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723
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Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts on Zcash?
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on: February 05, 2016, 08:25:07 PM
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Nice, so you ignore me on one account then switch accounts and talk to me? Lol.
It is not my fault you misused the term viewkey as it is usually used around here. You stated there would be no viewkey and I simply pointed out that wasn't the case. Then you called me an idiot because you misused the term viewkey, and directly caused my misunderstanding of what you were trying to convey.
Anyways, it is clear that we are debating semantics, and you (as always) remain delusional about how big of an a hole you come across as. I am very laid back, but not to people that are condescending assholes like you that are never wrong about anything.
You inject your subjective opinions as if they are objective facts, and lace it with enough truth so that sheep believe what you are saying. Then, you vicously defend the position as if you are handcuffed to a laptop 24x7 and have nothing better to do... ever. So, eventually people give up on debating your subjective opinions, if they didn't already because of your rudeness, and you feel like you "won" the argument. Therefore, you are the smartest person in the world and everyone else are incompetent sheep with brains the size of peas.
I've got you figured out pretty well, and I would prefer you just ignore me because you are the biggest waste of time ever. I wouldn't respond to you to save time, but then that would give the illusion to others that your subjective opinions are objective facts.
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724
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Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts on Zcash?
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on: February 05, 2016, 07:15:26 PM
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One last time, before you go on permanent ignore... Ignore me instead of admitting you are wrong about the viewkey. Or, maybe you are too stupid to realize you are wrong. Either way, you will find out eventually and feel like an idiot. The CEO of electric coin company stated there would be a view key in his AMA... an AMA in which you participated. Maybe you should practice reading comprehension.
You don't understand that Zook (the CEO) explained to me at his AMA that there is no viewkey: In Zcash, the creator of each individual transaction gets complete control over who can view the contents of the transaction. This is accomplished by each transaction being individually encrypted by an encryption key known only to the creator and the recipient.
There is no other mechanism by which any party can gain the ability to view the contents of transactions other than getting the decryption key from the creator or the recipient of the transaction, or from someone else who has previously received the decryption key. This is a simple, implementable, secure, and understandable mechanism for controlling who can see what. We call it "selective transparency".
Does that answer your question?
You are either an idiot that lacks reading comprehension, or you areally bacracking in an atempt to avoid admitting that you were wrong by alluding that you were talking about a global viewkey (or backdoor.) He clearly states several times that there is a view key per transaction, but not a global view key or back door. So I don't know why you keep saying therw is no viewkey, because there very clearly is. If you really were using the term viewkey, as in them including a backdoor, then they have stated multiple times there will be none. That is a misuse of the word viewkey, at least in the way it's used around here referencing crypto note coins, and no one would know what exactly you were or are referencing by calling it such. You are an even bigger idiot for suggesting they include a backdoor, effectively dealing a death blow to their company before it even gets started. For someone with as much business acumen as you claim, you are showing no to little business sense. I know you will claim that the government will shut it down if they don't include a back door, but luckily not everyone is as willing to bend over for the government like you. It is fine if you want to be a pansy and give into the government's violations of human rights, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to. |
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725
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Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts on Zcash?
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on: February 05, 2016, 03:52:57 PM
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Ignore me instead of admitting you are wrong about the viewkey. Or, maybe you are too stupid to realize you are wrong. Either way, you will find out eventually and feel like an idiot. The CEO of electric coin company stated there would be a view key in his AMA... an AMA in which you participated. Maybe you should practice reading comprehension. Good day. (Edit: or ninja edit your posts, backtrack, and ignore that you were wrong. That works too.  ) |
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726
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Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts on Zcash?
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on: February 05, 2016, 03:15:13 PM
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so bruised ego, so elbows, so acrimony, so disrespectful, so petty, so unproductive, so anti-teamwork, so failure. You are one to speak... A self proclaimed genius ought to be able to figure out that there will be a view key in Zcash. If you had 3/4 the IQ I have you would know that too. Maybe try understanding the white paper instead of reading it. Governments will enforce copyrights and trademarks just as successfully as they have enforced copyright laws. You lecturing me about ego... pot meet kettle. |
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727
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Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts on Zcash?
