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6181  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin privacy on: June 12, 2022, 01:02:37 AM
exchanges are complied by regulation to flag money laundering..
..
coinjoin (mixing) by its very definition is laundering.. of course exchanges are going to flag coins seen as coming from mixing services.

its literally people stupidly doing laundering to hide whatever less petty criminal thing they might have wanted to hide. yep they actually getting themselves into more of a tight spot by trying to hide the origins. because the hiding event is the flag they hoped to avoid by hiding


..
anyways
i personally won the "anti-hero" title of the recent forum competition, and got some coin from different services as a prize. one being a mixing service. i have declared that prize as dead to me. because i cant see myself ever depositing it into a central exchange and getting a smooth experience.

and i am definitely not going to spend/sweep them into my other main wallet of legit stash. as that will taint the lot.

to me they are just coins i will use within the bitcoin network for giggles. totally separate from my main wallet. never intending to exchange them to fiat.

(well i dont need to swap for fiat anyway.. but i am not going to be using those prize funds anytime soon if i had to convert to cover any fiat spending needs)

in short. if you have coins that were mixed.. dont expect a smooth ride if your going to deposit them into an exchange.. because those coins are "laundered"
6182  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Act to defend privacy or resign ourselves to its loss? on: June 12, 2022, 12:43:03 AM
the way i see it.
governments dont care about the general adoption of bitcoin.. and who is using bitcoin and why, whilst people are using bitcoin.. but

they do care about the adoption of the gateways/exits/offramps to and from fiat(their jurisdiction)
of course they will protect the borders of their jurisdiction(converting to fiat)

which then requires the ask people at those borders why they are coming in and out of the FAIT border(exchanging) and where the sources of the funds are coming from

the main option/solution
its the scenario of:(analogy for those still too young to drink alcohol)
its the difference between having the age-check at a licenced alcohol retail store. vs a group of people passing around alcohol in a backyard barbeque or a private party.
changing the scenario from regularly buying alcohol from a licenced retailer, to only getting your alcohol from your friends/neighbours

methods to alleviate the use of these institutional gateways to/from fiat(gateways that are required to border guard the fiat jurisdiction), is by users doing more local face to face trades.

issues remain though. (alcohol trade analogy) if your caught selling alcohol privately and not following the alcohol rules.. you can be fined and banned from doing it again or worse

EG if doing to much fiat transactions on a personal account to complete strangers via wire transfer, the banks will want to question if you are a business and if that business is in facilitating 'money'(currency) transfers for customers.
(this is still a problem for the altnet and de-fi people running small exchange businesses locally but not declaring themselves as a business.. banks dont like a business being run on the terms of service of personal accounts)

again this requires to avoid central exchanges. and avoid the bank questioning wire transfers privately.. having to have local towns people do local face-to-face meetups/conventions/ community outreach, coffee/lunch parties to trade 'off the grid'

.. here is the thing though. (message to all forum readers the "you" is not just the topic creator but all readers)
bitcoin is not a business that can set up offices in YOUR town to do meetups.
it has no arms or legs to organise things for YOU, there is no central lobby group or central consultancy  team to fly into YOUR town and organise how a meet-up should work in YOUR town.. if YOU want off the grid transfers. YOU in YOUR area need to play YOUR part.

so find out all the people in YOUR area that are interested in bitcoin, find out who are the regular bitcoin buyers.. and who are the bitcoin holders regularly wanting to sell.. and let them meet up
to buy and sell between each other over a beer or coffee
6183  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: DISCUSSION: Bitcoin’s Integration with The ICP Blockchain on: June 11, 2022, 08:45:39 PM
in very short.. the central body can move funds without the individuals permission.. and do other risky things like change the contract rules at a whim..

.. summary.. not a good network to trust. in any way
It does seem to rely a lot on trust and the notion that the central body (as you call it) won't or can't abuse their position and simply steal all the coins from a container or the entire subnet that handles Bitcoin transactions. ICP is open-source, I would love to see the thoughts of someone who knows how to read code explain exactly who has access to what? Is there a central body or organization that knows all the private keys and who has the means to recover shares to reconstruct private keys?

