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3561  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 18, 2014, 03:37:03 PM
The point being that nxt is a feature platform before a currency and other coins can take advantage of these features by integrating nxt core into their client.

i'm comforted to hear that 5% of the NXT stakeholder market is a confirmed thief who will have forging rights on all future blocks.  perhaps he will attempt to write even more of a stake into his holdings?

I guess you didn't hear that 85% of the nxt was returned to bter? And that now many more users are aware that they should be using the multigateway to trade rather then storing their nxt on a centralized exchange?

what did u have to do to get the thief to return 85% of the stolen NXT?  and will Bter ever stop using a hot wallet?  and will NXT users really learn to not leave NXT on an exchange if they've been bailed out?
3562  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 18, 2014, 03:34:58 PM
https://twitter.com/cypherdoc2/status/501391679942049792
3563  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 18, 2014, 03:28:07 PM
The point being that nxt is a feature platform before a currency and other coins can take advantage of these features by integrating nxt core into their client.

i'm comforted to hear that 5% of the NXT stakeholder market is a confirmed thief who will have forging rights on all future blocks.  perhaps he will attempt to write even more of a stake into his holdings?
3564  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 18, 2014, 06:24:57 AM
Just so we don't forget:

“$29,000,000,000,000: A Detailed Look at the Fed’s Bail-out by Funding Facility and Recipient” by James Felkerson."

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/12/bailout-total-29-616-trillion-dollars/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheBigPicture+(The+Big+Picture)
3565  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 18, 2014, 04:23:31 AM
Oxford study?
 Huh
no it won't.  the Bitcoin core devs have never introduced a patch or rollback to save any of the multiple exchanges that have been hacked and most likely never will. all updates are thoroughly vetted while gaining a consensus from the community before introduction.  what's your point?
Most likely?  What Consensus?  Vetted by whom?  What community?  Aren't many people running older qt versions even now?
The point is that holding and mining are two separate activities and can even sometimes be opposed to each other.  But unlike gold for example, mining and using are very much interdependent in bitcoin.

http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-true-costs-gold-production/

yes, there is a clear pathway to submitting patches and/or updates that goes thru the core devs.  all changes get discussed ad nauseum ahead of time and consensus is formed before they're introduced into new versions of the core protocol.  the community is free to chime in and express opinions.  the point is that there is a process, not some off the cuff patch to rollback a hack as was just done by the NXT core devs.

i'm not sure what you mean by there being opposed interests btwn hodlers and miners.  i'm both and there's no inconsistency btwn both of my activities.

most ppl don't update their versions out of laziness or a reluctance to create unforeseen problems in their current operations that the updates might introduce.  it's not b/c they fundamentally disagree with the changes.
3566  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 18, 2014, 03:45:52 AM
Then why did the rollback not happen?

b/c the community disagreed with them, i suppose, out of apathy, disdain, or confusion.  who knows.

the important thing, imo, is that the devs were irresponsible in not gaining a consensus before throwing a patch out there this serious.  simply to reverse a hack, mind you.  to my mind, this introduces considerable uncertainty into the NXT protocol when their main devs are willing to make a questionable decision like this to support/save a vested partner Bter for either political or financial reasons.  you'll never know what they'll be willing to do NXT  Wink
and of course there's no chance of that ever happening to bitcoin.  LOL
Wasn't it discussed to not have previous halving done?  The asics saved it that time.  What will save that discussion at next halving?  Currently theoretically it would cost only about 2% of bitcoins total valuation to 51% attack it.  And it's not going to get better because holders of bitcoin and miners have opposing monetary interests.  Mining currently is like a bitcoin annuity since fees are negligible compared to block reward.  The hope is when that transition to mining mainly for fees rolls around it will be enough.  There are no guarantees it will be.  It's interesting that this thread makes fun of gold needing to be dug up, transported and etc... and how bitcoin is so much better but it's ok to have bitcoin mining when it can be considered wastefull.  Maybe in the future instead that big gold rock picture we'll be laughing at big bitcoin mining operations the same way.

gimme a break.  ppl die gold mining, let alone get seriously physically abused.

