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461  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: VISA vs Lightning Network on: March 08, 2019, 11:40:27 AM
So for less than $200, you should be up and running accepting LN payments in your store..

wait... so for 4 years people been screaming that bitcoin is broke and cant scale because its too complicated and expensive to run 1 program on a pc

but now there is a solution involving running 3 programs.. but funnily one of which is the one that was supposedly too big to run.
and it just costs $200

OMG shocking.
462  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is a scam based on language manipulation on: March 08, 2019, 10:55:48 AM
"something"
lol

mind blowing knowledge of economics "something"

...
so you obviously accept fiat is just digits in a database. thus you have moved away from the database debate.

so you now want to debate the rules/reason/utility for the creation.
fiat is contract rules that are flimsy, uncontrolled and can cause distress for those involved. bitcoin is consensus rules of happy agreement without threat or flimsy rationale..

....
fiat is based on debt. where it costs NOTHING to create fiat debt. but leaves the recipient being informed that they must do things after receiving it 'or else'. though the threat is only feared by those that dont know better about ways to avoid/evade the threat.

however bitcoin has a creation cost. and it does not demand the recipient to do things after receipt 'or else'. it offers freedom and oppertunity

meaning people that desire an economy without threat/slavery/servitude can give goods and services to bitcoin knowing once they have bitcoin they have freedom...

or they can be given fiat requiring headaches to get it, and then threats after getting it.

...
but with that said. to simplify it the consensus rules of creating bitcoin and the rules of creating fiat. are rules. but bitcoins rules and method and results are better than fiat
463  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is a scam based on language manipulation on: March 08, 2019, 07:37:46 AM
When a bank grants a loan, the loan contract is shown both, as an increase in bank’s assets because the bank now has an additional claim on borrowers, and as a positive entry on the liability side of the bank’s balance sheet, because fiat money owners now have an additional claim on the bank. Given the fact that a claim is property in the fullest sense of that term, that it has its own value, and it may be sold, transferred, mortgaged, and inherited, it follows that dollars, euros or pounds are actual things with intrinsic value.
fiat money is as you said in previous posts. just an entry in a database.
the contract terms are not saved to that bank database. fiat money is just digits in a database

the rules of granting a loan are the rules of decision of those maintaining the databas. much like the bitcoins consensus protocol decides which block is acceptable

what happens with the units of account of a database are not shown in the database. again the consensus of a bank. the consensus protocol of bitcoin and the humans involved decide the value and reason to move the unit of account from one entity to another

bitcoin however is actually better than the banks fiat database because bitcoin can define rules in code rather than relying on paper/human thought. EG smart contracts can set utility/function to the units of account. even the very simple things such as a block reward remains locked(maturing) for 100 further blocks ahead of it before being spendable. thus making bitcoins unit of account more than just an entry in a database. but something of function/utility.

bitcoin too can do all the function of fiat. it can be transfered, the reason for the transfer can be for the same human decision as fiat, for being sold against products and services, inheritance. and yes even used to pay for a house. it can be escrowed and contracts set up that people then need to pay with other financial sources to repay the bitcoin payment of the house. just like mortgages

What that means in practice is that borrowers have two options

loan agreements are just protocol rules. much like bitcoin consensus rules. but its funny how your now diverting away from talking about the fiat itself and now talking about rules of human decision outside the context of the unit of account database

And that’s the beauty of fiat money. Since it comes from debt, and debt is a legally enforceable liability that must be settled, the demand for dollars, euros or pounds will exist as long as this type of money exists. In other words, even if people completely abandon fiat money as means of exchange, the borrowers are still forced to use it until all their debt is paid off,
no they are not forced to use it until all their debt is paid off
if i have british debt. i can simply get on a plane. go to america and use dollars and just leave the british debt.simple choose never to touch a pound ever again
debts can be written off
i can live on bitcoin, euro or any other currency. i can even live like a hermit and forrage for food. or do manual labour in exchang for barter for food/lodgings and avoid all fiat currency all together
this is because the fiat database unit of account is as you say just numbers on a database

since non-acceptance of fiat money won’t make borrowers’ obligations go away. That means that ultimately, fiat money will provide its owners with actual things in the form of goods, services or property of borrowers, just like the gold certificates provided their owners with actual gold. To put it another way, in the past, fiat money was backed by gold, today, it is backed by the assets of the banks and by land, cars, homes and other property of the borrowers.