tl:dr; version
there is what id describe a bit of multilevel marketing scheme going on involving the voting to create new subnets which involve locking funds up on bitcoin to an 'upstream manager' that creates the icp tokens for the downstream where the down stream then get to use/vote with.. and then hand out to users below them



waffle version:
i had a glance

trying to simplify it back into common tongue..
custodians,   agents and   users are my words to translate from the
canisters,     subnets and  icp users.. or the
masternode  nodes  and   litewallets generally used in blockchain definitions

in ICP there are layers, where its pretty much PoS using multisig(smart contracts)

when a bitcoin custodian creates a multisig and gets users to deposit and lock btc on the bitcoin network.
the custodian has the keys. not the users.
on the altnet. the custodian has agents(subnet managers[masternodes]) that it agrees with the custodian to have a key each of the ICP reserve token address.
imagine there are 2 subnets(for easy explanation)
imagine there are 3 agents per subnet(for easy explanation)
(6 agents total)
imagine 1btc was deposited and locked (exchange/peg rate currently 1btc=450k icp

inshort (master reserve(the initial pegging from bitcoin locks))
icpcustodian 450,000icp -> icpsubnet1 225,000icp
                                        icpsubnet2 225,000icp
signed: agent1, agent2.., .., agent6
(note custodian has all 6 keys, he didnt sign this time. but has keys to do so)

the ICPsubnet1 utxo address is another multisig created by custodian where it gives individual keys (1 per agent) to the 3 agents that will manage /launch the subnet

within this the agents can use the reserve tx above's UTXO of the ICPsubnet they want to manage. to create a new tx which will be deemed as the [premine genesis] of the subnet blockchain they want to manage/open/initiate

inshort (subnet1 reserve)
icpsubnet1 225,000icp -> icpagent1 75000icp
                                      icpagent2 75000icp
                                      icpagent3 75000icp
signed: agent1, agent2, agent3 (note custodian has all 3 keys, agents ahve 1 each and users have none)

this altnet tx is the genesis transaction that starts the subnet1 blockchain

the agents. then can do whatever they please in their subnet. agents 123 are separated from the agents 456 as they are 2 distinct networks.. how they pay the users or what data is on the blockchain for users to use is upto the agents within that subnet.

users can buy or be handed down ICP from the agents. and then they can stake their ICP and become 'neurons' [PoS staker nodes] with voting power over what rules change or not by majority following a new software update or not to bring it into consensus or not by tallying the votes to activate the rules

.. if any agent or 'neuron' [masternode or node] messes up or the subnet breaks or something goes wrong. the premiss is that it doesnt matter because the custodian or the other agents of the other subnets just invalidate the bad agent/broke subnet from being allowed to change the subnet1 utxo value inside the master reserve top transaction(the first 'inshort" above)

anyone can get a bitcoin deposit address to lock funds up(from the network(custodian)) and then create their own subnet with a group of people to help manage it
they are not the custodian. they are sub-custodians(which i describe as agents(subnet managers)
those agents subnet managers offer voting rights and such to users at the layers below them within their subnet blockchain they design and adapt

the subnets and subnets of subnets are kind of like a multilevel marketing scheme. where by if a downstream recruit doesnt meet targets or follow the upstream managers rules, they are just ignored and the upstream managers just find a new recruit to add to their split of the pyramid/tree root
6184  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: An analysis on how Bitcoin gets to 1 billion users on: June 11, 2022, 07:38:41 PM
an average block does 1800tx, an average day would be 144 blocks
this allows for an average of ~260,000 transactions a day.

under people do one trade a day on bitcoin to be classed as "using bitcoin". only allows 260k people
are using bitcoin

under the assumption people hoard/lock funds and only do 2 trades a month thats 3.94m people
under the assumption people hoard/lock funds and only do 2 trades a year thats 47.3m people
under the assumption people hoard/lock funds and only do 2 trades per 22 years thats ~1billion people

.. i know the altnet girls will cry how using their network will help reach billions of people and trillions of transactions by not having 'people use the bitcoin network'. but to achieve this, without scaling BITCOIN(scaling the bitcoin network) means people have to hoard/lock funds up for 22 years to cater to 1 billion people hoarding btc while transacting in pegged value on altnets.

even if THEY pretend their altnet value is "bitcoin"(pfft(facepalm) would it truly be using bitcoin if you never move coin on the actual bitcoin network for 22 years

the only way to bring this down into the realms of actually still calling it "people using bitcoin". is to have people actually using bitcoin network... after all bitcoin never ever leave the bitcoin blockchain/network... rather then the delusions of the pegged altnets which wouldnt need monitoring/ using bitcoin network for 2 decades.. which pretend to be next gen/next level bitcoin(facepalm)

by this i mean.
if we assume hoarding/locks of 12 months instead of 22years. . then bitcoin transactions need to increase by 22  (~28mb blocks)
if we assume hoarding/locks of 1 month instead of 22years. . then bitcoin transactions need to increase by 22  (~343mb blocks)

this is not a call for massive leaps overnight.
this is not a call for needing to cater to 1billion users this year.