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on: February 04, 2016, 11:17:46 PM
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Thanks... it is hard to know what TPTB has been talking about since he just says "read my thread". You summed it up nicely... I've been wondering what he has been talking about and too lazy/busy to read his long threads. I am sure governments and/or government contractors and/or corporations are probably scraping metadata from Bitcoin (and possibly other cryptocurrencies.) I haven't done a ton of research on the subject like you guys, but I tend to agree with you that if you wanted to be as private/anonymous as possible, you would still need to try and obscure your metadata even while using Zcash. If the view key is ever compromised then so is your privacy, and it would also be necessary if they do a reset. I don't think this will be a huge issue for corporations though, because really we are talking about IP (or possibly computer hardware/software (or OS) versions) leaks... which they wouldn't really be too worried about I don't think. They are more worried about financial privacy than anonymity, so that their competition is kept in the dark. If it is true that, with the Zcash view key, someone can see all transactions that ever occurred on that account, then I see this as a major blow to the functionality of Zcash. Perhaps there is still space for a technology like Monero with per-transaction view keys (and hopefully Monero will be combined with some type of CT implementation soon.) I can't imagine corporations wanting to open their books to anyone and everyone that they need to prove to that any certain transaction(s) occurred. I am still confused if the Zcash view key reveals all transactions for any certain account, or if can be done on a transaction-by-transaction basis. I don't intend this to be condescending, but you just can't formulate logic based on incorrect assumptions of the technology and also incorrect assessment of the realistically achievable goals. If you don't have the time for deep study (because you are a full-time university student), then it will be difficult for you write opinions that always make sense. Afaics, all the above doesn't make sense, because of several different facts that you haven't yet incorporated into your thought process. For one, afair there isn't any Zcash viewkey (at least not yet although I have asked them about this and how they can appease the government and have auditing capabilities without a viewkey). Also no anonymity technology can protect you from the government, because the governments can force you to provide the viewkey and/or censor your transaction by employing a 51% attack the coin (i.e. control over the longest chain) numerous ways (e.g. charge the cost to the electricity to the collective and/or regulate the mining farms). Even those in the past who rebutted me with, "but the miners can be in every country and the USA can't control every country", have had to eat their words now that we've shown that China has monopolized mining and is even lying about their justification for 51% attacking Bitcoin. I was warning about Tragedy of the Commons centralization of control in 2013 and everyone said I was loony[1] and now even Germany is instituting the BigT lie to implement capital controls[2] (why do you think Merkel and the Troika allowed 1.1 million muslims to invade Germany! it was to make the people feel unsafe!). We the masses will never be able to have privacy from the government (from our society) until we all decide that priority is the most important and force our will on the government. That isn't going to happen for the masses until after they suffer through some totalitarianism in the 2017 - 2032 timeframe. Some of the masses are aware enough to perhaps not like NSA snooping (yet some support it as they support the military for their safety, nationalistic pride, and dominance of the USA as the reserve currency), but it isn't the most important priority that they are willing to fight for with all their effort and zeal. The Chinese (not all perhaps but enough do) actually support the single party Communist system, because afaik they think that people need to be disciplined and they think this provides a more harmonious society. I don't intend this to be condescending, but you just can't formulate logic based on incorrect assumptions of the technology. For instance, your incorrect assumption there is no viewkey in Zcash invalidates an entire paragraph of your retort, if you wold have separated your diatribe into paragraphs that is. Perhaps you should spend more time researching (or understanding) something you claim to be an expert on. Furthermore, it is disgusting how willing you are to lick the tyrannical boots of governments everywhere. Luckily, not everyone thinks like that. Otherwise all of the issues around the world, or more specifically human rights issues, would never be resolved. All persons should have a right to maintaining their privacy and anonymity without government interference. Whether it be finance, communication, personal, where you go, or what you do, everyone deserves privacy and anonymity if they so choose. Decentralized and anonymity technologies can, are and will be used to force governments' hands into repealing oppressive laws and regulations. The easy way out is to admit defeat, so I don't blame you, but nothing is impossible. Governments have had trouble shutting down truly decentralized technologies like Bittorrent. So what if most (or all) cryptocurrencies are not truly decentralized, they are a step in the right direction and their distributed nature makes them much harder to shut down than any centralized web site or service. Not only governments, but Corporations will also eventually be greatly effected by decentralized and anonymity technologies. You cannot enforce patents or trademarks against a decentralized network. This will even the playing field for low and middle class citizens of the world to compete against Corporations. It will create a true free market of businesses, providing more choices and competition, which in turn results in better services and products for everyone. I could honestly go on and on about all of the many ways different technologies, industries, and governments will be effected. I think decentralized, anonymity, and blockchain technologies will change the world. |
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728
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Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts on Zcash?
