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2681  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL Product Failures / Underperformance. on: December 28, 2013, 02:25:19 PM
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=387715.msg4174302#msg4174302

Quote
   
BFL Black Friday order arrived, thoughts and boosts....

Well, my BFL order came. Minus the $20 PCI-E cable, I guess it's on back order and I'm glad that they didn't wait for it. But it does mean I have to use the BFL cables for the moment....

Anyway, some thoughts: The miners do work, and seem to be working pretty well. There were three, well packed, clean, and new. Fans all blow down, they only have two drilled holes in the bottom of the back plate to see the LEDs, and they all use the newer style fan mounting which is much better than those stupid spacers of yore.

Put them all online and tried to read them with the BFL Commport tool. Well well well, they all do not respond, the tool thinks they are mining. Whatever the software load it looks to be different than normal. That's odd, I'll have to reflash them but I thought I would take a look at the statistics first.

Speeds are not bad. One is at 8, one at 7.7, one at 7.0. The two with green dots on the back are the fast ones, the red dot is a slower one. I can see how BFL is doing things.

Taking them apart they use the normal new style heat sink, which blocks the front vents somewhat. Yuck, I don't recall if my older ones do that, will have to check. Pulling a heat sink showed a thick pad of heat sink compound (ie: krud), I took that off and put on dabs of Radio Shack heat sink compound. Much better.

These things run hotter than my older jallies, not sure why. Temps were almost 50c, blowing down on the FTDI chip is probably a good way to fry it. Switched one of the fans, temp is at 45c. Bit better but still hot, odd.

Took one of the units and put it on the torture table for another chip from lentbt. Two chips came today, 4 more ordered today, guy is selling very good stuff. I recommend. Chip went on fine with the preheat to 350f for 5 mins, then 450c for 90 seconds this time after using a thin coating of flux and aligning the chip. Don't go by the markings, use a magnifying glass to look at the balls. They must be aligned perfectly, otherwise you're wasting a chip.

Put fan on pointing down and left sides off. Unit is at 48c, hashing 12gh, three lights on back. Nice. Will take another one to 12gh tonight, then when I get the extra chips will probably boost both to 16gh then do something else with my remaining chips.

Overall, good product, but running hotter. I'd recommend flipping the fan if you're running it with the sides on, otherwise take the sides off and look into replacing that crap on the bottom of the unit.
2682  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: BFL Monarch - Delivery Dates on: December 28, 2013, 02:14:45 PM
Hi,

Few days ago I ordered 2 Monarch cards from BFL.

When I ordered they say delivery is estimated in October/November.

Now I see the first batch is sold out (http://www.butterflylabs.com/monarch/)

But the delivery dates they publish for the sold out dates are... "November/December"

Looks like they got another month delay just few days after they start taking orders...

If they finish the "tape out" few few days ago and at that time they estimate 60-90 days what can change now to get an estimation of 90-120 days.

With 60-90 days was a risky bet to buy... with 120 is a suicide.

I know may I have been an idiot buying from them.

Regards


Tape out? Have they got that done yet?
2683  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL Announces More Vapor Ware! on: December 28, 2013, 02:12:03 PM
This will earn about 0.1 BTC per day IF it ships on Dec 30 and will decline quickly to 0.025 BTC per day as HF and CT ship their backlog and everyone else continues shipping.
I would say they are worth around 2.5BTC or about $2400 IF you get them ON TIME.


exactly say no to these fucktards. Vote with your wallet. Think first and don't buy later.

No. Just hope more people get the message.
2684  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Least reliable ASIC company? on: December 28, 2013, 02:11:08 PM
That sure is some significant margin there.
2685  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: WHAT! :( Butterfly Lads won't deliver the Monarch Till March or April:( on: December 28, 2013, 02:09:59 PM
What still no tape out?
2686  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL Product Failures / Underperformance. on: December 27, 2013, 08:44:38 AM
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/post-sales-customer-service/5887-word-about-customer-service-shipping.html

Quote Originally Posted by BFL_Josh  View Post
Quote
We are nearly at the end of the tunnel and the future looks very bright indeed.

Quote
As everyday passes with a piece of hardware that arrived broken I disagree. Bad enough I know you're going to ask me to pay more and wait longer (again) just to get what I wanted in the first place....

3 days, no response.

Shipping broken product out the door doesn't count as done.

Quote
Bit of a sweeping statement, how many out of the 1000 units ship per day are defective? Nobody will post "mine arrived and it works" all you get are people with issues who post, sometime multiple times


Quote
I have ordered (and received) 2 miners. A Single which arrived last month, and a Jalapeno that arrived Tuesday. Neither worked when it arrived. I had to RMA the Single. The new one worked perfectly!