but we really need to stop thinking the solution is to avoid using bitcoin and moving everyone over to an alternative network for a couple decades. and instead we really need to think about SCALING BITCOIN

emphasis
SCALING: not leaps or huge jumps, just small step increases progressively over time
BITCOIN: by this i mean the bitcoin network, not altnets co-branding the name, or pretending to be next gen/level bitcoin

..
i hope even the altnet girls are enlightened to realise that their altnets cant even cater to 1 billion users right now without subjugating users to never touch the bitcoin network for 2 decades, thus scaling bitcoin is required
6185  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: An analysis on how Bitcoin gets to 1 billion users on: June 11, 2022, 11:43:07 AM
It also does not mention that technically bitcoin cannot accomodate 1 billion users to use it every day for their transactions without causing the network to increase fees and price out many users.

That's on L1. But 1 billion users on the Lightning network is doable. But that's not going to happen as long as there are multiple competing LN implementations competing against each other. There must be just one standards maker, and making another LN reference client won't help you with that because you will just end up with the N+1 problem (look it up on XKCD).

I propose the community will do a decentralized election process by means of running the LN client they prefer to be the reference body (this process will be significantly easier as Lightning Labs/lnd is already enveloped in scandals around its own implementation, and there are no other major competitors to c-lightning & lnd).

doesnt matter if LN is run but different dev teams on different protocols(separate sub-nets)
or there is a single LN... the problem is all the versions lf LN have major flaws..

the main being lack of consensus protocol (fails to solve byzantine generals problem)
the next being the actual paying of more people on a network
by which the three directions for LN are..
a. master hubs everyone has a channel with.. (avoiding routing)
b. users playing pass the parcel down a stream of users (using routing) where the more users on the network means more hops to go through to reach everyone
c. users require more channels for more potential destinations to have a more direct contact without as many hops.


each of these directions fall flat into the problem of value liquidity.
a. this scenario needs a master hub to have alot of value locked up to have liquidity in each of its channels to palm off to its customers
b. for every hop along a lengthy route they have to rely on each person along the route to have available balance and be online to service that payment. the more people in the network. the more distance between source and destinations, the more hops means the more chance of running into a roadblock
c. the more channels a user needs to open the more funds it needs to lock up (like the (a) hub problem, but where funds are locked on the user side) where the user becomes a hub. meaning if all they have invested/acquired of  crypto is like $800 worth. 2 channels is $400 per channel 16 channels is $50 a channel. which then limits how much they can spend at at given time to a destination available only on one channel

LN has many other flaws too. not just routing bottlenecks of liquidity issues of channels or the requirement of all parties involved in a payment needing to be online. or the requirement of middlemen to sign whereby they can just be assy and refuse, holding payments up/delaying 'success'/fail messages. or the fact that the more hops needed=more fee due to having to pay each hop. or the issue around having to map larger routing tables becomes a bloat of gossip the bigger the network gets and the more data required just to update. or the issues around centralisation of hubs or the dilution of spendable value if users had to have more channels.
.
but also that the settlement and punishment parts and the initial funding locks are not firmly ruled systems which are audited by the network to ensure compliance.. yep LN is not a consensus network and does not fulfil the byzantine generals problem
6186  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: DISCUSSION: Bitcoin’s Integration with The ICP Blockchain on: June 11, 2022, 10:59:33 AM
in short its multisig... but not where individuals hand in a public key to a central body or share their public key with the other individuals so they can all combine the public keys to create the multisg address but not reveal their private keys..
.. but instead where a central body creates the multiple keys and hands them out to individuals. whilst the central body keeps a copy of all the private keys incase some nodes go offline...

in very short.. the central body can move funds without the individuals permission.. and do other risky things like change the contract rules at a whim..