So no, loans are not just entries into a bank database. Loans are both rights and obligations. Bitcoin on the other hand is just entry into a database, i.e. - NOTHING.
a blockreward is just an entry in a database. but the bitcoin consensus rules are the rights and obligations that make that blockreward 'granted' to exist. learn about consensus rules and orphans/rejects. it might surprise you
EG a block reward may only exist if it shows it has performed a minimum task and met rules. only blocks meting thos obligations get the right to have a blockrward granted to exist.

same as fiat is just an entry in a database. but the banker rules are the rights and obligations that make that fiat 'granted' to exist

atleast grasp the basics of economy
464  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: VISA vs Lightning Network on: March 07, 2019, 05:06:37 PM
Even Samson Mow now says that Bitcoin should not be used for payments, and there's questionable utility surrounding LN. Even if it works well, it's YEARS away from this stage. I cannot recommend any merchant to adopt Bitcoin right now, at least not in good faith.

samson mow also said segwit is great. he was even selling hats to promote his controversial method to force segwit into activation..
but once activated, samson mows then company BTCC were not using segwit addresses for their coin rewards. which just goes to show they didnt really trust segwit tx formats for their own income
465  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Solo Miner vs Mining Pool on: March 07, 2019, 04:45:53 PM
technically. from a network data view. everyone with an asic is solo mining.
there can only be one asic with the ultimate block solution to a block at any one time.

..
its later when the reward gets spent by the winner(human decision), how they decide to spend it. EG if they had help from multiple people in a syndicate(pool) or if they had thousands of asics themselves.. is up to them how they spend/split the reward.

but as i said from the network view there can only be one correct block solution for a particular block that gets accepted into the networks chain. thus only one ASIC ultimately won it.
466  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin and Brexit on: March 07, 2019, 04:28:12 PM
Holistically there is likely to be a positive shift inline with speculation which definitely will have effect in the soar price of Bitcoin but never mind "not bull-run", the advent of Brexit will pave ways for the crypto-world.  

i see a 'calve' run... (temporary young bull).
but not a trigger for a long term bull run
but now we are just speculating. which is just drama.

if the calve run spikes too quick. expect a cub run (young bear) correction
467  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin and Brexit on: March 07, 2019, 04:20:43 PM
Well it might have some fearful for a second but it should long term lead to a stronger pound but short term there should be a spike in hedgers.

im british..
stronger pound, weaker pound, we will survive

if £1 buys E1.17 today... but only gets E1 next month.
then it will cost us more to buy euro goods....... flip side we start manufacturing our own
which europeans will then buy because its cheaper for them

EG imagine a punnet of fruit. costs E1.17 (£1)
if we started growing our own for £1 we are not having to buy euro fruit at £1.17(e1.17)
europeans can then buy english fruit for E1 instead of buying euro fruit at E1.17

if the forex went the other way wher £1 moved to e1.30. we can buy euro fruit at e1.17(£0.83)

...
as for the fear of no trade.. thats just foolish media scare.
america, russia, india, asia are not euro. but they trade with euro fine.. so ofcourse the UK will trade with europe. we dont need to be euro to trade with them. we just do things how america/asia do it.
468  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin and Brexit on: March 07, 2019, 03:59:37 PM
there was some speculative drama mid 2016. but not anything sustainable/impactful
so always expect speculative drama, but never expect to know how much, how long it will be.

seeing a price change historically (in hindsight) is meaningless.. its just a line on a chart.
so unless your online and ready to trade and made the right judgement call at the right time (gamble) you might make some
short quick profit. or you might make a mistake and end up on the bad side.

most of the time the speculative drama is over before people are even ready to benefit from it. so most dont even try no more.

so no guarantee either way.
most smart people prefer to take 1% steadily each day (365% a year) instead of hoard and hope for the one day they time a one time gamble perfectly that might gain them 2%-200% in on go
469  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is a scam based on language manipulation on: March 07, 2019, 03:08:57 PM
For. e.g. fiat money is created when a bank grants a loan i.e. SOMETHING, which is why paying someone with fiat money is actually the transfer of rights derived from bank loans. That is why fiat money fits the definition of payment — SOMETHING (rights recorded in the banking system) is transferred from one person to another.

you say FIAT is real because its something.. you say its something because a bank grants a loan to exist.
then by saying such, your also saying bitcoin is real because its something. the blockchain and people validating it say its something because they grant the block reward to exist