The Jalapeno actually does work, but the power supply that arrived with it does not. I hooked it up to another 12V DC power supply I have and it works (somewhat). It does not provide enough current, so it only hashes for a short time before having problems. So now I'm waiting to hear what I need to do to get a replacement power supply.

Although I wish I could say differently, I am disappointed with my BFL experience.


Quote
I'd like to send my 60gh/s back to them now ( it's broken too after 2 weeks of mining .. at least I got that out of it!  ) ... could you give me the address I should send the machine to for the RMA? Any other tips would be appreciated. thanks


Quote Originally Posted by BFL_Josh  View Post
Quote
We have a less than 1% failure rate on our miners.

Quote
That you're aware of... Failure rate also doesn't take into account those miners running under spec that won't be sent back. I really hope the Monarch runs go off without a hitch, if they do, I might buy another piece of BFL hardware when you get to third gen. The whole Jalapeno thing really left a bad taste in my mouth.


Quote
Saying sorry doesn't put the $1500+ money BFL lost me by accidentally skipping over my order due to a undocumented "error" in the system. There was no expedited shipping, there was nothing but a "we're sorry." I had to contact BFL for them to even realize the error. Saying sorry doesn't fix the issue with my broken power brick which would be costing me additional money if I didn't already have a pc psu to use. Saying sorry doesn't replace the under-performing 60 GH/s unit I have which equates to lost profits. I know for a fact I have been ignored because my original account was banned and all my posts were deleted. I sent emails from my gmail account and have never had a reply for WEEKS going on MONTHS. I left messages at the 800 number and no one ever replied. All I want right now is for BFL to fix the items which are under a warranty they are legally obligated to honor. I'd like this to occur in a TIMELY manner so I can concluded my business with them. At the rate things are going, I'll not have an RMA till after December and the resale value of the Singles will be horrible.


Quote
I'd like to put my 2 cents in this post.

Josh, I totally understand where your coming from on your end that your backed up and finding smart people is hard. Until I've seen this post, I didn't see any responses or anything (forums or email). You also know that for every day that we are not mining due to a failed miner is a loss on our end after waiting over 6 months for it. My Miner has been dead since the 7th (I had it for less then 4 weeks), that's 10 days that I've lost in mining time and so far that's a loss of 1.247 BTC, which at the current rate is over $750 and I'm expected to have to wait an additional 2 weeks (maybe a month due to the delay of JUST the RMA #) for a miner when its becoming harder and harder to mine?

I'm not too happy with the fact that all I see are posts in the forums about failed miners (w/ no responses from official staff), It makes us think twice about future purchases. I also don't buy the 1% failure rate, I know a decent amount of people that had bought miners from you guys. Every single person has had ether the unit itself or the power supply fail, even a failed power supply is still a fail and should be counted. I also have to bring up the fact that even prior to shipping units, your customer service team has had less then satisfying results. It took me 10 days just to get a standard template response back in June, Really does not sound like you guys focused much energy on customer service since shipping and from my point of view it has just gotten worse.

Quote
I don't buy the 1% figure either. If they only had to deal with 10 failed units a day, their customer service wouldn't be so completely overwhelmed. The true figure is surely a multiple of that. Plus BFL is lucky that so many customers can take apart and fix their own shoddily assembled units, or they'd have even more to do.

Plus they're still six months behind on shipping everything but the minirigs, so there's obviously a lot of e-mail traffic complaining about that.

A first baby step would be to channel the inquiries, with separate, dedicated e-mail addresses for RMA requests, skipped orders, and other problems, instead of a single unmanageable queue, so priority cases can be dealt with effectively. Another would be implementing an actual ticket tracking system. Whatever system or methods they're using now are obviously painfully inadequate.


Quote
How about this, Josh? It's been nearly 4 weeks since your mea culpa, but I don't see much progress. Are you taking steps to improve your customer service response? Judging from the many angry forum posts and my own experiences, I'd say you still have a way to go yet.

In my specific case, I sold a 7 GH unit on eBay recently. It worked perfectly up until the time I packed it up, but the buyer says the power supply shorted out the first time they plugged it in. They sent an e-mail to rma@butterflylabs.com (which you set up on my suggestion - you're welcome), but apparently that e-mailbox is now just as clogged as the office account, because they've been waiting over 3 days without a response. Because the buyer isn't getting a response from you, they opened a Paypal dispute with me and Paypal has frozen my funds until things are resolved.

In other words, your completely deficient customer service is having a negative impact even on people who aren't dealing with you directly. Please shape things up.