.. summary.. not a good network to trust. in any way


as for the feature of bridging networks. thats like 5+year old tech, there are many networks that are bridged to bitcoin, its not complicated to achieve.

its never actually sending bitcoins off the bitcoin network or making bitcoin talk to other networks. its simply locking bitcoin up in a manner which the forms trust that they wont move unintentionally. so that other networks can then reference that lock and use as a representation for creating new funky tokens/value representation in different transactions/contract/payment messages on different networks that do different functions not native to bitcoin
6187  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The average joe would never accept bitcoin as means of payment due to tx fees on: June 11, 2022, 10:41:12 AM
In addition to transaction fees and price volatility, the imposition of taxes by local governments for swap-to-fiat transactions on exchanges has discouraged them from adopting bitcoin. There is an additional fee for each item if someone wants to adopt bitcoin in their shop, because if they don't then I'm sure they will lose because of the tax obligations they have to bear.

thats where you need to look at what services are available in your area.
if its just a exchange order market as the only converters. then yes that business would be seen as being an investor of a currency and have to declare such

however if there is a payment processor (no public market orderbook) which offers shopping cart options, where the total price of sale includes the currency conversion commission which the customer pays the extra then that is declared the same way as having a shopify or other merchant tools platform like accepting credit cards. which is not treated as an investment in alternative currency.
EG as a customer when i buy something internationally my receipt/bank statement shows 2 lines. one for the sale and one for the currency conversion. thus the business isnt paying for conversion. but they receive the native fiat they want

many businesses operating internationally that have sites that accept different countries fiat use shopping cart/card processing services. where the exchange to the end recipients native fiat is done on the customer/service side and the end business just gets their native fiat thus avoids all the taxes and duties of international tax stuff.

fiat is fiat. and what becomes important is not the receipt of fiat. but what the service does that sent you that fiat.
in short its very difficult to explain to a tax office that a receipt of fiat from a crypto service is just payment for goods if that service is not a merchant tools service and instead only offers currency swaps/investments.

for instance
many businesses in the US get fiat from coinbase and from bitpay. roughly the same volume each week.. but because it comes from different services its treated differently for tax reasons

EG you personally could get $1k from a relative, $1k from your employer, $1k from a retailer, $1k from government social security, $1k from an exchange and $1k from a merchant tools site

the $1k from relative is treated as 'gift'/personal loan (no tax)
the $1k from employer is treated as 'income' (income taxed)
the $1k from retailer is treated as 'refund' (untaxed)
the $1k from social security is treated as 'social benefits' (untaxed)
the $1k from exchange is treated as 'investment' (capital gains taxed)
the $1k from merchant tools is treated as 'business sales income' (sales/vat taxed)

where they all have totally different tax categories, even when its the same value being received
6188  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Lightning Network Observer on: June 11, 2022, 12:07:33 AM
LN Finally crossed the  4,000 BTC threshold for the first time.

for the first time.. (treat next sentence as humour)
so you are predicting it will DROP and it might hit 4000  a second time, seems your not confident in future growth
6189  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The future of Bitcoin is set with the launch of Bitcoin academy in Brooklyn? on: June 10, 2022, 11:55:19 PM
In the grand scheme of things, it won't change much. You'd need thousands of Bitcoin academies across the world to improve Bitcoin education globally. And even then, it's not guaranteed to be a major success. It's not like there's a lot of people who want to learn about Bitcoin but can't - all the information is available on the Internet for free.

thats why i imagine the only way a academy can even try to be successful is if the classes were about actual skills and knowledge that can be used to gain employment whereby passing the class had either atleast a guaranteed job interview with a sponsoring employer, or the certificate of completing the course had some meaning to it because it actually means people know enough to do a job in the sector. then people might be willing to take the class.

a 'participation' medal is not as meaningful as a 'top of the class' in a skilled activity medal
6190  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Lightning Network Reaches Its All-Time High. on: June 10, 2022, 11:41:20 PM
in addition to the latest taproot upgrade.

taproot only makes those using taproot(instead of traditional multisg) cheaper

if people that do use multisig but have not pre depositied coins into a taproot format. they cannot use the discount

taproot does not make existing multisig cheaper nor normal single privkey formats cheaper

EG segwit did not make legacy formats cheaper.. !!
it just meant people spending in legacy at more cost to then deposit into segwit can later pay less. but requires people moving funds in the first place using traditional formats to make the move

segwit didnt even offer a discount. instead it threw legacy formats into a realm of premium costs by multiplying the size by a weight factor of 4

EG if train tickets at a station cost $10, but then the station master promised some special discount ticket.. and then when releasing the special ticket normal tickets became 4x more expensive.. and the special ticket was charged at normal rates .. where by the special ticket didnt offer any discount to the normal ticket holders. then its not really a discount to the promise the station master made to the ticket holders

.. here is another one for you
i want you to notice the near flatline in $ amount from 2009-2017.. and then.. watch it never return to the flat line after 2017
and while looking.. ask yourself.. what happened in 2017..what changed.. hmm.. (answer: segwit)
6191  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The average joe would never accept bitcoin as means of payment due to tx fees on: June 10, 2022, 11:18:27 PM
1. can you prove that all channel pegs are always, all, 100% backed by confirmed locked btc.
If I only choose to transact with people who provide me a digital signature that says they do, then yeah. I can prove that all channels are pegged with BTC. Some network, whose name's out my mind at the moment, does it using the channel_announcement message.

