Bitcoin Forum
April 19, 2024, 09:02:03 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 26.0 [Torrent]
 
  Home Help Search Login Register More  
  Show Posts
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 [12] 13 14 15 16 »
221  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin snack machine (fast transaction problem) on: May 25, 2011, 05:50:15 AM


One more point I'd like to make is that the _only_ person who can double spend is the owner of the coin (since only he knows the private key). The only time clients see a double spend is if the owner is purposely being malicious. It is therefore reasonable to drop _both_ the original and the second transactions if a double spend is seen within a window of time.

But dropping the transaction penalizes the recipient, not the sender, right?  It's bad enough that the second recipient gets screwed out of the bitcoins.  Why would you want to double the amount of innocent victims, by also penalizing the first recipient?

I think you are trying to hurt the sender by locking up the coins, but I'm not sure your proposal achieves that.

(then again, I'm still a newbie, so pardon my ignorance, if I'm wrong!)

I believe this would be in the context of the snack machine and fast payment processor.  Since there is only a few (~15) second window for double-spend you don't dispense the sugary snack until that amount of time has passed.  If you do detect a double spend you block the coin and don't dispense the healthy/sugary snack, no one but the malicious owner is affected.

I'm sure a payment processor could block the coin within it's own network, but it could still get in someone else's block later.  If everyone blocked it then in the case you're speaking of, outside of the snack machine context, both recipients would get screwed.



Exactly. This all happens in 15 seconds. After the 30 second window the second spend is ignored and the original is not dropped. The idea is you want to make sure most of the network knows the original spend and no one detected a double spend.

After 30 seconds almost all nodes know the original spend and ignore any second attempt to spend. Any second spend would have a very hard time gaining momentum. Eventually, in about ten minutes, the original spend is locked into a chained block, so I don't think a second spend could get in later.
222  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Real names on: May 19, 2011, 09:32:36 PM
PS. If you want to I'll post a SHA-256 of my real name.

just in case it's not clear, it's likely that someone else could brute-force that

Good point, what if it's just the first 4 characters of the SHA-256?
Sorry, that's not safe either. The problem is a dictionary attack going through all common names and calculating the 4 characters you use. It may hit a few times (since 4 characters is a handful of bits) and they'll have a very short list of candidate names for you.
223  Other / Obsolete (selling) / Re: Arabic translation for bitcoins on: May 15, 2011, 05:23:31 AM
Yes I did. Good job I thought. But then, I'm familiar with Bitcoin.
224  Other / Obsolete (selling) / Re: Arabic translation for bitcoins on: May 15, 2011, 05:10:49 AM
I'm a native Arabic speaker. It's a good translation. Hard to follow due to the technical nature of the subject but good language.
225  Other / Politics & Society / Re: a question for left-liberals on: May 11, 2011, 03:50:06 PM
If your labor is worth $3 an hour but the minimum wage is $6 an hour, you don't get the $6 an hour at a $3 an hour loss to the employer. You get nothing because you won't be hired. You're presenting a false dilemma. The choice isn't between $3 an hour and $6 an hour. The choice is between $3 an hour and nothing. Whatever can be said about getting $3 an hour, a lot more can be said about getting nothing.

It's not always that sharp a choice. How about if the argument is between $3 and $3.25? Some employers will pay and a few will have to do without the workers. Too bad for them.
226  Other / Meta / Re: Having a user rating system without feedback.... on: May 08, 2011, 01:26:56 PM
Is like the police setting up a speed camera and you getting a fine in the mail two weeks later. It does nothing about the speeding at the time you did it.

It would be helpful if you could know why someone voted you up or down. The current system is innefective in changing behaviour because you dont know wtf you did to deserve ratings.

If 10 trolls give you a negative rating wtf does that even mean ?

Id like to see who gave a rating and who rated other people. That is more important than seeing a pointless number count going up or down.

Take the bitcoin-otc for instance.....

I can't even tell what post got the rating.
227  Economy / Economics / Re: Why Bitcoin can’t be a currency on: May 06, 2011, 09:28:13 PM
If prices were set in gold, then the price of gold wouldn't vary drastically. The only reason the price of gold and bitcoins vary drastically is because they are being compared to the dollar and a) the demand for dollars vs. bitcoins or gold varies over time and b) central banks arbitrarily alter the supply of fiat money.

If prices were set in gold, then the price of gold wouldn't vary one iota. An ounce of gold would cost exactly an ounce of gold. My point is that as demand for gold went up, it would cost a lot more of other stuff to pay for an ounce of gold.

If you're not in debt and gold went up in value it wouldn't effect you very much, but if you're in debt, then the real cost of your loan just went up substantially since your salary would have to get smaller.




