary start again


take any industry..
for instance sports.
would you say the football manager deserves to get paid more than the trainer or the footballer. morally no...

yeh a trainer is the guy that makes players get in line, do certain formations, but the boss can still sack them even if the trainer has put years into its work on the team.

..
why nodes feel they deserve to get paid more then miners because without nodes the miners could falsify records and thats why they want PoS.. purely to get paid... thats why they want LN so that nodes get paid.

but that then weakens the security of the system
PoS is NOT as secure as PoW. LN is not as secure as PoW
so in bitcoins symbiotic relationship removing PoW just to pay nodes has its down sides too

...
if we go down that route of nodes getting paid. next the devs who will want to be paid... which then makes other issues too..
BUT.

howver if you take away "who deserves to get paid" from the argument and just concentrate on the security symbiotic relationship of pools, nodes, devs.. bitcoin works better than PoS

..
if you want to talk about the "who deserves to get paid".. then think about this.
owning a share(coin) of a company for 5 years goes from $6 - $2400 purely because of how the bosses have so far ensured a good reliable system without any fraud being allowed through via any nasty secretaries. you start to see that those running nodes are usually the ones with larger stakes 'shares' holdings. that want to secure their holdings and maximise their holdings.

so in my eyes bosses are getting paid by their 'share value' increase. and dont need to take a weekly salary.

..
what could or should change to avoid devs going on strike or devs refusing to listen to the community is 'feature bounties'
imagine it like if the community want feature X. a bip is created with a bitcoin address and the community donate what value they feel thy want to give devs to see that feature occur.
thus crowd funding development.




anyway this has veared off topic...
so reigning it back in.

bitcoin has become more expensive than fiat.
3423  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [SHOCK] Core dev and Blockstream employee tells bitcoin users to use fiat! on: June 03, 2017, 01:55:29 PM
We can mince words about how to define 'the community'.   

'Miners' and 'users' are two different groups of people and their interests are completely contrary to one another. 

Proof of Work is perverse. Bitcoin is the fat bloated canary in the coalmine and when it dies the miners move on moving on to throttle the next coin they can mine, control and suck dry, like a swarm of locusts. 

Why do you think so many coins are desperately trying to move to Proof of Stake?

consensus, when actually acknowledged and utilised properly, works
but devs avoid consensus.

also those wanting PoS dont care about longevity/security. they just hope for a slice of the reward pie without doing any work. EG they dont want to be the boss validating secretaries/ reviewing devs work and they dont want the secretary to be paid better than the boss. instead they just want to be share holders getting weekly dividends, all for the cost of signing a piece of paper
3424  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [SHOCK] Core dev and Blockstream employee tells bitcoin users to use fiat! on: June 03, 2017, 01:48:22 PM
Superb, this is where you got cornered

You have just given the miners a perfect reason to loudly and vocally scream about virtually anything. Since the community is everyone (and don't forget about his mangy dog) but no one will ever be happy with everything, the miners can safely claim whatever they want about how much they care for Bitcoin and everything, and then go on squeezing profits as per usual without any fear that their proposals will ever get implemented for real. BU is a glaringly conspicuous example of just that, no one meant it to kick off for real

you seem obsessed about miners

lol

if you were to imagine bitcoin as a company.. miners are just the secretary. they just get paid for collating the data in a certain format.
nodes are the bosses who decide what is acceptable and devs are the employee's that make the product that the bosses want

yes we the users are the bosses, we verify the secretaries work and trash the secretaries work thats not right. we decide what should happen to bitcoin and the devs (employees) listen and do what the bosses say

but right now the devs are on strike. they want to take bitcoin in a new direction. refusing to make products we want and only wanting to make what they think is best.

they tried to bypass the bosses consent thinking that if they got the secretary to sign off on the paperwork that the devs/employees could take over the company.. but no..

now the devs are trying to sack the secretary by trying to sway the bosses to presume the strike is the secretaries fault.. and then to give into employee(dev) demands to change the companies product into what the devs want to produce. but that wont really work either.

the ultimate solution is the obstructionist devs should just go get another job for another company(coin) and the the bosses(nodes) can find other employee's to make the products the bosses want.