2. when it requires another party to sign.. are they really yours
If you can return to the chain without their permission, since you'll have had their digital signature beforehand, yeah, they're yours.

gonna laugh..

1. channel announce just tells you an ID..
     a. even bolts says that this ID can be a temp ID
     b. if using a phone* litewallets dont have the blockchain to compare it.
     c. need we forget that even turbo announces channels
     d. even the gossip protocol of building the routing map at your node side, does not include code to ensure all nodes and all channels listed on the routing map are checked against the blockchain.

oops. didnt any of your buddies that care so much about you tell you about these flaws.. aww

yes you might personally want to manually check using a different node to the phone wallet majority use*, but i dare you to try to find the page/option in most used wallets that list all the channels txids and show that they are all verified confirmed bitcoin transactions.. without having to manually check each one yourself via other means

*(no one carries their desktop to starbucks)

2. "had their digital signature before-hand"... you should have thought hard and long about how im going to debunk this
hint: how did you get their "beforehand signature".. oh yea they authorised it..
i love how you want to skip passed step 2 and only want to envision a scenario beginning at step 5 to not answer a step 2 question

so again if it requires someone elses signature it requires their authorisation..
stop using an example where after they authorised it that its (in your mind) permissionless and realise the authorisation/permission step before your dream begins

EG the initial deposit into the multisig address.. after the transfer in. but before the commitment signing.. .. yep you have risk. the funds cant go back to you unless they sign.
6192  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: "Change the Code, Not the Climate" FUD campaign coming next month on: June 10, 2022, 10:52:44 PM
Find the error: They want us to buy electric vehicles to save the planet, which will consume extreme amounts of electric energy, while Bitcoin mining destroys our planet consuming the same type of electric energy.

lets add some context too
              miles        battery         miles per
             capacity     cap KW           kw
leaf           150             40             3.75
e-golf        174             36             4.83
ionic          124             28             4.43
focus         115             33             3.48
bolt           238             60             3.97
tesla3        220             50             4.40
             average miles per kw:  4.14

(rounded pencil math for easy demo)
if an average car does ~20 miles a day(just journey to work). an average car uses ~5kw a day
1 asic uses 3kw an hour or 72kw a day.. meaning 1 asic compares to 15 cars

bitcoin network hashrate suggests ~1.5m asics world wide and reports suggest america is 33% of network
thus 500k asics in america

thus, drum roll
bitcoin US represents only 7.5million electric cars...

so if the US government are having electric problems and concerns with the equivalent of 7.5million cars worth of energy of a new tech..
just imagine when all american cars need to be electric.. yep all 289.5million registered cars are needing electric

yep the car industry will be a problem 36X bigger than bitcoin, and that was me being generous with my rounding so expect it to be more
(for the numeric knitpickers, actual decimal number is 36.75769152x)

if america is suffering "capacity issues" about not being able to provide renewable energy to industries like asic farms where they instead want asic farms unable to get renewables to shut down.. then imagine the problem multiplied 36 times when car owners want to get to work each day
6193  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BTC goes below 30k after US inflation rate reports on: June 10, 2022, 04:42:16 PM
bitcoins price is not the lowest its been in the last 14 days. so id say.. calm down..
and also zoom out of the hourly/minute charts..

no one can judge overall market sentiment of reactions to long term inflation results as being the cause of temporary minute/hourly price changes..

so dont be checking the per minute/hourly level charts trying to assign reason for all small movements and dont get emotional/concerned with the per minute/hourly movement

instead
look at the the quarterly charts and assign a bottom amount it ever reached. and then if it reaches the quarterly bottom again.. . then try to find reason.

6194  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin miners say NY ban will be ineffective and 'isolate' the state on: June 10, 2022, 03:21:45 PM
The land price in NY is one of the costliests in the world. So I doubt if NY houses any big miner. If they are forced out of NY, that will be blessing in disguise for the miners. They can simply move to Texas and probably expand their mining operations to a great extent.

here is a thought to expand peoples minds..

setting up 200 asics (29peta) only requires a 20foot shipping container.
having an empty parking lot with 20 shipping containers and access to the neighbourhood electrical junction box can allow for half an exahash..

these days it does not require warehouses and leases. instead just a plot of empty land or an unused carpark that previously could park under 50 cars is all thats needed to have a 0.5exahash farm.

the other advantages of mining these days is that being set up in shipping containers is that yes.. they can easily move if asked to... so its of no consequence either way..

they can set up within hours of a truck convoy in NY, run there for a few months. organise a better electric deal somewhere else for the next quarter, convoy to that location and run there for a few months. where they are not fixed to 1-10 year warehouse leases. instead they just pay the similar fee to what a truck pays to 'park' for a certain time in a truck stop kinda of scenario.