If you look to history, you will see that prices and wages were once set in gold, but have not been since the establishment of legal tender laws. Particularly, look at the attempted introduction of state backed notes on the west coast, and how they fared compared to gold/silver until federal legal tender laws were enacted.

I'm not familiar with this history on the west coast. I'll try to read up on it. Maybe if you had a pointer? I'd appreciate it.
228  Economy / Economics / Re: Why Bitcoin can’t be a currency on: May 06, 2011, 08:57:47 PM
So, what you all think?

I think bitcoin will be a great substitute for gold but will never replace national currencies for setting prices and wages.

No one sets prices and wages in gold today. You'd be fixing the price of gold and allowing everything else to swing all over the place as economic activity varied. That may be ok if you choose to ignore debt. If debt is denominated in gold (or bitcoin) a swing in value relative to the ability of debtors to pay back, through wages for example, will drive them to default and drag the economy down.

Can you imagine your mortgage denominated in gold? It would be crazy to accept that as a borrower. As it is the last downturn drove millions to default and that was with the Fed trying hard to supply liquidity to the market. Imagine if their mortgages were denominated in gold.
229  Other / Politics & Society / Re: a question for left-liberals on: May 06, 2011, 01:43:35 AM
You're ignoring the fact that society pays to support underpaid people, to police the streets if nothing else. Society benefits if people have a living wage even though the "free" market value of his labor is less than a living wage. We have three choices:

1. Allow very low wages and don't support anyone -> we end up living in a brutish world.
2. Allow very low wages and support low income people through subsidies.
3. Pass laws that raise wages.

I don't want to live in 1.
We actually live between 2 and 3.
230  Other / Off-topic / Re: Private key backup and security on: May 05, 2011, 05:40:33 PM
People who use GPG: How do you back up your private key?

I'm using a passphrase-protected private key with what I consider to be a strong passphrase (quite long, no English words, no personal relevance, etc). Do I need to be protective of this key? My guess is that it's symmetrically encrypted using some derivative of my passphrase, so it should be unusable by anyone without my passphrase. If that's the case, I could post it on a billboard in Times Square and no one could do anything with it. But I keep hearing that I need to keep my secret key secret, so it's possible I'm missing something here. What is it?

Your secret key is secret and safe on a billboard if the passphrase and the encryption algorithm used is good. 

To actually use the key you would have to move it to a safe place (your personal computer) to decrypt it. Hence you are keeping your secret key secret.
231  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: What is this mining for? on: May 05, 2011, 04:35:22 PM
touch
232  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Starting out with soloing on: May 05, 2011, 04:34:26 PM
marking
233  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcents? on: May 05, 2011, 04:33:10 PM
It's all about psychology, 100 Bitcents sounds more even though it's exactly the same amount as 1 Bitcoin, so unconsciously you think that you make a better deal even though you're not.

By that line of reasoning, why say 100 Bitcents when you can say 100000000 Satoshis instead?

Makes it seem cheap.
234  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Suggestion: A simple way to protect new users from losing their wallet.dat's on: May 04, 2011, 08:40:12 PM
Well then, if the import-keys function is added, I suggest adding the ability to create a new key-pair seeded by a password entered then and there.

This way you could create one of those keys, park a bit of coin in it and have it available at any time in the future at any client simply by entering the same password.

Not only useful for you, but a neat way to transfer coin using a human memorable password. You and your buddy are having dinner and you need to transfer 10 BTC to him. Your client on your phone creates a temporary key solely for this transfer, based on a simple password you both agree on, and loads it with 10 BTC. He enters the same password on his phone client and moves the coin to one of his permanent keys. The temporary password is not needed any more and can be dropped by both parties.

Of course if a password generated key-pair is used to store coin long term, make the password a strong one and print it out!

Bad idea. What happens when two people use the same password?

Nothing worse than if you save your wallet on a public forum, as far as I can tell. If you're stupid, you lose your coin.  No one is storing any coin long term in these keys and if someone is stupid enough to use "password" as the password he should expect a collision sometimes.

If we want to protect stupid users I suppose the client could perform basic checks like password quality indicators and checking that the new key-pair has never been seen before in the block chain. My experience is it's a losing game trying to protect stupid people from themselves.
235  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Suggestion: A simple way to protect new users from losing their wallet.dat's on: May 04, 2011, 06:38:41 PM
Well then, if the import-keys function is added, I suggest adding the ability to create a new key-pair seeded by a password entered then and there.

This way you could create one of those keys, park a bit of coin in it and have it available at any time in the future at any client simply by entering the same password.