Quote
Out of the 60 units we bought, I had 3x that were only 30GH (1/2 speed) and 1x DOA. So my small sample size is 8% failure rate. I assume this is the real number BFL will start to see months after the units have shipped.

The reason BFL is only seeing 1% might be because they have a really bad RMA department and people are having issues opening RMA requests. Also the failures we saw were a couple months after the units arrived.

Quote
I bought 6 Singles and 2 blew up. My failure rate is 33%.

I'm waiting a month since requesting my first RMA and a week on the second RMA.

I'd gladly take a credit on a Monarch or mining contract.
2687  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL Product Failures / Underperformance. on: December 27, 2013, 08:40:23 AM
Quote
2688  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Official BITMINE CoinCraft series 28nm ASIC miners thread on: December 26, 2013, 10:15:36 AM

I'm sorry but this can't hardly have been a CE compliant setup, did it come with a metal case or a plastic case made of fire retardant plastic?

In the above example, it was the PSU that caught fire. An Antec, and a fairly highend model at that;  Im sure they have the required certifications.

ANyway, Im just pointing out miners are not without risk.  Electrical fires are nasty, take whatever sensible precautions you can. At the very least invest a few euro's in a smoke detector.



+1 Isolate any units you buy is sound advice and a get a fire extinguisher situated nearby.

Code:
Fire extinguishers with a Class C rating are suitable for fires in “live” electrical equipment.
Both monoammonium phosphate and sodium bicarbonate are commonly used to fight this
type of fire because of their nonconductive properties.

http://www.brkelectronics.com/faqs/oem/what-do-the-abc-ratings-mean-on-fire-extinguishers


Quote
http://forum.kncminer.com/forum/main-category/hardware/25328-fire-woke-up-to-sound-of-smoke-alarms-and-smell-of-smoke/page2

Kurt (KNC)

Super Moderator

19th December 2013, 10:10 AM

Hello,

It is extremely unfortunate that this has happened to you. We are extremely glad that despite the fire, you are safe and unharmed.

Most, if not all modern power supplies have:
- Over current protection (OCP)
- Over voltage protection (OVP)
- Short circuit protection (SCP)
- Over power protection (OPP)
- Over thermal protection (OTP)

The fact that your power supply set on fire, suggested that one or more of these industrial grade protections have failed.
It is good to hear that your miner is working as it should, if you have any issues please contact support.
2689  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: [Open Hardware Project] Hive & Wasp - Prototypes Coming in December 2013 on: December 26, 2013, 07:44:02 AM
Project work is still ongoing no rest for the EE Elves at the WPC workshop and PCB fabrication is 24/7 at the local West Coast US plant we chose for prototyping the PCB's. Note that the parts and the schematics have been ready for a week which means some prototypes soon... very very soon.

Members note the next meeting time. 1000 PDT Seattle 28th December or 1600 GMT.

2690  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: [Open Hardware Project] Hive & Wasp - Prototypes Coming in December 2013 on: December 26, 2013, 07:18:28 AM
Note we are currently building a team of WPC members to handle the PR / Marketing for us as we really need to have multiple contact points so that we limit the WPC's exposure to a single point failure. Ideally we will have a website up to have most of our communication and updates there and post here only on a weekly basis.

Remember we have the IRC Channel is located on the freenode IRC network.

#WPC-Public (public)

If you don't have an IRC client, click here to visit the channel with your web browser.

Downloads

Windows or Linux:  http://xchat.org/
Colloguy for Mac:  http://colloquy.info/
All: http://hexchat.github.io/downloads.html
2691  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: [The Wasp] 28nm ASIC Miner Open Hardware Development Project on: December 26, 2013, 07:15:30 AM
Note we are building a team to handle the PR / Marketing for all of the WPC because we all agree that multiple contact points are much better than a single point failure. The website will be going up soon to have most of our communication and updates there and post here only on a weekly basis.

Remember we have the IRC Channel is located on the freenode IRC network.

#WPC-Public (public)

If you don't have an IRC client, click here to visit the channel with your web browser.
http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#WPC-Public

Downloads

Windows or Linux:  http://xchat.org/
Colloguy for Mac:  http://colloquy.info/
All: http://hexchat.github.io/downloads.html
2692  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: [The Wasp] Logo Design Contest !!!! Ends on Dec. 31 on: December 26, 2013, 07:09:14 AM
The more options we get the better.

Like to see different directions; wasp or no wasp logos all good.

Keep the coming.
2693  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL Product Failures / Underperformance. on: December 26, 2013, 04:44:27 AM
I've had one of my Little Single PSUs die, and just recently a SC Single PSU die. BFL RMAd the first one, and is in the process of RMAing the second. Not a huge issue.