EG
a orphaned block/rejected block is not something. the community reject such blocks. and so orphaned blocks are not something.
the same as rejected loan agreements is not something

you yourself then countered yourself by saying fiat is not something by initially saying
If we start from a simple and undeniable fact that SOMETHING cannot appear or despair by changing entries in a database,
then it is obvious that so called Block Reward, which is just an algorithmic change of entry in a database(blockchain) — from 0 to 50 initially, is actually the creation of NOTHING or nothingness.
bank loans are exactly the same. changing entries in a database. thas all a bank loan is....
granting a bank loan is based on meeting a rule threshold for acceptance

so if you think bank fiatloans are something. then bitcoin rewards are something too. as those that grant/accept a block, agree it is acceptable and meets the accepted threshold to allowed to be created


But people did something strange — they gave a fancy name to this nothingness — Bitcoin. So, a mere change of entry in a database is given a name, which is in itself a bizarre thing to do. But anyhow, here is where the language manipulation kicks in. Changing entries is obviously just a database management and it belongs to the field of informatics. But what people did is they took the definition of "payment" - which belongs to the field of economy, and they copy/pasted that definition next to the phrase — "change of entry in a database". This created the illusion that when you change entry in a database(blockchain) you are actually transferring SOMETHING to another person, i.e. that you are paying. But payment is transfer of SOMETHING (rights, services or goods) from one person to another.
the payment is not simply changing a entry. its having the entry which can only be changed by a certain entity giving permission for another entity to have it. this is about ownership, permission, and change of controller/ownership/permission

..
now you understand that FIAT and bitcoin in respect of data is the same. what you have to realise is the VALUE of that data is decided by those that have control/permission to change the data from one entity to another.

take for instance, bitcoin. people know the bottomline value of bitcoin (the lowest value they would dare swap the control/permission of the entry) is based on the creation/acquisition cost of that. so if it costs $43k of electric and ASIC hardware to create a block with a reward entry of 12.5. then those with permission to change who gets to has control/permission of the 12.5 entry wont swap such permission below cost.
the receiver wont accept the 12.5 entry for $43k if they did not think it was worth that much effort/cost

this is where the markets develop. where people start to display their thinking of what the value should be for the entries they want to send and receive.
and this is where bitcoin has more benefits than FIAT.
because there is an underlying cost for its creation/acquisition (asic mining)

yes there is speculation. which is where ABOVE the underlying value(bottomline cost) that people speculate that future or utility  premium to add on to the value. but the underlying cost/value still has relevance.
people get to a point where they would see that bitcoin wont just disappear instantly. thus there is no point selling right down to zero as they can see it will still function the next day. so people instead set a bottom limit to how low they will refuse to sell below. which is mainly their acquisition/creation cost(buying/mining cost)

FIAT has a more flimsier less set in stone underlying value. U.S government for instance try to form a underlying value of things such as $7.50 is the minimum value for an hour of sweat labour (minimum wage laws)
470  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How to Get Rich Quick - Bitcoin on: March 07, 2019, 12:36:14 PM
lol, that bank of dave guy
i remember watching tv shows with him in years ago and was like, his credit union was an ok business model but the guy.. well he wasnt going far enough into the opportunities around him.

i a few years back was thinking of getting involved and expanding his credit union into many towns. but just felt he wasnt quite hitting the mark. but glad to see he is evolving

good to see he is expanding, but feel he is more of an average joe that just happen to have grasped a good business model. rather than a well prepped decision making guy thats well researched to have a structure of a great business model
471  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: three important elements on: March 07, 2019, 12:10:52 PM
the main thing that makes blockchain a working success is a good consensus protocol
it doesnt matter if the ledger is decentralised or distributed. its the security of the data from manipulation that counts, which is about the consensus integrity mechanism

having a good consensus protocol means the ledger can be distributed publicly or privately without need of trust.
the better the consensus model the more the ledger can be distributed without a controller deciding. thus distribution becomes decentralisation (2 things mean different things dependant on the consensus mechanism)

as for 'cash unit' well thats just a incentive to make those involved get financial gain for working collectively and in harmony like a symbiotic relationship of independence. that way they can then spend value as the gift for such.. but its not essential to have a cash unit as part of a blockchain.

many businesses think just having access to data is an incentive. so by not playing by the symbiotic relationship of consensus. they can be thrown out of having access.
472  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Accounting fro Crypto on: March 07, 2019, 11:51:39 AM
FIAT will not dissapear.
governments will change how their FIAT bank databases store their units of account(balance) but governments will still want a currency they will control. there will be laws such as tax, minimum wage, court fines, debt and treasure laws to keep their currency relevant.

accountants LOVE new currencies. as it means average joe has to do
maths of converting value between currencies for tax calculations, rightoffs etc
understanding which currency laws apply to which currency/jurisdiction
meaning most average joe employ an accountant to do that.

there has been an increasing need for accountants proficient in knowing about crypto.