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on: February 04, 2016, 04:58:02 AM
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TPTB's premise is that IP addresses and other metadata are being spied on. You can't transact in basecoins, even just to move from one mixer to another, without encountering that exposure.
I don't agree with him that transacting in zerocash without worrying about your metadata exposure is of any real value, and neither does anyone else, but that's a different issue.
Also, TPTB operates under the premise that miners will be centralized and engage in 51% policy attacks. If they do that they can refuse to allow you to move your basecoins to the new mixer unless you identify yourself.
I agree with you that the possibility of moving to a reset coin has some potential value. It also has potential risks. The more times your have to perform the setup, the more opportunities there are for it to be compromised. Especially if it becomes routine and people get careless. Zcash has not said anything about planning to do these kinds of resets, as far as I've seen.
The above comments are in regard to a permisionless cryptocurrency ledgers, not permissioned blockchains.
Thanks... it is hard to know what TPTB has been talking about since he just says "read my thread". You summed it up nicely... I've been wondering what he has been talking about and too lazy/busy to read his long threads. I am sure governments and/or government contractors and/or corporations are probably scraping metadata from Bitcoin (and possibly other cryptocurrencies.) I haven't done a ton of research on the subject like you guys, but I tend to agree with you that if you wanted to be as private/anonymous as possible, you would still need to try and obscure your metadata even while using Zcash. If the view key is ever compromised then so is your privacy, and it would also be necessary if they do a reset. I don't think this will be a huge issue for corporations though, because really we are talking about IP (or possibly computer hardware/software (or OS) versions) leaks... which they wouldn't really be too worried about I don't think. They are more worried about financial privacy than anonymity, so that their competition is kept in the dark. If it is true that, with the Zcash view key, someone can see all transactions that ever occurred on that account, then I see this as a major blow to the functionality of Zcash. Perhaps there is still space for a technology like Monero with per-transaction view keys (and hopefully Monero will be combined with some type of CT implementation soon.) I can't imagine corporations wanting to open their books to anyone and everyone that they need to prove to that any certain transaction(s) occurred. I am still confused if the Zcash view key reveals all transactions for any certain account, or if can be done on a transaction-by-transaction basis. |
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729
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Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts on Zcash?
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on: February 04, 2016, 03:59:55 AM
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The zerocoin mixer can be periodically reset, forcing all anonymous zerocoins to cash out periodically to basecoins which can be re-minted into the next instance of the zerocoin mixer. In this way, it can be proven that no zerocoins were created out-of-thin-air. All the anonymous mixing that occurs in the zerocoins can remain fully masked because the zerocoins balance can be merged before un-minting back to a basecoin.
So the problem is easily resolved. And the anonymity is not compromised even if the master private key was.
The process of resetting the mixer and forcing people to remint does compromise anonymity. If you were an adversary and wanted to spy on zerocash users, forcing such a reset (and then spying on them while redeeming and reminting) would be precisely one way you could go about doing it. This general pattern is a classic exploit method (e.g. force/trick user to reset password; intercept new password, etc.). I don't get how you can spy on someone if you don't know who owns what address. They could simply generate a new address for the reset and then send it straight back to the zerocoin layer, no? This is actually the first time I've heard about it being able to be reset like that. I think that is a pro, not a con. It would give users the peace of mind that no one's printing money from time to time, even though everyone cab be fairly sure that they aren't since the seed will be generated using MPC transparently. The only thing about this coin I'm not liking is the percentage of each block that goes to a corporation. I hope AnonyMint will free us from corporate tyranny? I guess if you are not implementing ZC technology then someone else will eventually fork it and cut the corporation out of the loop. However, network effects can grow quite fast... |
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731
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Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts on Zcash?
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on: February 04, 2016, 01:28:09 AM
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Your memory is only partially right. There is a potential problem with trusted setup. They have said they play to do this in some public ceremony with multiple parties so that unless ALL of those parties collude, the minting process is safe.
