I'm looking to purchase .5 BTC worth of shares if anyone is looking to move some? Let me know!
To keep the posting of bids and offers on this thread down, and to make a market, I've put together this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=328135.msg3523438Each post there updates the order book so the last post contains info on the current bids and offers. Other securities are doing this in a post-bitfunder world, and it's working for them. Simply post your bids and offers there per the example and we can quickly and easily match buyers and sellers. Right now, no one knows who is buying or selling and for how much (without paging through this and other threads to find the occasional post). |
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General point about the selling of new bonds: Any new bonds sold will always increase the hashrate per bond for initial bond holders and therefore shouldn't be referred to as a "dilution". Bonds will never be sold in situations when the amount got for them buys less hashing power than currently issued bonds hold, and so will only increase the rate per bond for existing holders. This was a fundamental part of the initial offering and what attracted many people to this whole operation. You should not fear future expansion, it is only to be embraced!  Labrat took your 0.15 btc and invested it to become 0.07 btc (before bitfunder announced anything). The purchases did not outpace difficulty. What makes you think second round funding will be any better? Combine that with a lack of transparency and no accountability, and a history of poor management (new mandatory fees, no accounting statements, months with no update to hashrate or hardware info), and competition that is doing all the above - I think it best LR shows he can succeed with the 1 million USD we gave him before he asks for more. |
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This is the order book for the ADDICTION group buy https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=244042.0 for 27 KNC Jupiters. It is up and hashing! Each share is 41.8 MH/s/share. Expenses for electricity/hosting are paid out of mining earnings pre-distribution (approximately $0.005 USD per share per week). There are no management fees. There are no pool fees. Distributions are made on Sundays. Here is the method to buy and sell shares, based on: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=320578.01. Make a new post in this thread quoting the current Bid/Sell table and add your entry to the table. If every reply includes an updated table, then there is no need to read previous posts. 2. If you are interested in a posted trade, PM the user to accept the trade. Perform any additional negotiations (if necessary) over PM. Do not post a thread reply for 1on1 communication. 3. Upon agreement, follow these instructions to exchange shares: Transfer process is quite simple: Seller sends a PM or email [ p2poolnl@gmail.com] with the text: "Please transfer X shares from BTC address Y to BTC address Z" and signs this line with the bitcoin client with his btc address on file Transfers have no fees (unless we get a dayjob processing them  ) Escrow can be arranged as well, escrow fees would be the transaction fees involved (usually 0.001?) plus any tip you guys feel comfortable with  If the volume of transfers grows to large we'll try to setup some system to automate some of it  4. Remove the traded shares from the market by replying to this thread. |
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How much are these shares going for nowadays now that bitfunder is shutting down and the shares are going private?
We should set up an order book thread like: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=320578.0so there aren't several auction threads going on simultaneously tyrion and blastbob, how would you like private transfers handled? What would fees be, would you do escrow, and what are the escrow fees? That info can be in the new "[ADDICTION] Order Book" thread. |
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A fan told me that minimum txfee is 0.0001 BTC. This is true since bitcoind 0.8.2 (June 2013). The nastyfans policy states: nastyfans uses the Bitcoin minimum for purchase order transaction fees
But nastyfans charged 0.0005 BTC. That was the minimum before June 2013. This means nastyfans charges extra txfees since June 2013. To remedy this policy violation I do: If a ex-member wants repayment please PM me. wow this amount of honesty and effort is wonderful to see! |
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Can we move the shares to **any** exchange?
until an exchange exists that is safe in the US, it's probably better to set up a ADDICTION specific site. The bitfunder experience showed that even running a non-US exchange is not worth it. some options: 1) bitcointalk thread for trading, tryion blastbob charge commission on sales for their time spent authorizing and tracking (labrat mining's system) 2) automated trustless system (nastyfan's system) 3) passthroughs: some investor buys a lot of shares, sets up their own exchange as a passthrough, charges commission or fee and sets up their own site. That's a horrible idea and does not solve the initial problem. A dedicated exchange has the ability to solve legal problems (like Havelook is doing right now) while having an exchange for each stock only shifts the legal problems. Also if you're holding multiple different shares it becomes highly inconvenient managing them with separate exchanges. If you like exchanges shutting down every 6 months, go ahead. Just because something is legal in Panama doesn't mean it is legal in the us - bitfunder all over again... It's more convenient to have separate exchanges than try to track down my BTC from disappearing websites. EDIT: ADDICTION is different than a stock, we are customers of resold hardware. Unlike all the cloud hashing services where you buy into a perpetually reinvesting system (managed group buy), this is a legitimate group buy. I paid money and bought something. Every week I pay for electricity, rent, and for someone to check up the equipment I bought. Once I own it, I'm free to sell it to whomever I'd like. Completely different jurisdiction than those who raised money to buy, manage, and reinvest hardware that they own and sub-license derivative proceeds through PMBs. There is no shift of legal problems because there are none. The legal problems come about when we mix with securities that are regulated by the SEC. And I know the SEC is US-only, but tell that to bitfunder. |
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Can we move the shares to **any** exchange?