...
we should not be treating devs as gods. they are temporary and yes miners are temporary too..
many devs hav moved onto other projects and many more will in the future.. blockstream dont care about bitcoin. they just want to fill their C.V with certain work history to impress their next boss (hyperledger). they are even willing to jump over to competing companies(litecoin). but that should not mean we give into their whims just to keep them around a few months longer. especially with their actions that have caused issues over the last 3 years.

yes devs removed fee control mechanisms, ignored orders to make real bigger blocks, ignored orders to truly get txsigops under control, they just done some cludgy math workaround patches rather then real clean work.

segwit is not a solution. its still a patchwork of cludge to send bitcoin in circles with the same empty HOPE of 7tx/s with no actual promise/guarantee of achieving.
while leaving the backdoor open to mess with bitcoin more. doing all of that while pointing their fingers at the secretary(pool)..

its time bitcoin remembers its manifesto/ethos and purpose for existing.. and let the blockstreamist devs go. rather then promote them into bing the boss
3425  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [SHOCK] Core dev and Blockstream employee tells bitcoin users to use fiat! on: June 03, 2017, 12:05:25 PM
until you understand what consensus is. because its not about miners. its about nodes and miners in a symbiotic relationship. so telling miners to do X while the nodes can only do Y is not consensus.

No problem with that

But it just proves that you don't see my point altogether. Basically, you say that nodes (which seem to be representing community) don't agree to what miners are allegedly screaming so loudly about (at least, that's what some dudes here are asserting). The latter necessarily means that what these miners are saying and claiming is not in fact as urgent as they want it to look. That pretty much proves that their real intents and purposes are different from what they claim (which is what my point essentially revolves around). As I said before, you can't have it both ways

nooo

the community is everyone.

its not just miners screaming for more tx capacity.. please stick with reality.

pools cant just make big blocks because user nodes are not set to accept them.
users nodes cant accept big blocks, because half a dozen devs wont get their head out the sand and code a clean version for users and pools
3426  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [SHOCK] Core dev and Blockstream employee tells bitcoin users to use fiat! on: June 03, 2017, 11:58:38 AM
LOL

the bait of the 'cheap segwit'

2015 - blockstream: WE promise you 75% discount
... blockstream remove fee control mechanisms, raise price 200x (2000%)
2018 - blockstream: WE promised you 75% discount, but never promised you 75% cheaper than 2015's prices

3427  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [SHOCK] Core dev and Blockstream employee tells bitcoin users to use fiat! on: June 03, 2017, 10:50:46 AM
And so what?

You already said that the community had voiced the problem. You didn't say that someone from that community complained about something (which wouldn't count as a "majority report"). As to me, that pretty much counts as consensus. Basically, the community tells miners that they should fix the problem and they already have their agreement. Other than that, you still ignore my major point, i.e. if there is a real problem as severe as some claim here (a question of life and death, so to speak), there shouldn't be any issues with reaching the consensus you talk about so much

there is a problem..
there have now been 3.. yes THREE 'agreements' of a consensus... but then the blockstreamist cartel go and rip up that agreement.

also
your obsessed about miners!!
until you understand what consensus is. because its not about miners. its about nodes and miners in a symbiotic relationship. so telling miners to do X while the nodes can only do Y is not consensus.
3428  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [SHOCK] Core dev and Blockstream employee tells bitcoin users to use fiat! on: June 03, 2017, 10:44:25 AM
Did any of you even read the comment you are supposedly outraged over?

Quote
Then use fiat. Pretty sure they'll charge you more than 0.5% for the same service.

Someone complains about the fee their wallet is assessing for a 71 input transaction-- one as large as 40 or so median sized transactions.

Luke suggests that they'd get charged more if they used fiat instead.

You can happily debate if Luke is write or wrong there (esp. if you consider the value preservation of the currency... Tongue ), but it's incorrect to say that he's just telling someone to use fiat.