what crypto will decrease is auditors and IT security personnel. as there wont be as much need to maintain a database as it is self maintaining and the auditors wont be needed. EG less need to care about if someone is 'creating' bank balance illegally, as crypto wont allow it by default. less need to audit the ledger to ensure a CEO isnt syphoning funds as it will be clear where funds are going

there has been less need of auditors proficient in knowing about crypto. simply because companys can just display their public keys to show their holdings
473  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin lightning torch reaches Iran on: March 07, 2019, 10:11:03 AM
LIGHTNING is NOT bitcoin based

lightning is a separate network.
lightning did not change to become bitcoin compatible.
in fact bitcoin had to change to become lightning compatible

lightning is not even a system that is tethered/locked to only bitcoin. it offers nothing unique to only bitcoin. lightning allows other coins to use it.

the only purpose to continue promote lightning as a 'bitcoin' experiment is to give corporate guys some 'bitcoin buzzword fame' by linking the separate non blockchain network to a flimsy reason to use the word "bitcoin" as much as possible in the hopes of promoting it

bitcoin gets locked on the bitcoin network.
after that people are then playing with 12 decimal PEGGED tokens, which due to lack of confirmation when payment is made end up being IOU's until the hope that finally th pegged token is then aggregated and used to crate a bitcoin broadcasted transaction that actually gets into a block(if you write a cheque. is the IOU paid at the signing, or when the cheque clears and the account is settled)
474  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: VISA vs Lightning Network on: March 07, 2019, 09:46:37 AM
    • 4) open a channel between the client and the store's node, fund it

    After these 4 steps, a store can generate a lightning invoice (QR) and let the customer scan and pay straight away... Works flawlessly, but still, i don't see my mother performing these steps...

    emphasis:
    works flawlessly when already having a channel between client and store node is funded and both online.

    however many stores/merchants wont want to have a permanent open direct always online connections with millions of users
    (DDos risk, hacking, other funding issues on store/merchants side(EG paying all close channel fee's for millions of users))

    so then routing/hubs/hops becomes a concept. which is less than flawless.
    recently fold done a 'pizza for LN' and showed only a 10% success rate. (1500 transactions, only 150 successes)[/list]
    475  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Mining Giant Bitmain Posts $500 Million Loss in IPO Financial Filing on: March 07, 2019, 09:25:30 AM
    phillipma1957 has already illustrated that some miners, probably the most profitable and the most efficient react, and that Bitcoin mining is a business of who reacts quickly.

    you have your opinion but you need research

    funny part is if you are going to quote a source for your opinion, atleast do your checks and research
    here;

    'we had a hash spike then a price spike'
    HASH... THEN... PRICE

    also you say
    "bitcoin mining is a business of who reacts quickly"

    1. prices move by the minute. miners cannot PHYSICALLY in the real world get ASIC deliveries, change electric supply contracts, set new rigs up by the minute

    2. the 'reactors' or the ones that pool jump to the most profitable coins of the minute. as that chart shows (42exa-44exa) are not even 5% of the network. these are the HOBBY miners.. they pool hop. they cannot stay on bitcoin and provide sustainable support for bottomline value as they are not the cheapest/smartest set of miners. that is why they pool hop.

    3. even logic will tell you when someone makes something. they are reluctant to sell it at a loss. smart miners have the mindset of this
    a. is bitcoin going to die and become nothing tomorrow - no
    b. is there a point at which it become foolish and futile to sell at a loss, rather than hold - yes
    c. at point X we will not sell at a loss
    where point X then becomes the bottomline value where the market shows everyone has decided they wont sell below.. that is th bitcoin markets LOW

    so ignore the speculative temporary unpredictable waves/bubble price of the ups/ATH. concentrate on the periodic LOW and you will see when hashpower rises the low(underlying value) rises.

    and please stop trying to assume things. DYOR
    the mining: market dynamics has nothing to do with predicting the next ATH. or the next PRICE of the next minute/day
    the mining:market dynamic plays out to show the underlying VALUE which when there is more hashrate the underlying value (bottomline support) goes up. (3.c.)
    476  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Galaxy s10 Blockchain Mode Won't Include Bitcoin? on: March 07, 2019, 08:59:53 AM
    samsung wont include ANY blockchain
    samsung wont include ANY cryptocurrency node software

    samsung never claimed to offer the opposite of above

    samsung WILL include a special encrypted memory chip allowing a special place to store sensative data such as private keys, and this means any private keys. including bitcoin

    instead of just reading the title of forums, or media stories. people should try researching.
    hint: samsung knox
    477  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What is the feature you think most important in a Blockchain System? on: March 06, 2019, 06:04:27 AM
    OP, I believe it's censorship-resistance, and true sovereign ownership.

