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5501  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: FreiCoin (FRC) discussion (was FreiCoin (FRC) for TRC, PPC, LTC or BTC) on: January 07, 2013, 02:54:09 PM
Proposed Freicoin Notations


Standard Notation:
Use the symbol ⌠ to represent Freicoin in everyday transactions. The symbol is a truncated 'long s'. It is a simple symbol to write by hand, has low ambiguity with other symbols in the alphabet, and can be used to replace the decimal mark.

You can access this symbol by holding Alt and typing 244 on your numeric pad on Windows.

Alt-244. Go ahead and try it.

Examples:

6⌠ = "six freicoin"

6.001⌠ or 6⌠001 = "six and one thousanth freicoin"


Scientific Notation:
For large or small values we suggest scientific notation. For this purpose we use the German character 'Eszett,' or ''. The eszett is a ligature of ⌠+s, which we intend to represent "freicoin, scientific."

You can access this symbol by holding Alt and typing 225 on your numeric pad on Windows.

The symbol uses following formula: xy = x * 10 ^ y

Alt-225. Go ahead and try it.

Examples:

6.0016 = 6001000⌠

6.001-5 = 0⌠00006001 or 0.00006001⌠




I'm not so sure about this idea. It may be controversial.


I'm not a fan.

I would rather just

355.6 frc
or
355.6(with an F like the bitcoin  ฿)


How about  24.9356╒ ╛  

or 24.9356

5502  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: why I liquidated my FRC on: January 07, 2013, 05:38:16 AM

I'm a fan of alternate crypto and hold small amounts of various kinds in the (very unlikely) event that they will someday become widely used and more valuable. If anyone wants to buy some BBQcoin, just let me know. Smiley

But I sold off most of my FRC this evening, and I'm going to leave this blockchain alone for a few reasons:

1. Sending 80% of mining output to a Foundation is just a bad idea. The tiny minority of people who even know about cryptocurrency are already highly suspicious of central authorities that claim to be working for the good of the community. Our lack of faith in central oversight is what drew us to crypto in the first place. Plus, we've all see the bitcoin community beset with scammers, ponzi scheme operators, and several big wallet heists. Even if we have faith that a Foundation has our best interests at heart, one careless or corrupt member can blow it for everyone.

2. The Foundation should have firmly established goals and milestones before the blockchain went public. Who are the Foundation members? What is their vision for FRC? Who's working on the fundamental infrastructure, like a currency exchange? When asked, Foundation members say, "come join the community and you can help set the agenda!" The Foundation needs a clear vision and a roadmap to achieve it so people can get excited about contributing.

3. There should have been an exchange opened when the blockchain when public. Nobody knows what FRC are actually worth. So why would anyone want to spend the time writing up a formal grant proposal, then execute their project, when their payment may be worthless?

4. FRC is designed to discourage hoarding. As a result, anyone with coins is motivated to get rid of them ASAP. I originally planned to buy a few thousand FRC and offer to buy goods with them to help stimulate the fledgling economy. But as other people accumulate coins they'll want to get rid of them too. The constant selling pressure will keep the exchange rate dropping with no end in site. As more coins enter the market the price will fall even further.

5. The demurrage feature is way too visible for the average person to ever embrace. As I've held FRC in my wallet I've watched my balance steadily creep down each day. It's discouraging. I buy 1000 coins today, and tomorrow I've got 999. My gut reaction is get rid of the coins before they "go bad". Even though I know intellectually that my fiat is depreciating, psychologically the in-your-face demurrage of FRC makes me want to literally "pass the buck" to someone else as soon as I can.


1. Possibly, dumping FRC is one option the second would be to get involved in the foundation.
2. Agreed to a point.
3. Agreed to a point.
4. Agreed to a point.
5. It is working obviously at is intended. To create velocity.

5503  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] FRC TOTAL IS OVER 10,000,000 COINS IN LESS THAN 3 WEEKS on: January 06, 2013, 05:07:35 PM
How do you propose making decisions with this fractious bunch without some sort of executive body? This body is not acting like a cohesive community, it's more like a troll zoo. I understand in some cultures the drive to consensus is important enough it subsume individual desires, but that is not universally true, especially here.

The other difficulty is that most of the potential user base for this coin does not know or care it exists. How should we convince people that they want to use a currency before it exists enough to get them to participate in the decision making process? You, I and many others who have not been involved in the (over 1 year long) development process for the concept and code missed our opportunity to set the rules for this coin, asking for them to change their principles now and alter their path is a bit of an insult.

