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141  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 17, 2015, 02:24:10 AM

Sidechains are workable as of now under the existing protocol.


So this irc never happened?

Quote
00:51:22 <gmaxwell> the altcoin is also a bitcoin node, and monitors bitcoin for coins assigned to the altcoin, and then permits someone on the altcoin to emerge those coins from thin air.. and then when you want to send them back you make a special transaction in the altchain and prove you did it to bitcoin.
00:51:23 <adam3us> gmaxwell: i suppose the other thing is it itself requires bitcoin changes, perhaps non-trivial ones, and that is part of the reason for the exercise.
00:51:46 <gmaxwell> yea, unfortunately it requires changes to bitcoin.
00:52:18 <gmaxwell> we could _almost_ do it in script without the disabled opcodes, but there are enough little corners that I suspect we can't.

Which "altcoin" are they talking about here?


you name it; they aim to sidechain it.
142  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 17, 2015, 01:24:13 AM
iCE please, i beg you, take your meds!  

Haldol 1 tab po qid, as directed,  # to be dispensed:  10000 tabs,  1000 refills.

4 pills a day keeps the doctor away!
143  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 16, 2015, 11:57:35 PM
"iCE, look.  i told you, you need to take your medications every day.  otherwise, the convulsions become uncontrollable. 

please, for your own good".  Cheesy
144  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 16, 2015, 11:41:31 PM
iCEBRAKER, brg444 you are losing hard, and throwing your swords. I don't see the point.




i prefer, "losing your cookies".

or, "projectile vomiting" will suffice.
145  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 16, 2015, 11:40:24 PM
August 15, 2015:  The Day that iCE went crazy.
146  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 16, 2015, 11:37:52 PM
oh my:

147  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 16, 2015, 11:10:38 PM
Go on smoothie.  Go on evoorhees.  Fuck off to greener, censorship-free pastures where may you attempt to attack Bitcoin all you want.

Don't let me stop you.  You're free now...move into the light...   Cheesy

iCEBLOW throwing his weapons.  or, blowing his weapons.

or, in medical terms, engaging in "projectile vomiting".

You are also welcome to fuck to https://voat.co/v/bitcoinxt, where your XT junta will not be "suppressed" by moderators enforcing rules.

Why are you supporting theymos' "epitome of authoritarianism" and "censorship" by gracing his forum with your presence?

i think i need to change your resume from bombastic to ballistic.  the projectile vomiting part still applies however.
148  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 16, 2015, 11:02:59 PM
"Supply creates its own demand"

you always say this as if it is a one way function leading to XT gloom.

i think the opposite is even more likely, "demand creates it's own supply".  i've talked about this before, as internet traffic demand from XT increases thru user fee based tx's, ISP providers could be thrilled to be able to monetize all the new traffic as they have long envisioned via the new internet economy.  growth of the online economy is something they have been preparing for years for.  all that fiber optic cable being laid across Africa as we speak could bring on billions of new internet users all of whom will have to pay some degree of connectivity fees.  same goes for Western economies.  i'd bet these ISP's love economic growth way more than oppressive gvt regulations choking that same growth.
149  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 16, 2015, 08:49:40 PM
SC's are clearly altcoins.

Different class.  'Sidecoins' are most accurately described as a proxy for Bitcoin.  Use of sidecoins impacts the macro-economics of Bitcoin in pretty much exactly the way that use of Bitcoin itself does.  'Alts' are completely stand-alone and as such are competitors.  'sidechains' are more like colored-coins and in some ways it might be argued that this is what they are at their core.

i see sidecoins as inflationary.  the author can choose any issuance or inflation schedule he pleases to be backed by scBTC.  when viewed this way, the entire fiat money system could be viewed as a sidechain with USD as the sidecoin with gold backing at least before 1971.
Quote

Sidechains are a disaster for people hoping to do analytics on the blockchain down to an individual level because they need to tap into every sidecoin's system.  Since some sidechains will be specifically designed to make that a challenge the task becomes impossible.  Disaster!