Gmaxwell your the one that removed many of the fee controls.. so shut up and go make some new fee priority formulae's instead of the blockstream mantra 'just pay more or go play with fiat'

in the UK i can wire transfer money to family at NO cost!! and guess what else they receive it in seconds.
i can access funds at an ATM at NO cost!!
i can buy stuff at a grocery store at no transaction fee cost!!

yep. people buying bitcoin via localbitcoins wire transfer are not being charged "0.5%" by banks in the UK. so get your head out the sand stop trying to make bitcoin become fiat. and make bitcoin better than fiat
3429  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [SHOCK] Core dev and Blockstream employee tells bitcoin users to use fiat! on: June 03, 2017, 10:12:58 AM
community voices a problem.. blockstream solution: cut off tongues until no problems can be voiced. then announce that all problems must have been solved due to no one voicing problems anymore

devs should be coming up with solutions to problems not fairy tale hopes of solutions with promises of dreams coming true if everyone just goes to sleep for a couple years

Okay, community voices a problem, miners can solve the problem, as simple as it gets. So what the fuck are you talking about consensus here? And whose consensus miners need, that of developers or that of community after all? Make up you mind finally. If it is community, then you can't possibly say something like "community voices a problem" since that essentially means they are giving miners their consent to fork Bitcoin while the latter don't do anything. Or should I thus conclude that this is not what miners actually want?

And they in fact don't want to solve the problem voiced by community?

you dont understand consensus

consensus is about making BITCOIN grow in a way the community can unite around..

your posts about miners do x.. is just "well miners can just F**K off and go play in another sandbox"
thats not a community growth.. thats tribal conflict.

native indian: 'you no like chief maxwell, go move herd of horses to other side of mountain'
3430  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Russia Reveals Plans To Make Its Own National Cryptocurrency on: June 03, 2017, 10:02:41 AM
They understand everything

And they are not really going to create any government backed coprocoin. These are just words, empty words, which lost their meaning long ago. Mark Twain said it over 100 years ago that you shouldn't believe anything of what you hear (and half of what you see). The Russian economy is stagnating at best now (even according to official reports), and Putin's regime (or should I rather say clique?) consisting mostly of oligarchs should get themselves busy with solving more mundane issues that the country is going to face in the nearest future (and is already facing). The best they can do is just go away

seems you may not know much of russia.
you do know russia has many trade deals with the west.
yep
you can get iphones, computers, cars, kids toys,
yep kids in russia are playing with 'fidget spinners' (current western craze), hoverboards, and everything else the west plays with
yep russia has mcdonalds, KFC and many other western food outlets
if you think america hates russia, your wrong.. america is actually paying russia to send astronauts into space (taxi to international space station)

i find it strange how people compare russia to north korea. i guess it may be due to the fox news hypnotism and reddit regurgitation of fud

but with all that said. thinking that many countries governments wont bother using blockchain, is like the titanic thinking the iceburg wont do any damage.

its better to know the real situation, than to pretend there is not a problem. especially bad when you see people hide a problem using quotes of people who have not been alive for the last few years, decades, century and them taking such quotes out of context.

mark twains context is. dont take things on face value.. do your own research beyond what you see or hear

if you really want to do some research into what governments are doing in regards to blockchain.. here is a key word to start your research 'hyperledger'

have a nice day
3431  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [SHOCK] Core dev and Blockstream employee tells bitcoin users to use fiat! on: June 03, 2017, 09:41:52 AM
This is something I am worried about, if this continues and there is no suitable direction, the bitcoin may be left behind, and the other altcoin throne. Currently, bitcoin is in the development process, it should not get into any trouble. Conversely, altcoin is growing so quickly, it surprised me.

firstly, dont worry about price.. or market cap drama. thats all just ups and downs that will always occur, anyone can make an alt with 5 trillion coins premined, sell 1 coin on an exchange for just $1 and cause that altcoin to get a $5trillion market cap.

devs can be ass-hats.. the sooner they change their ways the better. i just wish blockstream would hurry up and jump ship to hyper ledger so the real bitcoin passionate devs can get on with improving bitcoin without the puppet strings holding them up

what does concern most and can significantly change the paradigm is if bitpay/coinbase switched their merchant tools from bitcoin to something else.. which many of the DCG cartel are thinking litecoin would be the option if it came down to it.

in short if you can no longer buy real world items from the thousands of merchants that accept bitcoin currently, because it all switched over to another coin.. then bitcoin will get affected
3432  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Russia Reveals Plans To Make Its Own National Cryptocurrency on: June 03, 2017, 09:20:43 AM
ok.. guess some people need to check sources
in short nothing new.

1. aurora coin was not government created it was citizen created and tried to get mainstream adoption..
2. russia and all other government based efforts to get into 'blockchain' are done via hyperledger.. yep that includes russia.