6195  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What is the future of bitcoin? Commodity, currency or smth else? on: June 10, 2022, 02:45:21 PM
your thinking short term.. widen your vision just a little bit.. dont be narrow minded

also when you say gold. in the final sentence of that paragraph.. you mention the market value (facepalm)..
forget the market price. stop and i mean this stop confusing the volatile market price of short term changes to be what is being discussed.

as you yourself said no one is able to mine bitcoin at GPU rates.. bitcoin value is AS YOU SAY(maybe you do finally understand something) that bitcoin is definitely not feasible to be valued below the GPU rates($0-$6)
so we both agree bitcoins value is not feasible to be $0.. right?

ok move forward a few steps.  and you will see the wide picture emerge that bitcoin value is not TODAYS price nor previous ATH.  but is instead a number far below anything anyone has bought or mined at for a long while

ill emphasise this..
alot has to go wrong and i mean alot, to bring the value back into range of the GPU rate.
its not something you will ever see happen over night nor over a fortnight nor over multiple months.

where even the changes of the last few days/weeks/months of price or hashrate cost of short term or difficulty has not even nudged against the bottomline i stated ($25k) for a LONG WHILE



anyway
back to the topic.

bitcoin is a currency by default as is pretty much anything. even sex can be used as a currency in relationships/nightclubs/social events

but bitcoin is more then that. its more then just an economic measure based off fiat. its a utility all of its own with features more easily useful that the fiat world.

in fiat if i wanted to set up a off shore account or a family trust fund. i usually need bank managers, lawyers and legal paperwork and paying fee's to those middlemen to authorise it.

in bitcoin i can self- create a multisig and fund it. and self-decide who to pass the keys too.. and its done. all set up at no cost, no headache and no legal requirements.

..
bitcoin can be used as a token. a visual representation of something else.
EG in schools it can be used as a 'gold star' system. where kids can earn gold stars(xsats) where at "parents evening"(parent,teacher conference) the teacher and parent can see how many sats the kid has earned. and compare it to other students to see if they are the good or bad kid of the class (all without putting a financial value to the sats, nor naming or shaming the least sat awarded kid publicly)..

there are many many more utilities not mentioned.
6196  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What is the future of bitcoin? Commodity, currency or smth else? on: June 10, 2022, 02:40:46 PM
This is what makes Bitcoin very unique, everyone is free to use it according to their needs...

Bitcoin as a currency or Bitcoin as a commodity asset, essentially Bitcoin is Bitcoin. I have received my customers' payments in Bitcoin several times (I sell women's accessories) and I also frequently trade in Bitcoin (on exchange). Bitcoin is both, cannot be separated.
FTFY

other examples i have seen.
some educational teachers have awarded students with allotments of sats depending on their exam results.
students have not price associated the reward but instead tallied the number of sats as their test score result to compare to other class mates

EG 500sat per % whereby if getting 98% means their address would show as being 49,000sat
which they all see the classes outputs of the teachers tx to see how many people got 100% by seeing how many people got the full 50,000sats. without any names associated with the scores.
thus transparent testing and result sharing without revealing personal information..

later on, these students can accumulate alot of sats the more exams they do. and when the graduate. they can, if they want sell/spend their scores. thus another advantage beyond transparent sharing of test results without identity association
6197  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What is the future of bitcoin? Commodity, currency or smth else? on: June 10, 2022, 02:23:03 PM
no one ever said the backed value is fixed forever..
even backed value changes,, just alot more slowly. because its alot more stable compared to price.

the whims of the daily price do not impact the bottomline value as quickly/easily/harshly as you pretend/think it does

anyway more examples of how other things have value and their variance
just like FIAT is backed by pretty much laws about taxes and wages, meaning backed by minimum wage value, which too is not fixed forever..

even in gold there is a variable bottom too..
the main cost for golds bottom is diesel. aswell as labour and that changes too..
the rise in diesel cost and the lack of labour during covid affected the bottomline.. for the cheapest region..

but that is a separate measure from the market price which speculated upto over double+ the bottomline

and in housing there is a variable bottom too..
the main cost for housing bottom is material and labour. and that changes too..
but the housing real estate market price is not the same as the build price.