until an exchange exists that is safe in the US, it's probably better to set up a ADDICTION specific site. The bitfunder experience showed that even running a non-US exchange is not worth it. some options: 1) bitcointalk thread for trading, tryion blastbob charge commission on sales for their time spent authorizing and tracking (labrat mining's system) 2) automated trustless system (nastyfan's system) 3) passthroughs: some investor buys a lot of shares, sets up their own exchange as a passthrough, charges commission or fee and sets up their own site. |
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I will decrease the percentage then. Maybe 1.67%? That's a share every half hour.
don't know this part of the code well enough, but is the calculation per miner or per node? It's possible a large node may get >1.67% of the shares but be comprised of many small miners. I don't think it's too big of a deal, it would just encourage smaller miners to diversify and not all go on a single node. |
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has anyone noticed RTM? I guess he pays 100Mhs per bond and his price is like .02 or .03, Im too tired to do the math. but could someone compare his stock with our stock? Im sure ours is much better, but it would be nice to see what the competition is doing..
For those still interested in "What the competition is doing". All bonds are buyed back, securities are closed on the BF.
Looks like LRM is continuing to roll with the punches and work for shareholders unlike some others "PMBs" buy backs in the lack of a working exchange is a legitimate exit strategy, and preferred by investors over letting PMBs wither and die without an exchange or mechanism for raising capital. However, the epic fail comes here: So, a few questions: - Should the asset issuer have frozen the asset before issuing the dividend? - Can the asset issuer even distribute dividends after the asset is frozen? (Not sure how this aspect of BitFunder works) - Are any of the lucky sellers reading this? The asset should have been frozen first. The system has no way to know that a dividend being issued is not a normal dividend. Not sure why anyone would want to allow trading after a final dividend payment goes out... -Ukyo they did their buyback in the form of a dividend, but didn't freeze the asset! so people with automatic investment lost all their buyback when it automatically purchased dead shares! yikes |
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Node collection: This can be done and bigger miners are encouraged to do this to help out the smaller ones. You can do this by using the username "username/{difficulty}". So if I want to return one HUGE share that is worth 10x a small share, I log in with "-u username/1400000" I find a share 10x less frequently, but when I do it pays out a lot. people who find 50+ shares a day can do this and see a negligible change in variance and payout while encouraging smaller miners to keep mining by reducing small miner variance.
Maybe this should be set automatically by p2pool like the difficulty to keep the share difficulty lower and keep smaller miners on the pool? Yes, I really think this should be implemented. P2pool share should not be found by a miner more frequent than every 30 minutes. If it happens, p2pool node should automatically adjust real share difficulty to higher number, so share time is still estimated to be 30 minutes. Right now having about 400 GH/s will give you p2pool share every 30 minutes. But we have miners here with 1000GH/s and more, they are finding share in less than 10 minutes. If they could increse their share time, small miners will have chance again to mine with p2pool. p2pool does this by default, it readjusts share difficulty for miners to make sure no miner has > 5% of the shares in a given window: https://github.com/forrestv/p2pool/blob/0460c6cf03b8da4a5accb5ac26606e596a5571ff/p2pool/work.py#L251desired_share_target = min(desired_share_target, bitcoin_data.average_attempts_to_target(local_hash_rate * self.node.net.SHARE_PERIOD / 0.05)) # limit to 5% of pool shares by modulating share difficulty |
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im looking to sell 1240 shares to someone in US, PM me if you are interested, also with a price offering per share. thanks.
Just wondering why you want to sell to someone in US ? because they can't buy it any other way, perhaps he's expecting a premium? |
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Hy,
thanks for the replays on my post.
Now i have mine for 5 days... no share. So i give up yesterday. "expected time to share was 11 - 14 hours)"
I see too many push "new work for the worker" and my miner become so many HW errors from this.
On a central pool the new work comes after minutes and not after seconds... less HW errors.
And when my miner diff is auto set to diff 3 or 2... so i cannot create a share over the pool diff... thats impossible or??...
Why not the node collect the miner shares and create a big node share, and all on the node, thats make shares to it, become btc from ne node btc adress, when its higher then 0.01 btc on a week, or when its higher than 0.10 on a day? or the node owner can set this?