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/russias-biggest-bank-joins-hyperledger-blockchain-project/
3433  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [SHOCK] Core dev and Blockstream employee tells bitcoin users to use fiat! on: June 03, 2017, 08:55:33 AM
Why are you laying yourself out to evade addressing the dilemma I pointed out?

You can call that coin an altcoin or whatever, but this doesn't change anything. If things are as bad in respect to blocksizes as miners are claiming them to be (not actually miners but some dudes here that are pretending that they are), then, as I said, forking Bitcoin (making an altcoin, in your speak) would be inevitable, and it would be welcomed by virtually anyone (since the situation was dire and no longer tolerable or acceptable). If it is in fact "evitable", then the miners are lying, or the dudes who are telling that the miners "have been screaming for years about the blocksize increase" are lying. So who is lying here?

i am not evading anything.
you are evading the drama of the last 2 years+
all the REKT campaigns by the blockstream fanboys.
the censorship army

all the crap to surpress the need and desires of many for more tx capacity onchain(without the cludgy half baked promises of blockstream devs)

EG
community voices a problem.. blockstream solution: cut off tongues until no problems can be voiced. then announce that all problems must have been solved due to no one voicing problems anymore

devs should be coming up with solutions to problems not fairy tale hopes of solutions with promises of dreams coming true if everyone just goes to sleep for a couple years
3434  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What do we call Bip148 if it breaks away from the network and its the minority. on: June 03, 2017, 01:39:09 AM
call it the BS coin

abbreviation of
BlockStream or Barry Silbert..(they are the same group after all)
after all they want it, they own it they can have their minority coin
3435  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BIP148 has been deployed by slushpool on: June 03, 2017, 01:19:49 AM
25hashcoin probably IS franky1. That guy (or service/business) has many alt accounts to try and influence people here.

nah i am me and me alone. i dont need multiple accounts.

i dont need to make new accounts to speak my mind. because i do not fear what people say about me.
insults are like whistles in the wind. but ignorance from others simply because they "trust" a business rather than code. really need to learn to grasp what is more important.

it might be worth you spending more time reading code and documentation rather than the social reddit fud drama of scripting sheep to sleep

your first post
It's sad that so many bitcoiners are dumb enough to support B(F)U Chinacoin.
just 2 months ago reveals:
1. your not a newbie to bitcoin
2. you love using the reddit buzzwords(scripts)

so its obvious you have more than one account
3436  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BREAKING: Bitcoin Miners Reach Scaling Agreement for SegWit Upgrade + 2MB Blocks on: June 03, 2017, 01:05:14 AM
Come August 1, franky's going to need to find a new line of work. :-)

come august first you can have your minority coin.

seems all you care about is double spending and wanting splits. so go be happy in fiat land when you cash out. its people like you that would happily ruin bitcoin for a quick opportunity to double your coin even if the value (tech) becomes less unique.

some people have more smarts to care about bitcoins longevity. not the temporary drama.

P.S no one pays me for my opinion. im self sustainable thanks to knowing more than most and being in earlier than most.

but have a nice cashout day when you fools get the split you been begging for that dosnt offer you the promises sold to you
3437  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [SHOCK] Core dev and Blockstream employee tells bitcoin users to use fiat! on: June 02, 2017, 08:14:36 PM
Then you should understand what it comes down to

If you fail somehow, I can help. It pretty much means that those miners allegedly screaming about larger blocks for so many years are outright liars. If there were real necessity in larger blocks (as Larger Blocks advocates seem to claim), forking Bitcoin would be an inevitable outcome greeted and welcomed by virtually everyone (and his fucking dog). But given that miners are not going to fork Bitcoin any time soon, it proves as well that they are up to something else, something different from what they are so vocal about

pools changing the rles without consensus is just them making their own altcoin..

it seems you dont understand consensus..
pools cannot control consensus.
pools can only either stick to consensus or make an altcoin..

devs refuse to make an implemntation for pools, users to have a viable choice to change consensus..
with all the REKT campaigns the tower guarding of bips and even all the moderation of reddit and the tech discussion topic of this forum.. trying to get any change that is not blockstream sanctioned is futile

i actually hope BLOCKSTREAM devs jump over to litecoin. and then the independant BITCOIN devs remain with bitcoin and then open transparent and no barrier changes can happen again.