now.
if you can calculate all the variables. and put them into a spreadsheet.
and then instead of looking at the DAILY bottom.. you widen your vision and open your eyes a little bit more. and look at the variables of a more wider timeframe than you are used to looking at. and then find the bottom of that.. then thats the bottom..
..
here is the thing..
bitcoins DAILY MARKET PRICE.. is volatile.. . the PRICE is not value. its not the thing that is backed.
its speculative.. highly speculative and highly variable..


below the price is a more stable VALUE that alters much more slowly. and is more stable. and its what people use as a base point value to then associate if the market price is near value or highly inflated bubble premium

if you do the math.. at the $0.04/kw and the hashrate now.. its about $29kish/btc..
value is not TODAYS mining cost of ~$28k-$29k in cheapest regions
..
but here is the thing.. even with the hashrate variable and difficulty. the long term stable value for many months now has been around the same 200-210exahash.. for a long while now.
(5%) variance.
where by the even longer term value is below the $28k level.....
yep i said $25k.... not today or this quarters $28k+

i must emphasise this now..
i have coins for years.. i do not associate them to the daily whims of price changes and daily hashrate changes. i use more stable measure. a more stable base point that has existed LONG TERM..
i know you want to cry blue murder about daily and fortnightly variables. but you are thinking short term and only wanting to see short term charts..
look beyond your short term vision...


but there is a big difference between the volatile daily price speculation swing of $30k-$70k we have seen in the prices.. vs the value bottom of $20k-$25k bottom over the last couple years

whereby that smaller variable of $20k to $25k value has seen a more stable and consistent rise from $20k to $25k over the last few years. (give or take a few percent)

again.. for the last time
i am not quoting bitcoins TODAYS price or todays hashrate cost($28k+) to be "value"
nor the mining cost of japan($65k) as value
nor the mining cost of hobby miners on residential electric cost in america as value..

i am saying the ultimate bottom of $25k
becasue.. major asic farms that do massive asic mining do not buy electric at the whims of the day. they have quarterly/year long contracts where they mine the same electric amount(same cost) for months/years)

do not confuse todays(short term narrow vision) mining cost variable with what i have said. as you are just trying to be pedantic and not reading it when i said no one one the planet can mine for less than $25k

there are alot of things that need to go wrong to really push the underlying value down to $0
6198  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Lightning Network Reaches Its All-Time High. on: June 10, 2022, 01:36:09 PM
To be honest, I think transaction fees used t be a bigger problem than they are now. Confirmation takes around 5-10 minutes and costs a couple of dollars, from my experience.

thats the thing though..
american/EU developers dont care about fee's because their experience is based on the northern/western hemisphere pricing of fiat goods.. and so they are not really in the mindset to push for code changes to employe a good fee formulae in bitcoin to reduce fee's further.

however lets take africans.. that 'couple dollars' you experience as being just a coffee or 6 minutes of minimum wage labour, thus not a problem..for you!... but is infact 5 HOURS (a few days groceries) FOR A BILLION PEOPLE in africa

so while you think bitcoin is good for americans to still get their weekly wage and still have 99.9% left over to spend.. in africa. its like a spending a third of their weekly wage just to receive their wage.

same goes for LN
lets use your experience by translating what an african perceives into western experience

imagine if fiat cost a third of a weeks salary just to transfer money to someone else. whereby paypal was utopian dream offering a payment system that can offer it at cheaper then a slice of bread. but here is the issue. to use paypal you need to set up about 3 paypal accounts which cost 3x the third of a week wage to set up 3 acounts(a whole weeks wage wasted. where by you also then need to put in 3 months of your wage into those accounts just to have a semi guaranteed assurance that atleast one account will have a route to a destination you want to use a months worth of salary to buy your monthly living expenses with. and then to settle up at the end of the month is another weeks wage wasted to close the paypal accounts.

yep Ln requires roughly 3 channels to have plausible amount of routing options to reach the majority of Ln nodes. meaning locking up funds in those 3 channels. meaning having enough value in each to possible pay people. which you have to have all pre-planned and pre set up for the month long lock..

enjoy the thought from the prospective of the "unbanked" population of billions of people..
they wont want to have to lock up multiple months of value for cheap fee's to use paypal(aka LN). and pay 3 fee's just to set up the arrangement with another 3 fee's to settle the arrangements next month.

nor are they liking the normal payment system (analogy: wire transfer aka bitcoin payment) of being high too.