"You might run with the money, and we don't trust you, but we want you to slavishly obey our demands for your own creation" is not exactly the most persuasive of arguments.


Participatory Politics and a number of proposals I have made are worthy of a look on the issue in the FFoundation threads. Unfortunately the devs didn't really work out much of anything for this foundation prelaunch and in some ways that is ideal if you ask me that way we can develop hopefully and as quickly as possible a system that allows for fractious and antagonistic stakeholders to be involved as much as they want to be and that is democratic at it's core.  There is always apathy in any given system particularly political. Look at US elections nearly 50% didn't vote who were eligible to do so. If people MINE and don't want to get involved then they can't really bitch about it then can they? But there are some ideas already posted to help this at least get started towards something that is not a USURY or CLEPTOCRATIC grab for special interests.

I am part of the community I hold freicoin and I have mined some freicoin woot 3 total. So I have a stake however small in seeing Freicoin move forward. The RULES for the coin are in place because they are trying an EXPERIMENT to tweak and change the nature of cryptocurrency, so if you don't want to participate, as many have said before, you can decide not to mine, trade or even talk about it. I suspect that you are here as others is because you have a vested interest maybe infinitely small like mine but still a stake in the FRC. Why do you care?

Well let's talk about that while we are setting up the FFoundation. Unfortunately those same individual desires are often used to segregate and marginalize those who didn't adopt early or didn't get in with the technocrats from the start or say have a huge mining rig at the start either so simply give up right? Just don't try? The idea is not to say oh let's just screw it we can't change human nature... the idea here is what if you can build a system that is truly democratic. You are falling into the same trap... can't do it... it is impossible... human nature etc etc etc. The problem is there is evidence that this form of currency has worked before and even though this Foundation Trust has not been handled ideally there is hope that it can potentially generate a real change. Do you want to participate or not? Simple as that right? I don't understand why so many people see only the potential downside when you have a great opportunity to be involved in something that could be different. I could be wrong, they could pocket all the freicoin and screw us all over but as long as I can have a seat at the table to talk about it then I will. Why don't you join us?

Scrybe most if not all of this is not replying directly to you but rather I was trying to pile on and agree with how you see this clowns continually rundown the coin without very much in the way of constructive critiques. I suggest a real look at the economics of the REAL world and how marginalized most of the human race is today would be a great starting point for a lot of these people who sit comfortably in their rooms staring at a computer screen sheltered from any number of horrors that human beings face daily. There is something a little more tangible in making an effort with this currency. It has real potential to move cryptocurrency further. The devs of the coin I get the sense understand this... if they screw this up they would be world premiere douchebags to waste the potential of this coin. Time will indeed tell but so will our involvement.

If you build it... they will come... is that too optimistic an approach for people to get behind FRC? Not sure but the FFoundation could be instrumental in keeping this coin from the ash heap. Maybe putting ideas to forum in the foundation thread would be more productive. I have already had to copy and paste some of you comments there Scrybe.

5504  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: FreiCoin Faucet on: January 06, 2013, 03:31:00 PM
Can you use the slide Captcha instead?
5505  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] FRC TOTAL IS OVER 10,000,000 COINS IN LESS THAN 3 WEEKS on: January 06, 2013, 02:53:25 PM
But most other crypto-currencies are the exact opposite of what you are saying. Satoshi only had "full access" to bitcoin while it was still in his head. Once he open sourced the protocol it was free and no one had centralized control. Thats the whole point- to build a system where you don't need to trust anyone.

And? How many times do you need to repeat that?  What about a fully democratic system where the entire user base is afforded a large share of the decision making or if you will great share of the currency? Maybe if you look at this not as a deficit rather as positive you can see the potential for this to work as a liberating factor for the currency. Even if it modestly adopts some new way of distributing the coins democratically, not based on usury like you advocate, or the nepotistic-cleptocracy that your limited imagination seems to have for the foundation. Clearly, what we want is neither and all were are asking is it possible to get a better model or template to build from for an even better currency next time.