If all parties colluded they could print a unlimited number of coins undetected, however the privacy of transactions would not be affected. Essentially it is an economic threat of a poorly designed setup allowing parties to collude to print unlimited coins. There is not a privacy threat from collusion.
Good god that is like a million times worse. So they'd be able to 'print' unlimited quantity of money undetected ? And we trust that this inner circle present at the seeding ceremony are trustworthy !  LucyLovesCrypto is right and describes the weaknesses, and potential threats of it perfectly. I also elaborated on it here -> https://forum.bitcoin.com/post16245.html#p16245Umm... no he is not correct. They have already stated how they are going to generate the seed. After a little research, they seem to have figured out a good way to do this using multi party computation. Using MPC to generate the seed was talked about in the original version of Zerocoin, and it seems like they will use their own version of it for Zerocash. If you look into the (now proven false rumors) that Anoncoin was going to implement Zerocoin there is a lot of discussion about MPC. The whitepaper for the MPC math they will use to generate the seed is written by the authors of the Zerocash whitepaper. https://forum.z.cash/t/trusted-setup-phase/68/2Touche  |
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732
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Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts on Zcash?
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on: February 03, 2016, 11:15:54 PM
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Also I remember hearing about an anonymisation technique in which you have to trust the person who generated the first block to destroy the private key without writing it down, otherwise they have the ability to decrypt the anonymisation forever after. Is this using that technique ? If so why trust they don't have the backdoor key handy ?
Your memory is only partially right. There is a potential problem with trusted setup. They have said they play to do this in some public ceremony with multiple parties so that unless ALL of those parties collude, the minting process is safe. If all parties colluded they could print a unlimited number of coins undetected, however the privacy of transactions would not be affected. Essentially it is an economic threat of a poorly designed setup allowing parties to collude to print unlimited coins. There is not a privacy threat from collusion. Good god that is like a million times worse. So they'd be able to 'print' unlimited quantity of money undetected ? And we trust that this inner circle present at the seeding ceremony are trustworthy ! We don't know how the participants will be chosen, so perhaps best to wait and see before reaching conclusions. They are using multi party computation, which is a transparent way to generate the starting seed. See my post up-thread.... there will be no "ceremony". |
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733
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Economy / Services / Re: Design a physical Bitcoin - (CONTEST IS CLOSED)
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on: February 01, 2016, 03:43:34 AM
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Long time  I hope things are better. I admire how you've kept your word after so much time and wish you well. Here is my address: 19c1q1Z4hXXz2yFb3ri2RDSGZZrrmd8rmX Alright, I just sent 0.4 BTC to 19c1q1Z4hXXz2yFb3ri2RDSGZZrrmd8rmX - c2f1b4ef64382b14df6ed475f5326adfcfc90bb1b3ecdffd6f7d486a7be6e2df Thanks for the kind words! I hope you are doing good as well. Take care! |
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734
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Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [ETH] Ethereum = Scam
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on: January 30, 2016, 05:01:25 AM
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Note the viable solution for Ethereum may be to centralize only the verification, and keep the voting power decentralized. This is essentially what I am proposing for my PoW design.
I assume you mean verification as in if the smart contract output matches the input submitted by the requesting node? Centralization of the transaction processing seems to be giving up the decentralized voting power. Centralization is always more efficient, but complete centralization is not necessary. That is your main gripe with Ethereum, right? That each node has to run the scripts themselves? I think proper checks and balances could be implemented to reduce the amount of nodes the code has to be ran on while maintaining decentralization. IE. If 100% of an arbitrary number of randomly selected nodes agree on the output, then it may not be necessary for all nodes on the network to run that code as long as there is one honest node. If there is one dissenting node, then the full network (or a larger percentage of the network) runs the code to solve the dispute. ... or something similar to this. |
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735
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Alternate cryptocurrencies / Speculation (Altcoins) / Re: Is Ethereum a bubble?
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on: January 30, 2016, 04:00:31 AM
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If top price of $2.5 is considered bubble, than yes. But, for me increase from 1 to 2 dollars is far from a bubble. Its just a pump.
You shouldn't look at price, the market cap tells a better story.  How is it a buy right this moment? Everything resembles a large correction may occur. |
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736
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Alternate cryptocurrencies / Speculation (Altcoins) / Re: Is Ethereum a bubble?