its gone down hill since 2014

(downhill as in real things that matter, code, control, ethos, direction) - dont reply simply about "price upwards"
3438  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [SHOCK] Core dev and Blockstream employee tells bitcoin users to use fiat! on: June 02, 2017, 07:45:45 PM
Some guy said something!!!! OMG, this must be huge!!!?  Huh
 Grin

"some guy"
the Bips tower guard who refuses entry to anything not friendly with king blockstream tell you if you dont like the direction king blockstream is going use fiat....

shows how controlled bitcoin is.
bitcoin meant to have no barriers of entry and if the bips tower guard is so arrogant to not want opposition. then he should not be the guard.

replace him
get someone else in control of the bips that wont shut down idea's purely because they do not lead to the blockstream emerald city via their roadmap


imagine it this way.
1990's microsoft make word '95. someone suggests a new feature.. and bill gates shouts if you dont like it my way then go use a marker pen...
 microsoft word would hav not grown to be as useful as it is now. it would have just been notepad
3439  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [SHOCK] Core dev and Blockstream employee tells bitcoin users to use fiat! on: June 02, 2017, 07:36:57 PM

Now try to address the dilemma I stated

If increasing block size is so urgent as you say, why miners don't just hard fork Bitcoin (given their mining monopoly)?

because consensus (real consensus) not the reddit propaganda crap the fudsters script... REAL consensus doesnt work by pools simply making bigger blocks.
those bigger blocks would get rejected in 3 seconds
3440  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [SHOCK] Core dev and Blockstream employee tells bitcoin users to use fiat! on: June 02, 2017, 06:45:32 PM
Until a few months ago, no one talked about satoshis per byte. For years now transactions have been so cheap that you could have addresses with lots of tiny inputs, and it would still cost only 0.0001 or 0.00005 BTC to send. Since I was just a user sitting behind the driving wheel, clueless as to what an alternator or a distributor was, I paid absolutely no attention to the size amounts coming into addresses. Now suddenly, the truth comes forward, and it can now cost tens of dollars to move out smallish amount of bitcoin in an address. It can also cost a still reasonable amount, if you only have one input in an address that you're  spending.

Anyway, now we all know better, Satoshis/byte is a real world thing now, and smallish amounts of BTC will be sent less and less frequently, sending bitcoin on chain will not be for tiny amounts anymore, fees will be more reasonable once this turnover of small inputs finishes, and we'll all adjust our usage habits.

everything you said is due to CORE removing many fee control mechanisms.
the cost can actually be eleviated by bringing in a NEW 'priority fee formulae'

which the fee rises not by how much you spend. but more so how soon you want it confirmed.
take this one as an example

here is one example - not perfect. but think about it
imagine that we decided its acceptable that people should have a way to get priority if they have a lean tx and signal that they only want to spend funds once a day. (reasonable expectation)
where if they want to spend more often costs rise, if they want bloated tx, costs rise..
obviously those wanting to spend many times a day can benefit from LN

which then allows those that just pay their rent once a month or buys groceries every couple days to be ok using onchain bitcoin.. and where the costs of trying to spam the network (every block) becomes expensive where by they would be better off using LN. (for things like faucet raiding/day trading every 1-10 minutes)

so lets think about a priority fee thats not about rich vs poor(like the old one was) but about reducing respend spam and bloat.

lets imagine we actually use the tx age combined with CLTV to signal the network that a user is willing to add some maturity time if their tx age is under a day, to signal they want it confirmed but allowing themselves to be locked out of spending again for an average of 24 hours.(thats what CLTV does) to win lower fee

and where the bloat of the tx vs the blocksize has some impact too... rather than the old formulae with was more about the value of the tx


as you can see its not about tx value. its about bloat and age.
this way
those not wanting to spend more than once a day and dont bloat the blocks get preferential treatment onchain ($0.01).
if you are willing to wait a day but your taking up 1% of the blockspace. you pay more ($0.44)
if you want to be a spammer spending every block. you pay the price($1.44)
and if you want to be a total ass-hat and be both bloated and respending EVERY BLOCK you pay the ultimate price($63.72)

note this is not perfect. but think about it
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