Don't really trust the PSUs a whole lot, so I plan on switching them to ATX PSUs relatively soon. And moving to 80Plus Gold will also help with efficiency no doubt.

more or less the same here: my jally PSU died 6 months after delivery. however I had flashed the firmware to 8.1 Ghs so no warranty for me. I knew that before flashing it though.

also this full disclosure: my SC 25 I ordered arrived @ 31 Ghz from the factory. 6 months after I ordered it. and I never used the included PSU (it didnt exactly instill  confidence with its looks and feel), I use the antec basiq 500 watt that powers the computer. its been running a few weeks now.

but take this away if nothing else: bfl power supplies are absolute junk. there is no UL mark or number on them for a reason.

My miners from BFL all work fine, the power supplies however NOT SO MUCH.

I reported two dead power supplies to the RMA email address within 3 days of each other, got one replacement.
Still waiting, been 20 days

Not going to go with the ATX route given the failures reported and safety concerns of the owners that have already posted and complained about the PSU's?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=344105.msg3691914#msg3691914 <-- You tore apart some of the BFL units you own why exactly?
2694  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: How to file a FTC complaint against BFL's illegal business practices on: December 25, 2013, 05:27:03 AM
Le Bumpage for those that missed this.
2695  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL Product Failures / Underperformance. on: December 25, 2013, 04:31:32 AM
I'm not going to read 10 pages of BFL bashing, but I will chime in.


Most if not all the posts are like yours minus the happy results of RMA. Where it gets messy is when others troll. Specifically slok, inaba and bcp19 instigate off topic posts and pretty much all of their replies are ad hominem attacks and nothing to do with the product failures and under performance and I would recommend anyone actually reading through the thread to just skip over those even though they were reported they have not been removed by the mods although a few have been a lot remain cluttering up the thread. Or simply click IGNORE for those 3 and the thread cleans up very nicely as would 100's of other threads funnily enough.

You might want to review the on topic posts as a BFL customer as it is worth a look through about the failures, under performance and the lack of prompt email response from BFL time and time again. Hopefully most of the posts are on topic and not BFL bashing but rather providing more than enough evidence to prove that there is something beyond random chance happening with these failures or in other words statistically significant.
2696  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL Product Failures / Underperformance. on: December 25, 2013, 04:06:18 AM

Bick, you're crazy...


That might be accurate... but you know what maybe if we actually shame them publically enough they will take responsibility.

Code:
"United Breaks Guitars" is a protest song by Canadian musician Dave Carroll and his band, Sons of Maxwell.
It chronicles a real-life experience of how his guitar was broken during a trip on United Airlines in 2008, and the
subsequent reaction from the airline. The song became an immediate YouTube and iTunes hit upon its release in
July 2009 and a public relations embarrassment for the airline.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGc4zOqozo

My concern is with making it brutally evident that there is a serious disconnect between underperformance and product failure and what passes for RMA and resolution of customer complaints at BFL. If just one person avoids BFL then the hours spent tracking these failures is not a bad thing at all. Here is hoping many people avoid purchasing BFL in 2014.

Quote

Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz has written: Consumers “will embrace only the companies and brands they trust and with which they identify”.

Code:
How BFL should be handling customer complaints?

Do: Listen closely to the complaint – Before you start quoting your company’s policy or trying to deflect blame,
try actually listening to your customer’s complaint. Put yourself in their shoes for a change. Are they making a valid point?
What are they asking for you to do to resolve it? And remember, if one customer is complaining about something, you can
be sure they’re probably not the only one who has encountered this situation. Most customers don’t bother complaining
because they don’t think it does any good. Instead, they just take their business elsewhere.

Don’t: Try to argue with your customer – Look, dealing with an upset customer is never fun, but you have to handle the
situation professionally. This means you don’t need to get in an argument with your customer. Handling complaints isn’t
about trying to win an argument. It’s about minimizing damage and trying to ensure customer satisfaction and loyalty.

Do: Use complaints as an opportunity to improve – Every complaint represents an opportunity for your company to improve.
Look closely at every complaint you receive, and figure out what you can do to keep that situation from ever coming up again.

Don’t: Think losing one customer is no big deal – If you really were losing just one customer, then maybe it wouldn’t be that big
 of a deal. But that’s not the reality. They used to say that upset customers would tell about a dozen other people about their
poor experience. Well, with Twitter, blogs, forums, consumer complaint websites, and other online outlets, today’s disgruntled
customer can tell thousands of people about their poor experience with your company. Never forget that.