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on: January 30, 2016, 03:51:02 AM
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If I missed the run up, I wouldn't buy ETH unless there's upside momentum.
I missed it and I am not worried. I maintain the opinion it will come down eventually. This kind of a pump always happen with new coins that are well hyped and have the innovation to back it up. It happened with Nxt, Bitshares, etc... (list a million coins here) ... Also, other coins that already exist have similar technology (Crypti, Qora, etc... eventually RootStock) and a fraction of the market cap... I think equilibrium will eventually be reached. Neither Ethereum/Crypti/Quora have a killer app as of yet. I think at this point all have an equal chance to thrive if it lands one of the first (or one of the first few) killer apps. Ethereum does have a better chance at a killer app, but a serious project might be able to make a more successful start up by developing on a less popular chain that is under priced (while investing in it at the same time.) I think Ethereum is a good cryptocurrency to speculate in, but I think you kind of have to be a bit insane to be buying right now at these prices. |
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737
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Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts on Zcash?
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on: January 30, 2016, 01:38:54 AM
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Welcome back TPTB... I am glad to see it was a temporary ban. You did not deserve that.  I will try to read what you posted over. I only have so much time.. 40 hour work weeks plus school is tough. I wish you could make TL;DR versions of your posts.  |
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738
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Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Thoughts on Zcash?
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on: January 30, 2016, 01:25:47 AM
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I finally found some time to properly respond... busy week!  Functionally the main difference between Monero and Zcash (esp. after RingCT is integrated) is that Zcash has a larger anonymity set at the level of individual transactions (all previous users) than Monero (some randomly chosen subset of previous users). In practice the difference is likely somewhat narrower, but difficult to fully characterize.
I agree The trade off for that difference in anonymity set is a wide gap in efficiency
I agree, but I am not sure it is a huge deal. Most cryptocurrencies hardly process any transactions per second. It is unclear exactly how less efficient Zerocash is compared to RingCT anyways, so we will not really be able to test how big of an effect this will have until both technologies are out in the wild. When using privacy-focused cryptocurrencies, I think that it is reasonable to accept longer transaction processing times and a larger amount of data per transaction for the sake of anonymity/privacy. I am not sure how worried privacy/anonymity focused users will be when it comes to efficiency and data usage. a wide gap in cryptographic complexity and maturity
I disagree here. Maybe if you are comparing Zerocash to Monero as it currently exists, but you are comparing Zerocash vs Monero with RingCT... hardly anyone truly understands the math behind Monero as it currently exists, much less the math behind RingCT. Although it may be true Zerocash is more complicated mathematically than RingCT, they both are quite hard to grasp if you don't dedicate a long time to understanding them and/or are a mathematician/genius. Furthermore, people use things they don't understand every day. Many people don't understand how a car works but drive, how a credit card works but use their cards for every transaction they make, how a plane works but fly, etc. probably a gap in implementation maturity
I disagree with this as well. RingCT will be just as new, as far as the implementation, as Zerocash because both have barely entered the library/alpha stage. the trusted setup,
After a little research, they seem to have figured out a good way to do this using multi party computation. Using MPC to generate the seed was talked about in the original version of Zerocoin, and it seems like they will use their own version of it for Zerocash. If you look into the (now proven false rumors) that Anoncoin was going to implement Zerocoin there is a lot of discussion about MPC. The whitepaper for the MPC math they will use to generate the seed is written by the authors of the Zerocash whitepaper. https://forum.z.cash/t/trusted-setup-phase/68/2 some functional limitations
I'm not sure what you mean and some stronger cryptographic assumptions (meaning more ways it can break, but not necessarily to a degree that is a huge concern).
I can agree with this. Anyway given that Monero already uses cryptography rather than mixing, the option to swap out the cryptography with zerocash exists, just as regular ring signatures are now being swapped out with RingCT. There are no current plans to do so for the above reasons, but if zerocash techniques become more mature and trusted (and perhaps efficient), and it becomes clear that's what users want, it could be done at some point.
tldr, these are both serious, credible cryptographic techniques to deliver private transactions, with different advantages and disadvantages.
I agree. ------------------- I think you gave a mostly fair review, but I disagree (and/or disagree about how big of a deal) some of your claims are. Disclaimer: I am an investor in Monero, and will also be buying some Zcash as soon as I am able. |
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