Not only useful for you, but a neat way to transfer coin using a human memorable password. You and your buddy are having dinner and you need to transfer 10 BTC to him. Your client on your phone creates a temporary key solely for this transfer, based on a simple password you both agree on, and loads it with 10 BTC. He enters the same password on his phone client and moves the coin to one of his permanent keys. The temporary password is not needed any more and can be dropped by both parties.

Of course if a password generated key-pair is used to store coin long term, make the password a strong one and print it out!
236  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Suggestion: A simple way to protect new users from losing their wallet.dat's on: May 04, 2011, 06:11:34 PM
Is there any way in the current client to enter a key-pair not generated in that client?
237  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Suggestion: A simple way to protect new users from losing their wallet.dat's on: May 03, 2011, 05:30:00 PM
How about using the seeding method PGP used. Have the user bang on the keyboard randomly while giving him feedback on the entropy until both he and the program are satisfied. If he likes the idea of regenerating his wallet, he can print out the random sequence. If not, he can just bypass that step and the client is just the regular client with a very strong seed.

In all the years PGP has been used I don't think there was ever a danger that two PGP clients ended up with the same seed. I think the same would be true of the wallet in bitcoin.

238  Economy / Economics / Re: The Ultimatum Game on: April 21, 2011, 04:31:12 PM
In a one-shot game, there is never any purely financial incentive to reject whatever offer.  As I said, not even a 5000$/0$ one.

Not true. Many would pay a little to punish a jerk. 0$ sounds little enough for me. So does 10$. I don't know about $100. I'd go with the deal and mumble under my breath about jerks at $1000.
239  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Making it easy for merchants to accept Bitcoin as payment on: April 21, 2011, 04:12:12 PM
Keep in mind that a node will not forward a transaction if it has already seen one that conflicts.  

This is why in a previous post I'd recommended we do pass an indication of a double spend.

... the _only_ person who can double spend is the owner of the coin (since only he knows the private key). The only time clients see a double spend is if the owner is purposely being malicious. It is therefore reasonable to drop _both_ the original and the second transactions if a double spend is seen within a window of time. Further, the double spend "event" could be bundled (both original transactions included in the bundle as proof of the double spend) into a transaction that locks that coin out for a long time (remember, we have proof of malicious intent so we would be justified in locking out the coin for say 10,000 blocks or more).

After the [15 second] window of time expires the second transaction is simply ignored. At this point we don't want to lock out the coin because we don't want to leave an opening for the original owner to cancel the original transaction. We would need the window to be large enough that we are very confident most clients have seen it yet short enough that the selling merchant can wait without burdening normal customers. 15 seconds for example. So, waiting 30 seconds without seeing the coin lockout transaction would assure the merchant no double spending happened.
240  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Making it easy for merchants to accept Bitcoin as payment on: April 21, 2011, 03:03:42 PM
Clients publish transactions to each other within seconds. If a new transaction is not a copy of the short term list of new transactions and is not a copy of something in the block chain it is probably ok to believe it will be accepted and you can proceed with the transactions.

The risk is that your client hasn’t seen the duplicate and the other transaction gets incorporated in the chain. I believe the chances of that happening for a normal transaction are low. The double spender would have to actively attack your client network connection to accomplish a double spend and for normal transactions a wait of a few seconds is perfectly fine. We would need the window to be large enough that we are very confident most clients have seen the transaction yet short enough that the selling merchant can wait without burdening normal customers. 15 seconds for example.

For high value transactions (like paying for a car) waiting for a few confirmations seems acceptable.

I think the merchant's client could be modified to let the merchant know there are no conflicting transactions in the active list after 15-30 seconds.
NO, unconfirmed transactions with no special attempts to ensure finding double-spend transactions are not acceptable for any automated system.  In the standard client, even if your client does hear about a double spend, it doesn't mark the double-spent transaction of notify you in any way.  If an attacker created to transactions, sending one to the largest miners (not hard to figure out their IPs) and one to you (depending on the way you structure it, also probably not hard to find your IP) and you would be none the wiser.  Even if you purposefully modify your client to mark double-spent transactions, you have to make sure you have a direct connection between you and the miners attacked to ensure the nodes in between don't drop the double-spend you want to know about.

Within 15 seconds you would hear from the miner he targeted and know he double spent. The client could be changed to notify you of the double spend. To stop that he would have to keep you from hearing from most other clients for many seconds. That's hard.

Anyway, I'm talking about adjusting the wait to the amount spent. A vending machine that charges 30 cents for a stick of gum could wait 15 seconds and would just eat the loss if an attack like that were being mounted. They do that today when someone uses a slug in a vending machine.
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 [12] 13 14 15 16 »
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!