    Censorship-resistance. We can send and receive value to, and from anyone around the globe freely, with no one having the capability to censor us.

    True sovereign ownership. We control our own private keys, with no one in the globe having the capability to take value away from us.

    Bitcoin is it's own financial system.

    so with mindset today about BITCOIN. can you now see why LN is not the thing that you should be hoping for. over promoting. salivating over with your chums
    LN = CO-SIGNED control
    LN = payments only made if people involved are online
    LN = locking up value into a timelock someone else prefers
    LN = having to get others agreement

    essentially LN does not fit the same priorities, ethos of bitcoin.
    478  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Mining Giant Bitmain Posts $500 Million Loss in IPO Financial Filing on: March 06, 2019, 05:38:04 AM
    as for how if there is a hash power rise. windfury cant see that it can cause the markt to follow.. its easy.

    when hashpower rises. it costs more to mine bitcoin.
    so people decide its not as cheap to buy coin OTC from miners. and instead buy on the market.

    buying on the market=price rise

    eli-5 enough?

    Wouldn't that be adding to more risk? I don't believe adding more hash power automatically causes price to increase. Price would depend on demand on Bitcoins.

    Wouldn't it be better for miners to observe what the market does before doing anything?  

    Or are the miners anticipating what the markets would do? Because that would make "price follow hashing power" have more sense.

    your not reading are you.

    PRICE is not the BOTTOMLINE VALUE

    again imagine the sea.. sealevel(bottomline value).. waves(active price)

     /\       /\
    /  \/\/\/  \
    mining does not indicate the diagonal lines.
    mining does indicate what level the horizontal line of bottomline value lays
    the price is speculative . goes up and down, its temporary drama. .. so forget ever trying to use mining to guess the next spike. forget trying to predict the next ATH

    use the mining market dynamic to know when the next LOW is the ultimate LOW value. the line which gets built up OVER TIME where the community eventually come to a point where even the last person willing to sell decides enough is enough its not worth selling for less. that LOW is the BOTTOMLINE value

    the first 3 quarters of 2018 the BOTTOMLINE VALUE was $5800.. even when the PRICE was volatile
    no one in the first 3 quarters of 2018 sold below $5800..

    in august/september i was HOPING that the 4th quarter would see a rise in hashrate which would cause a snowball effect where peoples costs go up so people would decide never to sell below $6k, and thus put pressure on the PRICE to steadily rise as a consequence(stay above $6k and not hit $5800 again))

    but the hashrate went down in october. pools closed(BTCC) so the remaining pools got an extra large slice (more coin share) pools were also selling off old gear(more coin) so they became happier to then sell below the $5800 as a consequence of less hashpower less costs thus able to profit at a lower sell price.

    again hashpower WILL NEVER be a indicator for the next ATH spike. so please stop trying to find a link between the hashrate and the hourly/daily PRICE vs mining.
    look at the LOW over a period of time

    if you do mining costs calculations.. and by this i mean the CHEAPEST mining costs. you will find the COST point of acquisition meaning you then know logically the lowest price people are rationally happy to sell down to before saying its not profitable to sell right now. and you will have your LOW bottomline market value.
    if you chart it out. you will see (DYOR)
    479  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin shortage - Is it Possible? on: March 06, 2019, 03:11:19 AM
    ok. lets view it another way.

    stats say people on average save up $24k fiat bank savings .. lets call it 21k for easy math
    bitcoin will have
    2100000000000000 sharable units

    now lets say a 'bit'(100sat) was $1
    $21,000,000,000,000.00
    thats $21 trillion
    or enough for:
    1,000,000,000 (1 billion people to put their whole life savings into bitcoin)
    or if they are smart investors that dont put al their eggs into one basket
    10,000,000,000(10 billion people putting in 10% of their life savings into bitcoin and obviously diversifying the other 90% into other assets)

    which. if this was done where $1 =100 sats(a bit). then 1btc=$1m

    480  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin shortage - Is it Possible? on: March 06, 2019, 02:09:39 AM
    I personally don’t think it would ever come to that point, since the value of bitcoin adjusts to satisfy the demand. I’d like to hear other opinions?

    do you know there are only 185,000 units of gold in the world.
    i know crazy right.
    185,000tonnes. thats it. end of

    but gold can be split up into kg, grams
    but gold can be split up into ounces

    bitcoin can be split up into 'bits' and 'satoshi's'

    its like pizza. you may order only 1 large pizza. but it is sliced up so that more than one person have have a piece of it
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