Can i set a node fee? so when a miner create a share from my node i become 0.05% fee?
new work for worker: p2pool sends new work to worker every time a p2pool network share is found, around every 30 seconds versus 10 minutes for the bitcoin block chain (although new work is generated more frequently than 10 mins as it adds transactions to it) Errors with new work: some hardware manufacturers ignore standard miner commands and throw away all the work when there is a block change. This adds negligible wasted work when blocks are 10 minutes, but lots of wasted work when blocks aer 30 seconds. Many manufacturers released updated firmware that fixed their mistake, but not all have. Difficulty: You can set your diff higher by using the user name "username+{difficulty}" so if you want difficulty 16 shares returned to your node, just use "-u username+16" command line argument. Node collection: This can be done and bigger miners are encouraged to do this to help out the smaller ones. You can do this by using the username "username/{difficulty}". So if I want to return one HUGE share that is worth 10x a small share, I log in with "-u username/1400000" I find a share 10x less frequently, but when I do it pays out a lot. people who find 50+ shares a day can do this and see a negligible change in variance and payout while encouraging smaller miners to keep mining by reducing small miner variance. Node fee: Yes you can set a node fee by starting p2pool with the "--fee" argument. Run p2pool with "--help" to get info on how to set it up. What it does is randomly assign that percentage of shares to your default address so when a share is found, you get credit for it - not the person that logged in and found it. |
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not upset (yet), I'm just suprised to see how this has been handled, and I would like to see one place with all the relevant information. Also if I'm the only one thinking it weird to pay LabRat money for just doing what he's supposed to do I guess I just have to live with it. I can't think of any good reason to charge well willing shareholders $5 for giving them what the are owned in the first place. If I want to get screwed I go to my bank :p
Cheers
In case you don't know who tyrion70 is, he runs a mining security/group buy with 3x the hashing power of LRM (ADDICTION). He also runs an investment fund (DISCOVERY), which apparently invested in LRM (or he did personally). He ran a flawless IPO, share distribution for 3 separate group buys fairly on bitfunder, AND handled with bitfunder closeout with no fees or expenses added to his users. His management fee is transparent and well known, his mining address is public (all things people are asking LR to do). He knows what he's talking about. |
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really good explanation
share diff is determined such that:
1) a p2pool share is found every 30 seconds
2) no single miner is expected to generate >5% of the shares (difficulty is adjusted up to keep the total number of shares lower, just for them)
One more thing, the share chain isn't always 8640 long. It's 3x the expected work needed to find a block, or 8640, whichever is less. So right now it's ~45 hours, so a little under two days. (I believe that's what the code says, please correct me if I'm wrong)
All the math aside, what matters is that the expected payout using p2pool is greater than that of any other pool -- even for small miners. The variance, however, is bigger.
Thats confuse me. I have mine for 2 Days (Friday and Saturday) with 14 GH on mine p2pool node smileandgo.de:9332 The Node makes no pool shares. My miner have make over 32k accepted shares to the node. And i become no payouts to my address or to the node address You haven't found a p2pool share yet. The 32k shares you see are simply shares reporting back to the node for statistics. The current p2pool difficulty is 138k. So you are expected to find one p2pool share after ~138k difficulty 1 shares. The entire network finds a share every 30 seconds, not just you. When you find a p2pool share, it pays out a lot more than a difficulty 1 PPS share, but you find them less frequently. Larger and less frequent payouts means higher variance. It's possible that you will get 0 payouts for each share you find if the whole pool doesn't find one in ~2 days after you found yours, but it's also possible that it finds 6 (and pays you 6 times). On average, you get paid more than a PPS scheme. But variance is larger, especially for smaller miners. It's up to you to choose how much variance is worth to you. |
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I don't think that's right, but I'm a bit sketchy on it myself. Someone jump in here and fix any errors.
From my understanding, it's very similar to PPLNS (pay per last N shares) at any pool, except you are mining p2pool shares (at a 30 second target), instead of bitcoin blocks (at a 10 min target). The share chain "N" is 8640 shares long. When a new share is found the last share 8640 away from it is dropped. When a bitcoin block is found, you are paid based on the number and difficulty of shares you have found that are still in the last 8640 shares of the share chain. At a 30 second average per share and 8640 shares, that's 72 hours. So if you find a share it stays valid, or in the share chain for a payment, for 3 days. Or another way, when a block is found, payment is distributed for the last 8640 shares - which should span the last 3 days. IDK how the diff of the share works though.
really good explanation share diff is determined such that: 1) a p2pool share is found every 30 seconds 2) no single miner is expected to generate >5% of the shares (difficulty is adjusted up to keep the total number of shares lower, just for them) One more thing, the share chain isn't always 8640 long. It's 3x the expected work needed to find a block, or 8640, whichever is less. So right now it's ~45 hours, so a little under two days. (I believe that's what the code says, please correct me if I'm wrong) All the math aside, what matters is that the expected payout using p2pool is greater than that of any other pool -- even for small miners. The variance, however, is bigger. |
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