Anyhow moaning about it and not offering any suggestions really gets us know where. At some point you just have to ignore the baby crying in the bedroom and let it fall to sleep so the grown ups can get on with their evening. Might want to read a little more in depth about the theory and then also help the FFoundation write the rules and formulate ways to dispense the trust democratically. How many more posts can you write that are same thing anyhow... are you not interested in finding alternatives and bettering currency or are you simply of the opinion that you and a select few should get to build the biggest baddest machine and you get to hoard the coins and watch them grow in value till you all are Freicoin millionaires? That is the real greed... the real problem is that very fact people like yourself have little or no imagination of the potential if you get this to work. There are alternative solution that actually are democratic and could help usher in a better world, seriously no bullshit there, and not through foundations with a small board but through a community working together to find a solution and to accept all ideas and opinions a participatory economy and society. What you advocate is the status quo and the person with the biggest fastest most cost efficient mining rig should win. Very very limited scope and perspective.
5506  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: FreiCoin (FRC) Fork WITHOUT 80% Of Coins Given To FreiCoin Foundation on: January 06, 2013, 02:00:39 PM
So I take this fork / 51% takeover of FreiCoin is now dead.

Well, I don't get it. TF apparently doesn't want it to take off.
What was his change to the code anyway? Why is it a problem that the foundation already has the coins? If moving these coins never makes it into a block there is no problem.

Read the thread... the answers are all there. If you want your own coin that has none of these features... create it. Right? Since the topic is dead might as well lock it and have you start a new topic about your super duper new coin without the 80% trust.
5507  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Merge Mine FRC - Start a bounty? on: January 06, 2013, 01:31:28 PM
Well here is one idea then... put them up for sale with the buyer not only specifying how many they will buy for how much each but also the charity to which the fiat they buy them with is to be donated. Still some kind of vetting of purported "charities" is probably needed though so people who have thoughtfully set themselves up nice cushy jobs as employees of self-created "non profit corporations" can't just use it as a faucet to help feather their nice little "non profit" nests.

-MarkM-


The key stumbling block is setting up a system that is democratic and limits fraud?

Re: Freicoin Foundation development thread
by Bicknellski Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:38 am

Quote from: Bicknellski link=http://www.freicoin.org/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=126
What about participatory nested council that are also faucets as way of distributing the funds and selecting your FFounation members?

In that way to get your coins you would have to participate in the selection of individuals from these nested councils that allocate 50 spaces each at the faucet. So what would happen is you would have to vote on issues etc and be 'paid' for your participation. Would that work? As I see it then you would be able to promote people to the FFoundation from a nested council that also servers as a way to distribute FRC to the whole community right away. Basically the faucet can only turn on if you get 50 unique IP's and use the swipe catpcha. Around that Nested Council Faucet stats on votes and public announcements could be posted and votes tallied.
5508  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Merge Mine FRC - Start a bounty? on: January 06, 2013, 01:25:51 PM

So FRC requires every person using the currency to get anything done? Wow. That's horribly inefficient.



Or Participatory Economics... or better yet PURE DEMOCRACY. Why would we want that? Imagine a world where you can have real representation about decisions that effect you? How about getting involved in the foundation and help with ideas as it seems you use FRC we need you to take part.
5509  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Newbie restrictions on: January 06, 2013, 11:33:27 AM
Due to a mass of trolling, only established posters are able to post in non-newbie sections. You are considered "established" if you have spent 4 hours online and have made 5 posts (new topics or replies).

If you have really good posts, you can post a request for preemptive whitelisting in the appropriate topic.

Also:
- Newbies cannot upload their own avatars.
- You must have made one post in order to send PMs.
- You need 10 posts to put a link in your signature.

Note that it may take up to 10 minutes for your PM or posting permissions to be granted. (The system automatically checks every 10 minutes and promotes people as appropriate.)

2 hours later... still no links in my sig... nice.
5510  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: A foundation with 80% of the coins can never work. on: January 06, 2013, 10:31:29 AM
Maaku,

Would you give up 80% of your wages to a stranger?

No? Then don't expect miners to give you 80% of their earnings when they could mine something else and keep 100%.


Your message that miners should trust some faceless, and inevitably corrupt, foundation with their earnings more than they should trust themselves is delusional. You have fallen to uncontrolled greed.
Those coins were never the miner's to begin with. Why do you feel entitled to them?

If I mine coins I see them as mine. They were created with my equipment, my electricity, my time. If you plan to steal them before they are even created I'm going to avoid you like I'd avoid any other thief. No miner will gave away what he could otherwise keep no matter how pretty your reassurances are.

But you are blinded by greed and can no longer see anything but dollar signs. Look at this from the miners viewpoint.


Greed? I don't have mining rig... I am not part of the dev team or a FFoundation member. You are limiting the scope of what is possible. If you mine it you are accepting the 80% and the 5% and if you don't mine it you accept the 80% and 5% and if you trade it you accept the 80% and 5%. So now that we have settled that how about actually taking a leap of faith and get involved in DEMOCRATICALLY dispensing the trust? Rather than having a small foundation board decide why not the whole community? Isn't having an 80% stake initially of the currency for all better than a fraction of that in a few hands? I think you want to be a 1% and hold as many coins as you can compared with the alternative is having a currency that actually is useful and used for trade not accumulation of wealth. Very very limited view you have and ultimately very UN-democratic of you. Basically you want to screw over the users of the currency so you can mine and get rich... well Freicoin is not that kind of currency.

