Just an update, I did try to send transaction with un-updated ledger nano s using Electrum from ubuntu, and I got it to work once and then it would not work again.   Here was a useful guide if you want to try it https://electrum.readthedocs.io/en/latest/hardware-linux.html#  I then downloaded and accessed the correct older appimage ledger live that was the one newer than the release date associated with the firmware on my ledger nano s.  Using this appimage I was able to transfer successfully (without being forced to upgrade firmware).  

[am developing the view on all key storage methods that unless doing something addressed in a release better to not upgrade firmware, release version etc]

Thanks for all the responses.  I would like to note that I did find additional information on the firmware release notes pages:
https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/360014980580-Ledger-Nano-X-firmware-release-notes
https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/360010446000-Ledger-Nano-S-firmware-release-notes

This gives a date as to the specific firmware version on the device, so that can be paired with the release of the ledger live previous version from here:
https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/360020773319-What-s-new-in-Ledger-Live-

Thus one can determine the correct older version of ledger live to go with whatever firmware version is on their device. 

The problem is I have not used the actual device for quite some time and they have updates very often.  So I could pick a date like Jan 1, 2023 which is about 10 updates ago and try it.  It might also tell me to update.  If I try to go back one by one it would just take a long time.  Also I believe that if I go back too far that may also be a problem in that I have a newer firmware than the ledger live.  Tending towards trying it with electrum and seeing how that goes.

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According to their website: https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/360020773319-What-s-new-in-Ledger-Live-?docs=true

Ledger Live 2.62.2 - Released on June 28, 2023
[/quote]  
This tells you the what they changed in the ledger live.  My meaning was could I look at the actual device (now I notice I can see a version of the firmware, like 2.0.x on the device itself - version of firmware of course doesn't match Ledger live version). So what I would like to know is if there is a way to tell the actual version of ledger live to use with the specific firmware on the device itself.  

So the ledger live is the beginning point that forces a firmware update when doing a transaction, if one does not want to update there are a couple of options,
1.)  Rollback and user earlier version of ledger live.
2.)  Use ledger with electrum
3.)  others

So in exploring #1 I found all previous versions of ledger live : https://www.ledger.com/ledger-live/lld-signatures

What I am wondering is if there is a way to know what is the proper version of ledger live to use with the current firmware on my ledger device?  Is there a way to figure this out?

Is there a good offline open source linux cli tool I can run to generate a key pair on air gapped computer?  (not sure where to post as is not hw wallet, but seeking offline method for key pair generation)

So is a ledger firmware update safe? 
source: https://cointelegraph.com/news/ledger-clarifies-how-its-firmware-works-after-deleted-tweet-controversy

Seems like the fear that the wallet provider is the attacker kind of goes away with open source projects, verify signature, etc. 

I think there was speculation that even those not using the recovery service would be subject to some security concerns, https://en.cryptonomist.ch/2023/05/17/ledger-nano-x-possible-security-issues/

I will try electrum with the existing ledger with old firmware, the firmware is not all that old.  

The reason to update the firmware was that ledger prevented doing any transfers with old firmware, forcing the upgrade. 

So as I explain above part of the difficulty is in doing the transfer.  AFAIK to transfer from ledger I must upgrade firmware, which I prefer not to do. 

So I should explain a bit more.  I have an existing ledger device and all is working OK.  What is really annoying is that if and when I go to access the device to like send something off it the ledger system will force me to upgrade the firmware.  I really don't want to upgrade firmware any more.  So that is the motivation.

As far as the as what I might do:
1.)  Try to see if I can use the ledger with the old firmware on electrum.
or 2.)  go to the air gapped computer and create a new wallet from the ledger seed.

Is it possible to create a new wallet on electrum with a ledger seed?  Electrum runs on tails on an air gapped ubuntu box.  Is this a good guide?  https://coinguides.org/import-ledger-trezor-seed-electrum/  Things to watch out for?

I will ask this new but related question here as someone using Electrum on Tails might be able to help.  Feedback so far has been great by the way, thanks all   So I will be running Tails offline and then using offline signing in Electrum and use usb thumb drive to go back and forth to broadcast.  I would actually like to do a similar technique with ETH, and see most of the offline signing options available involve using another device like android, but I would like to use the app on Tails the same as Electrum.  Is anyone doing this and what is the app they are using to allow offline signing of ETH transactions and then port over to separate computer to broadcast, same flow as with Electrum? 

Interesting about scanning the QR code, what do you use the scan it?  Not sure how I would have the airgapped computer read a QR code.

Thank you, thought about this after posting the question also.  All makes sense now, the offline wallet always can be 'zero' because its only job is to sign transactions.  It does nothing else.

I am a little confused about one point and how this works.  When I set up a 'air-gapped' offline wallet (running off tails for example), how does Electrum know about an incoming transaction?  So say I send the new air gapped .01 BTC, how would it see it to add it to the balance so I could later create a transaction to send it and then get it signed on the offline wallet?

Thank you a bunch for this.  Still somewhat used to a 24 word seed so this is very helpful. 

I notice that ledger allows for a 24 word seed phrase, electrum uses a 12 word seed.  Also I see that a 24 word seed from ledger can be imported into electrum.  Is a 12 word seed generally viewed as a safe route from a security point of view? 

I know this is a different thing since the words were known, but it is interesting that the same technique would not work with a 24 word seed.
https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-advocate-cracks-known-12-word-seed-phrase-in-minutes

I am just trying to understand the general setup for Armory.  To use an offline air gapped wallet you need two different machines, a view only and the air gapped computer that will hold the private key, correct?  On the view only machine you must download the entire bitcoin blockchain, around 450gb, correct?  Can both be done on ubuntu? 

ฺBluetooth:  Played around trying to get it to work, apparently only for telephone app.  --> 

I will play around with other ports.

thanks

It is kind of strange, I have a new PC that was prebuilt, it is a Lenovo i7.  It has a number of existing USB ports and in addition I had a 7 port USB hub installed, it is a PCI-e card.  The hub can read and write fine, I have done a number of tests.  The hub can connect up to a Ledger Nano X, but not the Ledger Nano S, the preinstalled ports work fine.  I imagine it is some kind of driver problem, but it seems strange that the hub can effectively read/write files, can connect fine with the X, but can't see / connect with the S.  Any tips on what I can do to resolve the problem?  

others have said it well also, why invest?  Well to do nothing is to leave it in fiat so therefore we need to find something that goes up over time and is a store of value, gold, silver, real estate, mona list paintings, all have shortcomings we may not want to deal with.  Bitcoin is an option that addresses a lot of shortcomings of other store of value items.