what about the Oxford PhD's study do you not agree with?
3567  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 18, 2014, 03:32:13 AM
Then why did the rollback not happen?

b/c the community disagreed with them, i suppose, out of apathy, disdain, or confusion.  who knows.

the important thing, imo, is that the devs were irresponsible in not gaining a consensus before throwing a patch out there this serious.  simply to reverse a hack, mind you.  to my mind, this introduces considerable uncertainty into the NXT protocol when their main devs are willing to make a questionable decision like this to support/save a vested partner Bter for either political or financial reasons.  you'll never know what they'll be willing to do NXT  Wink
and of course there's no chance of that ever happening to bitcoin.  LOL
Wasn't it discussed to not have previous halving done?  The asics saved it that time.  What will save that discussion at next halving?  Currently theoretically it would cost only about 2% of bitcoins total valuation to 51% attack it.  And it's not going to get better because holders of bitcoin and miners have opposing monetary interests.  Mining currently is like a bitcoin annuity since fees are negligible compared to block reward.  The hope is when that transition to mining mainly for fees rolls around it will be enough.  There are no guarantees it will be.  It's interesting that this thread makes fun of gold needing to be dug up, transported and etc... and how bitcoin is so much better but it's ok to have bitcoin mining when it can be considered wastefull.  Maybe in the future instead that big gold rock picture we'll be laughing at big bitcoin mining operations the same way.

no it won't.  the Bitcoin core devs have never introduced a patch or rollback to save any of the multiple exchanges that have been hacked and most likely never will. all updates are thoroughly vetted while gaining a consensus from the community before introduction.  what's your point?
3568  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 18, 2014, 03:27:38 AM
Yikes:




That little "2" all the way to the left may not be there much longer.

yes, it's called the "flush":

3569  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 18, 2014, 02:31:06 AM
Then why did the rollback not happen?

b/c the community disagreed with them, i suppose, out of apathy, disdain, or confusion.  who knows.

the important thing, imo, is that the devs were irresponsible in not gaining a consensus before throwing a patch out there this serious.  simply to reverse a hack, mind you.  to my mind, this introduces considerable uncertainty into the NXT protocol when their main devs are willing to make a questionable decision like this to support/save a vested partner Bter for either political or financial reasons.  you'll never know what they'll be willing to do NXT  Wink
3570  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 18, 2014, 01:32:08 AM
Bitfinex BTC swaps at intermediate term highs (shorts). 

Time for a short squeeze:

3571  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 18, 2014, 01:11:29 AM
back under 1300:

3572  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 18, 2014, 12:42:08 AM
Keep buying dips.
3573  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 18, 2014, 12:39:28 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-O--m7Uz80&sns=em
3574  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 18, 2014, 12:21:29 AM
lemme know when NXT gets outta this funk:



Will do. It will be likely sooner then you think. Some killer features are right around the corner... the amazing multigateway being the first piece of that puzzle.

i'm sure it will be amazing!

right after they change the code again!
3575  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 18, 2014, 12:17:01 AM
gold down already $5.50.  struggling to hold 1300:

3576  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 18, 2014, 12:14:09 AM
lemme know when NXT gets outta this funk:

3577  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin now looks like a mature technology on: August 18, 2014, 12:05:20 AM
http://www.downside.com/
3578  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin now looks like a mature technology on: August 17, 2014, 11:49:41 PM
...


that was beautiful. couldn't have done nearly as well myself.  Cheesy

Nagle, you seem to have difficulty observing trends.  Bitcoin has seen astounding growth, just over the past year, never mind before that.  i won't go too hard on you; i don't have the energy right now but the mere fact that BitPay is offering free tx processing is going to bring in legions of merchants who will be able to decrease prices, to then be followed by consumers wishing to avail themselves of those discounts.

Bitcoin is growing worldwide and ATM's are spreading like wildfire.  it' perfectly normal to have lull periods like we're seeing now only to be followed by explosive periods of new growth.  it's coming.  don't be left behind anymore than you already have.

3579  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 17, 2014, 11:33:52 PM

The Nxt community was debating "rewriting history" to rollback the theft from Bter!  The users become the attackers, and in their echo chamber they decide to make up whatever truth appears convenient at the time.  If you don't see this, then you don't want to see it.  