The intent is there all you need to do now is get involved and ENSURE that the 80% is dispensed democratically. You are debating changing the Freicoin into something that it is not and that debate is over. It was over months and months and months ago. Move forward and find the best way possible to dispense the trust. What is so difficult about that concept? Furthering DEMOCRACY in currency not something that interests you? You would rather have a few pools of miners control it all right from day one and there would be little hope of reversing that. Look at Bitcoin now. Look at it very carefully. Freicoin is offering everyone a freedom to be part of the FFoundation and offer your suggestions. Much much more democratic.

You are the one being blinded with greed... you want cryptocurrencies to be a way for you and your ilk to get rich at the expense of the currency community as a whole. Sad that you have no vision of the future of humanity, let alone the Freicoin.
5511  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: A foundation with 80% of the coins can never work. on: January 06, 2013, 10:00:01 AM
.. anyone who wants FRC to succeed De-facto wants the foundation to succeed.
No, I want freicoin to succeed, the foundation wasn't part of it when it was announced. And I really don't like the foundation.
I am not a minority here, at least on the latter.


It was posted in several place prior to it being launched as has been indicated many times already.
5512  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: A foundation with 80% of the coins can never work. on: January 06, 2013, 09:48:59 AM
+1.
Freicoin and its demurrage feature? Interesting and new.
Foundation controlling the coins, where a bad decision by the devs can wreck the economy? Solidcoin.
Human greed is a dangerous issue.

Anyone who has been involved in our forum discussions knows that we felt the distribution system of BTC was just as flawed as the indestructibility of BTC.  We has said our inspiration was the Worgl and other similar currencies like the Chiemgauer that operates today, these and other community currencies are issued far more equitably then present mining rigs could hope to achieve.  If this came as a shock to you then it's because you haven't been reading our development forums.

Seems to me a lot of disinformation about the FFoundation is being flung around. If you actually go to forums and see what is being proposed you might be slightly more persuaded by the reasoning for a FFoundation that can equitably and democratically dispense the trust. Simply stating the obvious limitations or dangers is something that has already been done in the forum on this topic. The core concept is ensure that the currency is able to create movement so it is used not sat on by those who wish to accumulate wealth and stagnate the currency. If you are actually interested in having a truly free currency then a system where we all have a voice in how that trust is distributed is best. Have a look at the thread and offer some input. Simply stating it won't work or people will pocket the coins etc is known already... how about working out how we need to distribute the coins in fashion that is ultimately in the interest of the WHOLE community rather than one segment? http://www.freicoin.org/freicoin-foundation-development-thread-t81.html#p767
 
What I see from these posts against a foundation is more of knee-jerk reaction rather than any concerted effort to understand the underpinnings of having the currency actually circulate and be used as a currency should. I hope people have actually made some effort to understand the why Freicoin is setup the way it is rather than simply dismissing it out of hand. I for one consider the ideas offered compelling and the experiment should move forward as planed considering the historical significance of previous efforts of this nature. If done well the FFoundation would be a model for democratic reform especially in terms of currency and economics and possibly politically as well. The ideal would be that we can circumvent the obvious pitfalls of Bitcoin and pushing cryptocurrencies forward rather than stagnate. You can actually make history rather than suppress it with such conservative and frankly narrow opinions. If you get involved you can be part of a real change in how we use money. I think it is well worth the experiment. If you don't like the premise don't mine it or trade it seems simple enough but I think giving it a shot is a much more progressive approach don't you?
5513  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Bitcoin Businesses and Developers, Let's Get Started! on: January 06, 2013, 09:39:26 AM
Interested in discussing Bitmine farm potential in Indonesia where price of electricity is at .06 - .10 per Kw/h. Drop me an email at http://canadianmontessori.org/.
5514  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Trust No One on: January 06, 2013, 09:32:42 AM
Quote
If you are thinking that I might not be trustworthy, since I am writing this post about the issue, you are approaching the appropriate level of paranoia.
Grin

So true it hurts!


5515  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Trust No One on: January 06, 2013, 09:26:36 AM
Seriously. Don't trust the exchanges, don't trust online wallet services, don't trust your anti-virus software, and don't trust anybody online.