It cannot really be argued that sidechains are going to steal Bitcoin's thunder by robbing it of transaction fees since everyone on the bloatist side is dead set against meaningful fees.  It's pretty clear to me as someone who has been in the business that to the extent that revenue is anticipated by Bitcoin infrastructure operators, it is to come from harvest of intelligence data and either processing it themselves or selling it to a processor.  This is the way most internet services work these days.

total misunderstanding of this argument.  you're talking about individual tx fees which can stay cheap w/o a block limit.  what will grow is the total aggregate amount of tx fees to pay miners as the reward dissipates and as the userbase grows unconstrained.  these meaningful fees will allow Bitcoin to keep secure by growing mining security.
Quote

A nicety for some is that the highest value for intelligence comes from 'full capture' so there is an economic incentive to achieve this.  Near-monopolization of operating infrastructure would also would make coin white/black-listing relatively workable just as Mr. Hearn has predicted for years.
 

as the userbase spreads out, so will full node and mining distribution.  this will be good as we need to move away from the areas of highest concentration today, that being N. America and Europe.
Quote

brg444 and Adam spent months teaching us how any type of coin ala Truthcoin can hitch themselves to a SC in addition to the migrated scBTC.  in fact, have you EVER heard Blockstream place any type of restriction on what kind of speculative asset can be supported on a SC?  answer: no.  they are a form of dilution, hence inflation, to Bitcoin and will turn Bitcoin into a WoW trading platform.

The economics of 'speculation' in a full-peg environment are no different than people simply using native Bitcoin heavily.  People are perfectly free to speculate in native Bitcoin, and to date that is what has happened in the economy mostly I think.

You bloatcoiners may have plans to implement control measures in XT which preclude speculation as far as I know.  With the infrastructure needed for tainting, control of speculation would, in fact, be tenable.

edit: slight (between ngix gateway errors.)

no, SC's encourage speculative money to chase sidecoins, scBTC, and/or any other speculative asset they choose to sell on the SC like Truthcoins.  given that these SC's are bound to be less secure, they will have much greater failure rates than if they just bought BTC itself or invested in businesses that deal in BTC directly.  what we want instead is for speculators to invest in BTC itself to drive the market price much higher.  which is actually needed to allow large $million tx's to occur on MC w/o causing volatility.  that, or invest in merchants/businesses that can service the userbase growth that a no block limit will encourage.
150  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 16, 2015, 08:25:42 PM
The only possible attack here is that over the next several months MP will explicitly reject blocks from nodes advertising they are 70010 protocol. For this to have any material effect though, he would need >50% of the current network hashing power to also explicitly reject those blocks, so that people running XT are disincentivised to continue doing so.

I have joined btc way too late to have a clear picture of MP's "arsenal" consistency, but it's not the first time that I heard a respectable member of the community to refer to his disruptive potential in a serious manner. To make a long story short, is he really so powerful?

absolutely not. 

i've never heard of him influencing anything except for the bunch of Cripplecoiner's around here who seem to idolize him.  or maybe he's a father figure.

there'e probably plenty of Bitcoiner's who have more coin than him, if that is even a measure at all of power, which i doubt.
151  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 16, 2015, 05:15:37 PM
SC's are clearly altcoins.  

brg444 and Adam spent months teaching us how any type of coin ala Truthcoin can hitch themselves to a SC in addition to the migrated scBTC.  in fact, have you EVER heard Blockstream place any type of restriction on what kind of speculative asset can be supported on a SC?  answer: no.  they are a form of dilution, hence inflation, to Bitcoin and will turn Bitcoin into a WoW trading platform.
152  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 16, 2015, 05:09:54 PM
It ignores the fact that for big blocks to be happening, there must already be 75% of hashing power signalling support for it. When that happens the first big block can be mined, before that bigger blocks are not mined.

So now you have 75% of the network working on a chain that supports bigger blocks and mining bigger blocks, whilst 25% try to mine a chain that only contains <1MB blocks.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out which chain will *very quickly* becomes longest.

you had to go and ruin it, didn't you? 
153  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 16, 2015, 05:07:31 PM

ty for that.  oh my gaud  Wink:

154  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 16, 2015, 04:49:19 PM
I can understand that theymos is in a very difficult spot - he is probably right (in a literal, technical sense) in the assertion that XT as a theory is on topic, but as a viable, downloadable solution it becomes an alt-coin. Until it reaches consensus,

But what troubles me is the zeal with which this policy is still being executed across the platforms. At this point, who really benefits from a suppression of debate?
(bear in mind that we are free to discuss it here and many other topics)

During the fall of the Berlin wall, there was a pivotal moment when the border guards finally recognised the futility of their duty, and allowed people through unchallenged.

Way out of the mess: Core adds a largeblock patch, different from gavins but who cares. Othere XT patches are delayed to make them look important.

If not, they go the way of the Xfree86 developers - into the fog.

Next fight is over the name. I suggest renaming XT to core by april depending on 75% supermajority as expressed by just doing it. Smiley



It would have to follow a BIP. But isnt this scenario what MH and GA wanted all along?  The failure to get this resulted in XT.