the solution which helps both would be to have bitcoin fee's being less.. but then people would still need to think about are they doing more then X payments a month to warrant preplanning spending habits and locking up large chunks of value to use a cheaper network fee for regular/multiple payments above the X per month threshold

so people will still be questioning the utility of LN if they are not doing more then 6 payments a month using crypto
6199  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Is Bitcoin mining a zero-sum game? Or is it a race to the top? on: June 10, 2022, 12:54:23 PM
I want to belive that this is because bitcoin mining has hit the pinnacle of Moore's Law, which states that processing density doubles every 18 months, there are no more huge jumps left.

the failure of some people who think that bitcoin asics are at their limit. is a failure of understanding all the variables

its not just about chip NM size of transistors. other variables can be tweaked far beyond the NM measure.

for instance even if we say that transistors are stuck at 7nm.
(its less, but lets use large numbers for easy demo)
what can be changed is the sensitivity of the transistors.
EG imagine transistors 'switch' based on a receipt of 0.1 volt. new 7nm transistors could "switch" at 0.05volt. meaning the 'density' of the transistor has not changed. but less overall voltage is needed. and less voltage means less heat and so the gaps in the chip between transistors and thus the gaps on the circuit board between chips and thus the gaps between different circuit boards can be pushed tighter together, due to less heat generation....
.. this then means either less electric used per hash if same hash per second.. thus cheaper..
or due to tighter circuit boards inside the asic, fit more circuits and double up hashrate. even when the nm size of transistors has not changed

.
or looking at the macro level.. although the network does have ~1.5mill asics running at the same time.. nothing stops people just buying more asics.
6200  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What is the future of bitcoin? Commodity, currency or smth else? on: June 10, 2022, 12:03:51 PM
this is the hidden value line.
EG it costs people atleast $900 to mine an ounce of gold. this is golds value line
Isn't it more proper to say that there's cost? There's no "hidden value line", it just costs $X to mine gold, it costs $Y to make a house, it costs a frequently variable amount of money to mine a bitcoin.

bitcoins value is backed by the mining and acquisition costs..
But, the mining and acquisition costs in bitcoin depend (although not solely) on the demand. Difficulty does change according to the demand. Mining bitcoin isn't the same as mining gold, and therefore not a good example of the "minimum price", which is, as said, the cost.

i was talking about the bottomline.. the ultimate bottom. (emphasis when i said 'no one on the planet')
yes someone in iceland/kazahkstan can mine bitcoin for $25k/coin. but there is no one below them that can mine for less
where as japans mining costs are like $65k+

houses might sell for $5XX-$2XXX a square metre. but no one can get a house for $5 a square metre
if you can work out the bottomline square metre cost of the planet you can establish a new bottomline for the real estate market VALUE..
where by you can then tell if a house is priced well or at a premium against value.
even in just america.. it may cost more in california to build a house than it doe sin ohio.

it may cost more in texas to mine for gold than alaska.. but the ultimate bottom is the important thing. the number no one no where can acquire for right now

by taking the most absolute bottomline on the planet no one can get for less.. that becomes the new "zero"
because no one can get it for less at the time.

if there was no demand. its not an instant $0 of the coin.. its a process.. the $25k minimum slowly drops as people drop out. and like i explained this slow drop is not a certainty of being $0 short term because the drop itself slowly going down can infact re-energise some desire/demand and thus keep the price active longer or re-birth a new demand.

and as i said the value line is not based on all mining cost of the planet. its the bottom line cost no one on the planet can get for less.. all things above the bottom line is the speculative stuff based on regional variances, sentiments, supply and demand stuff.

..
personally i have coin from 2012 ($6 a coin) . but i do not value it at $6 anymore.. but i also do not value it at the current price. nor value it at the top ATH potential recently of $70k

i see my coins VALUE is a minimum of about $25k right now because right now. there is no way that i can lose because all prices around the planet being offered are above $25k, whether it be mining, market exchanging, or purchasing/selling goods or services. no one is valuing bitcoin at less than $25k.

in short
bitcoin is backed by atleast $25k of bottomline value and ~$5k of unbacked volatile speculation


..
lets take someone in japan..
their mining cost is $65k. but thats not japans "value". because in japan. they can still acquire bitcoin for $30k on an exchange or OTC deal with a iceland miner for $25k+
so japans value again is ~$25k as thats the ultimate bottom

the numbers above this bottom is the SPECULATIVE PRICE. which is variable

(emphasis. when i say mining cost and i say no one on the planet.. im talking about the minimum cost.. not the variable per region..)
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