If you absolutely must trust someone with your bitcoins, for the love, choose carefully!

  • Do you know their full name?
  • Do you know where they are located?
  • Have they demonstrated trustworthiness in the past?
  • Are they asking you to trust them? (red flag)
  • Do they have insurance?

Insurance? Impossible, you say. Not so!

When I needed people to trust me to hold bitcoins for a contest, I deposited 50 bitcoins as a bond with a well-respected forum member, so that even if I did something stupid and lost people's money, they would still be reimbursed. You can read about it here: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=10008.0

Consider carefully who you will trust. With bitcoins, elaborate scams may be profitable. For instance, someone may develop trust for their user name over many months with small transactions on this forum, then take advantage of that trust to make off with a lot of money. Such a scam would only be worth doing on this forum. No other forum in the world would be worth the effort.

If you want someone to hold your bitcoins for you, there are NO online services that have the transparency and security to make me comfortable using them for storing bitcoins for more than a short time in small amounts. The only way to do it is like I did - choose someone whom you believe to be trustworthy, and approach them. If they approach you, or in any way say or insinuate that they are a trustworthy person to hold your coins, STAY AWAY.

If you are thinking that I might not be trustworthy, since I am writing this post about the issue, you are approaching the appropriate level of paranoia.

If you want to store your bitcoins with maximum security, there are lots of resources about how to do it, such as this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Securing_your_wallet

Here's my summary:

1. Put all your coins in a new wallet that has never connected to the network
2. Encrypt that wallet with the maximum security you can find, using the most secure password you can keep track of
3. Delete the plaintext wallet, and distribute the encrypted wallet to every piece of physical media you own, store it online, and send it to several people you trust

Don't think you can generate and remember a secure enough password? Create a super-long password, and store clues to help you remember it. For instance, your password clue file might say:

My standard password + My throwaway password (backwards, all caps) + &#$%@ + First two sentences of first paragraph of page 19 of my favorite book (include all capitalization and punctuation) + My wife's mother's middle name + My son's favorite superhero + My favorite number times 8734 + food my wife hates (backwards, all caps) + 9-digit number stored with my paper will + 10-character password stored in my safety deposit box + . . . .

You can go on in this way to create as long a password as you want. Store this password clue file with your encrypted wallet, and optionally encrypt both with a simple standard password to keep out snoopers.

In this way, not only can you recover your coins from your "savings account" at a later date, if you get hit by a chicken truck tomorrow and die, your loved ones can probably piece together your password and recover the coins too (better make sure you trust them, and that between them they have or can get the answers to those clues).

I recommend that you practice your wallet encryption and recovery a few times with a small number of coins, until you are very comfortable with the process before you try it with the bulk of your savings.

And remember, this is how most bitcoins services get started:



Comic from: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=13903.0


Voice o' Reason. Grin
5516  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: 1 BTC Loan? on: January 06, 2013, 09:19:39 AM
Hello all, my name is Noah! I was wondering if anyone wanted to loan me a bitcoin or 2 so i can start seeing how this bitcoin thing really works... I would pay you back what you loan me +50%... I just havent had the time to stop by CVS and process my bitinstant stub... Any loan under 2 btc would be returned +50% because thats all I can afford.

I will lend you one Freicoin... then you can pay me back whenever... ok?
5517  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Introduce yourself :) on: January 06, 2013, 09:16:26 AM
http://www.indiegogo.com/montessoriobservation/x/2021145 <--- check it out.... gives you all you need to know.
5518  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Newbie restrictions on: January 06, 2013, 08:19:18 AM
Due to a mass of trolling, only established posters are able to post in non-newbie sections. You are considered "established" if you have spent 4 hours online and have made 5 posts (new topics or replies).

If you have really good posts, you can post a request for preemptive whitelisting in the appropriate topic.

Also:
- Newbies cannot upload their own avatars.
- You must have made one post in order to send PMs.
- You need 10 posts to put a link in your signature.

Note that it may take up to 10 minutes for your PM or posting permissions to be granted. (The system automatically checks every 10 minutes and promotes people as appropriate.)

2 posts... 3 to go. Grin
5519  Local / Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian) / Re: Bahasa Indonesia on: January 04, 2013, 11:29:26 AM
At the request of user welyoe I have just added Bahasa Indonesia as a target language for MultiBit translation.
If you would like to help him in translating the 400 or so texts remaining please have a look at:

http://translate.multibit.org

Terima kasih.

Nice... like to see more people trading in BitCoin here in Indoensia this will help
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