Do: Be proactive in finding complaints – Speaking of customers venting their frustrations online, you should always know what’s
being said about your company online. Monitor brand mentions with Google Alerts, Twitter alerts, Board Tracker, and other similar
reputation management tools. When you find these complaints online, try to fix them if possible.

Don’t: Beat customers over the head with your company policy – Upset customers don’t want to listen to you quoting back your
company policy to justify why you can’t help them. Sure, it’s important to have policies in place, but you can’t view every single
situation in black-and-white terms. That’s when you end up losing the human element. Be reasonable, and be flexible.

Do: Go the extra mile to resolve your customer’s complaint – Remember earlier when I said “Most customers don’t bother complaining
because they don’t think it does any good”? Well, you can be the exception. If there is anything you can do to make sure the
customer walks away satisfied, do it. Here’s a tip: Ask the customer what they would like for you to do to resolve the situation.
Chances are, they have already have an idea of what they think is a fair solution, and this helps to put the ball in their court.

Don’t: Make the same mistake more than once – Mistakes happen. It’s a part of doing business, but you should never make the
same mistake twice. This might mean retraining employees or changing your policy, but by all means, do whatever it takes to avoid
making the same mistake twice.

http://www.ereleases.com/prfuel/handling-customer-complaints/
2697  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL Product Failures / Underperformance. on: December 25, 2013, 03:37:44 AM
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=383536.msg4129770#msg4129770


Quote
My Jala ordered@7ghs is running at > 50% error rate with 6 ghs and your support tells me to send it back at my costs (germany - usa) to get it repaired, knowing that my shipping costs will just make things even worse.

When I ordered you said new orders will be shipped in 2 months. After 6 months you shipped mine, finally. No need to say anything more.

Compare that to KNC.

My Jala ordered@7ghs is running at > 50% error rate with 6 ghs and your support tells me to send it back at my costs (germany - usa) to get it repaired, knowing that my shipping costs will just make things even worse.

When I ordered you said new orders will be shipped in 2 months. After 6 months you shipped mine, finally. No need to say anything more.

And since you haven't returned it for RMA, you're what Josh considers "a happy customer". BFL has *a lot* of "happy customers".

We all should read *a lot* as statistical significance.
2698  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL Product Failures / Underperformance. on: December 25, 2013, 03:09:17 AM
Quote
Statistical significance is the probability that an effect is not likely due to just chance alone.[1][2] It is an integral part of statistical hypothesis testing where it is used as an important value judgment. In statistics, a result is considered significant not because it is important or meaningful, but because it has been predicted as unlikely to have occurred by chance alone.[3]

1. Coolidge, Frederick L. (2012). Statistics: A Gentle Introduction (3rd ed.). Thousand Oaks, CA: SAGE Publications, Inc. pp. 1–38. ISBN 1-412-99171-4.
2. Norman, Geoffrey R.; Streiner, David L. (2008). Biostatistics: The Bare Essentials (3rd ed.). Lewiston, NY: pmph usa. pp. 46–69. ISBN 1-550-09347-9.
3. Sirkin, R. Mark (2005). Statistics for the Social Sciences (3rd ed.). Thousand Oaks, CA: SAGE Publications, Inc. pp. 271–316. ISBN 1-412-90546-X.

The number of failures and under performing units posted here alone has statistical significance as defined above as it is not chance or fate but a measurable failure on BFL's part producing these units.

Now that we have settled that debate with a clear definition of statistical significance how about BFL gets to work solving these problems and helps customers mine?
They need to stop trying to cover up and misrepresent the situation as 'pure chance' for these failures and under performance it is time to fix the problem as that is what good companies do. Finally address these failures and take responsibility and ultimately resolve the problem to these customers satisfaction. At this point no one should be putting any money in BFL for anything used or new given what is posted just in this thread alone. BFL = Krampus.
2699  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Least reliable ASIC company? on: December 24, 2013, 02:45:14 PM
I will take you up on that bet.  Find and escrow and send the 2000 BTC and I will do the same.

You would think he would first pay off the other 3 or 4 bets he hasn't paid first before taking on more? Wonder how the IRS is going to like reviewing them books.



You can smell the hypocrisy from here and the IRS audit is coming.
2700  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL Product Failures / Underperformance. on: December 24, 2013, 10:09:46 AM
But if you look at the products themselves, it is not all bad.  Pretty good actually.

The number of issues with regards to BFL products as posted only in this thread respectfully begs to differ from your personal experience but I would like to hear an assessment that logically explains how the failures and under performance stated is not an indicator of significant quality issues with BFL products.
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