On the topic of a single malicious cabal attacking the network, the cabal needs only 51% of what is currently staked, which may be significantly less than 51% of the money supply.  Furthermore, the cabal can attack with coins they once had but have since sold.  This is the nothing-at-stake problem (aka the history-rewrite problem).  This can be prevented with checkpoints or if the developers sign blocks as valid, but then your decentralized currency is no longer decentralized!  We saw this with the viacoin roll back or fork it and get rid of it.

Lastly, the idea that some special sauce known as "transparent forging" will require 90% of the critical resource to attack is a highly dubious claim.  I strongly suspect that the following PoX Theorem holds:

A malicious user controlling 51% of the critical resource X in a PoX distributed consensus system can attack the network.
  

Bitcoin was "rolled back" at one point in the early days.  Whether objective or subjective, no one wanted 92 billion bitcoins to remain in the blockchain and controlled by a single entity.  If that were to happen today I almost guarantee the miners would find a way to roll it back.  

The fact is nxt worked as advertised.  The developers released a patch to roll back the transaction but it was unsuccessful, proving that they did not have complete control over the network and the integrity of the currency remained intact.  POS is subject to similar game theory type stuff as POW.  Why would someone who has a large stake in the system attempt to compromise it?

We can debate whether POW or POS can be compromised, but the fact is cryptocurrency is proven to be sound money once relatively mature.  If 5% (or 7% in bitcoin's case - mtgox) of US dollars had somehow been stolen, you can be guaranteed that the federal reserve would have arbitrarily started a counterfeit program (2008 bailouts and QE).  Our systems are better and the beauty is users have a choice of POW or POS.

i see plenty of differences:

Bitcoin's "rollbacks" in the past were from code bugs, one of which was exploited to generate a massive output of invalid BTC's and the other which caused a fork.  an immediate consensus was gained from the community to patch the technical bugs with new code prior to it being released; otherwise repeated occurrences of the problems could reasonably be expected which threatened the long term viability of the system itself.

in NXT's case, the NXT stolen was due to a weakness in Bter's security, not a bug in the NXT code, let alone one that threatened the viability of NXT.  for crony economic reasons only, a rollback was offered in the form of a patch from the devs despite what looked like a consensus not to offer it.  this makes it much different from what happened in Bitcoin and was an expression of the biased motives of the stakeholders in charge of the code and that of the influence of Bter.  the next time something like this happens, no one can predict how they will act, whereas with Bitcoin, you can be sure no one will rollback code just to save someone some money.  

Except the fork never happened, for all the reasons you just specified, so none of that really matters. Thats really the biggest difference. It's open source software,  anyone can put up a version for people to use but clearly people didn't want to run it. It didn't happen this time and it's unlikely to happen next time.

it does matter b/c the NXT devs (not just anyone) were the ones to introduce the patch and thus have been shown to be susceptible to political and economic machinations/manipulations w/o even bothering to gain a community consensus.

edit:  and the NXT devs have the greatest at stake and thus the most to lose thus making their actions entirely self serving.
3580  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 17, 2014, 11:32:11 PM
HAHAHA im sorry but i find that absolutely hilarious lol not because i disagree, i do agree it is/will be, but because of all the pow buffs fighting the pow corner so hard and then someone, that so many pow buffs have put on a crypto pedestal and someone so high profile, turns around and says pow is dead... after all these PoW buffs have given him millions.. that is priceless!!!!!! Cheesy OMG LOLZ... hahaha

If Ethereum merged with BitShares and used DPoS it would be hilarious indeed.  I think my fellow "PoW buffs" would agree.  Personally, I don't believe this rumour, however. 
Funny thing about those projects:

BitShares (Invictus) was the sinking ship that Charles Hoskinson bailed from after he bailed from Mastercoin (and bailed from the Bitcoin Education Project before that), prior to bailing from the Ethereum project.

I wonder if there's some common thread between all those projects besides the fact that Hoskinson got involved with them, pumped them up, and bailed...

funny, i was thinking of Hoskinson's role in all these as well.
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