Exactly. It is the way out, no fork, everybody is happy (some just a tad butthurt).




i'm not sure about that.  no one, esp me, wants to live under a Blockstream totalitarian regime that only will act when they have a gun pointed at their heads.  look at some of the kludges they've slipped into the code w/o anyone knowing according to Hearn's forking article.
155  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 16, 2015, 04:38:43 PM
But I don't agree that 75% of hashrate or whatever is network consensus.

I predict that miners won't (vote to) change unless there is network consensus.



one down:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3h6lk8/toomim_bros_supports_democracy_and_bitcoin_xt/
156  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 16, 2015, 04:36:52 PM
Side chains are certainly altcoins.



Yeah and they don't run on top of Bitcoin. They run parallel like any other alt coin.

Yet once again it is okay to discuss side chains on reddit? Lol

and there is every incentive by a SC founder to make it dominant over the MC.  why?  b/c it would force all current Bitcoin cold wallet holders to migrate to the new dominant innovative SC which itself has it's early adopters/designers who stand to make a fortune by flipping their founder's coin to the panicked Bitcoin migraters.

thus, every corporation/entity that consults with Blockstream to design an innovative, proprietary SC will, before they pay a dime in consulting fees, force Blockstream to sign an airtight non-compete to prevent any backporting of said innovation back to Bitcoin.
157  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 16, 2015, 04:25:59 PM
If XT is so great, no one should have to sell it to anyone, people will just switch.

There is avast difference to discussing XT vs "selling" XT to users.

Kind of hard to discuss it if reddit moderators keep deleting posts/threads related to XT and moving XT discussion to alt coin section of this forum.

People can only switch if there is enough discussion about XT.

They won't just wake up one day and go "i'll with go to xtnodes.com and download the latest client" without anyone previously mentioning it on a forum etc.

Ultimately users will choose what they want in the end.

All of this back and forth is drama and kiddy BS. Pick a stance and stick to it without the ad hominem or personal attacks (<----directed at those going out of their way to bash others).

You can discuss proposals to change the Bitcoin main chain, but a forked chain that is not also the main chain is an altchain and not truly Bitcoin.

[–]theymos -1 points 4 days ago
Discussion of hardforks is not silenced. That's why a possible hardfork has been discussed ad nauseam on /r/Bitcoin for the past few months. XT-specific submissions are removed because XT is not Bitcoin.
permalinksavecontextfull comments (189)reportgive gold

...yet XT is using the exact same chain/protocol as core aside from the future possibility of block size increase.

Not an alt chain in any sense as it has been used on other coins like litecoin that are completely separate chains and protocols.

XT operates just like CORE as of right now.

and preserves the past historical ledger perfectly and reissues identical coins on the XT chain.  you don't lose.
158  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 16, 2015, 04:17:15 PM
still ramping:

159  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 16, 2015, 04:16:44 PM
I have been thinking about the mail from the nickname Satoshi Nakamoto, whoerever it is. His argument is not about the technical side of the debate but about politics and long term future.

I think people need to talk less about the technical implications and more about the political implications of this fork.
 
The argument of this guy is that if the XT fork is sucessful, that means that in the future someone with enough political influence can make a fork successful. That means that one days the President of the United States, who definitely has enough political influence, will be able to push a succesful fork. And we all know what that would mean: no more 21 million limit. We will be back to central banking.

The argument that the community will decide what is its best interest is invalid. Aristotle already knew that democracy turn into demagogy. And history and economics show that the outcomes of democratic process don't align with the best interest of the voters.

Basically the problem is that: by forking we are choosing a democratic political process, and it's the very same process which lead to central banking and is currently unable to stop it.

Just because someone makes a client (XT or original satoshi client) doesn't mean they make people choose to use that client.

If that were so then Satoshi himself had political influence thus negating your point entirely.

I don't see anything that XT is doing other than allowing people a choice to switch their client to one that supports bigger blocks (and a few other minor things).

Ultimately people choose what they want to use.

Political influence lol.

Sorry but I make my own choices by thinking with my brain, not who is in the lime light.
It's people who have chosen central banking.

Trusting people for making good choices in monetary matters is a recipe for central banking. Populism will always win at the end of the day.

no, the Blockstream core devs already had their own Jekyll Island moment in the backwoods of California early last year.
160  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 16, 2015, 03:45:01 PM
Go on smoothie.  Go on evoorhees.  Fuck off to greener, censorship-free pastures where may you attempt to attack Bitcoin all you want.

Don't let me stop you.  You're free now...move into the light...   Cheesy

iCEBLOW throwing his weapons.  or, blowing his weapons.

or, in medical terms, engaging in "projectile vomiting".
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