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741  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Devcoin on: December 02, 2012, 06:38:13 PM
Is it a secret what % of total DVC developers hold right now? I mean, the idea of investing resources into coin where small group is so
powerful that they can play with the value of the coin and even null it not just once but almost countless times is not my favourite one.

I wonder who and how came up with idea that 90% / 10% split is ethical.  Huh

"We get 90% of generated coins from now till eternity" does not sound to me like a good long-term stability plan, but more like ruler of all
rulers ultimate wet-dream-came-true.

In theory, it doesn't go to a small group of people, instead anybody who is doing open source development can get a share.

In practice, however, you might be right.

According to current rules, ~80% is supposed to go to projects which add value to DVC, and 10% to free form bounties.

I've asked about more concrete rules (like who is eligible) but got no answer.

742  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Invoices/Payments/Receipts proposal discussion on: December 01, 2012, 09:23:52 PM
Unless you have access to the full trust graph, you can't build a chain between yourself and the counterparty to prove you own the identity/nym which you are asserting.

Doesn't namecoin solve this problem?
743  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: A 6 month investment into Litecoin netted exactly the same upside as BTC on: December 01, 2012, 05:13:24 PM
Well, I just prefer it that crooks aka botnet operators can't easily mooch off the currency I'm using.
To me, it's a useful feature ... everyone can decide for himself.

Let's think about it...

On the one hand, some bad guys might be theoretically profit of LTC.

On the other hand, an average Joe with a GPU knows that LTC can be mined by average Joes like him, however BTC requires some expensive, highly specialized devices.

Won't Joe perceive LTC as a more democratic, open currency?

Note that Joe might not fully understand how ASICs work, he only knows that some highly specialized devices he doesn't understand are used to secure the network, and they are produced only by a handful of specialized companies. What if government is in this and it wants to control the currency?

I bet Joe would rather trust his GPU...
744  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Introducing Treazant - Bitcoin Without Reward Halving on: December 01, 2012, 05:03:13 PM
This is interesting. From a theoretical point of view the ever-decreasing inflation of Treazant isn't really that different from the 0 inflation of bitcoin.

It is different from miner compensation point of view.

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The differences really are in "adoptability":

  • bitcoins capped supply is ("there will never be more than 21 mio") is a great incentive for early adopters and gold-bugs. Bitcoin might not have gotten off the ground without this.
  • treazants inflation is a good argument against the "early adopter unfairness"-accusation (while early adopter reward is really still high)

Early adopter incentive isn't that much different at start. For example, after 12 years we talk about 18.37M Bitcoins vs 31.5M "inflatacoins", so Bitcoins are only 71% more valuable.

After 20 years Bitcoins are 2.6 times more valuable.

If we are talking about return on investment with many zeros in it (e.g. buying bitcoins in October 2009 would give you ~16000 ROI now), 2x difference does not mean anything.

So I'd say early adopters would get absolutely insane profit in any case, it's just that finite money supply has religious meaning for some people.

(OK, we might say that with finite money supply "early adopter" period lasts longer. But we cannot really estimate it.)
745  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Introducing Treazant - Bitcoin Without Reward Halving on: December 01, 2012, 12:58:49 PM
Of course, to a point.  But it does that through an inflation tax upon the entire currency base.  Thus it's not usage based,

There is a thing called "destructive fees", i.e. fees do not go to miners, they simply disappear. Destruction should cancel generation in theory.

How is it better then? It's more flexible. Miners do not have to charge fees to earn their living, instead they can affect activity. E.g. too many transactions -> larger fees -> more money is lost -> cost of money goes up -> overheating of economy is cancelled.

Your idea doesn't offer stability.  The voltility in the exchange rate has much less to do with it's generation rate and much more to do with it's relative demand.

Bitcoin volatility is caused by investors who buy bitcoins believing that they are going to appreciate in future.

This simply wouldn't be the case with inflationary currency, people will only buy it to use it.

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If you could peg your coin to some baseline, such as a national currency, you would have much less voltility due to the inertia that the backing brought with it, but then you couldn't have a predictable inflation rate.  And I can't even imagine how such a peg could safely work.

For example: Colored coins allow private companies to make their private currencies and peg them via open market operations. Of course, such currency is as reliable as backing company.
746  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Introducing Treazant - Bitcoin Without Reward Halving on: December 01, 2012, 12:47:22 PM
So ... are you selling all your Bitcoins for Treazant/Inflatiacoin?

LOL, no. I mean that if I'll ever going to start an alt-chain, it will likely have constant generation or something like that.
747  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Introducing Treazant - Bitcoin Without Reward Halving on: December 01, 2012, 12:52:44 AM

So I believe other currencies do have a chance. Bitcoin is great for long-term store of value, but people might choose something else for day-to-day transactions.

Really, why do you presume this?  What advantage would your unlimited version of Bitcoin improve upon the usability of day-to-day transactions over Bitcoin itself?

I already mentioned all the desired features.

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And what would prevent Bitcoin from incorporating that improvement?

Largely inertia. People do not want to lose their savings due to new features being implemented.

But also constant generation can subsidize transaction costs.

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The storage of value factor is an important feature for an exchange system, without it Bitcoin would just be another dollar substitute.

Sure, but we just need reasonably stable value, not constantly increasing one.

748  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Introducing Treazant - Bitcoin Without Reward Halving on: December 01, 2012, 12:45:42 AM
It's also much more attractive to the Austrian/libertarian types who can do the math, which is most of us.

My observations say otherwise.

As others have mentioned, you're free to fork the code and do your best with it; and no one will care if you take some actions to prevent your alternate currency from interfering with the Bitcoin network, and you call it something different.  Yet, this has already been tried many times, and every time has failed.  That's not because everyone but you is short sighted, either.

Time haven't come yet, my friend. Also it needs features which Bitcoin doesn't have, not just another generation parameters.

Also Devcoin is more-or-less alive, so it can work, apparently.
749  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Introducing Treazant - Bitcoin Without Reward Halving on: December 01, 2012, 12:38:10 AM
It will die like tenebrix and fairbrix, there's a reason why litecoin was the scrypt chain that won.

Well, currently get-rich-quick is the strongest motivation.

But perhaps a bit later people will care more about other features.

Obviously it takes more than releasing another shitbrix currency, there needs to be a real innovation.

Also, devcoin is more-or-less alive even though it uses constant generation.
750  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: LTC hash spike = BTC miners mining LTC and exchanging for BTC on: November 30, 2012, 11:43:24 PM
We need another cryptocurrency not reliant on hashing algorythm the USA thinks it owns. LTC value is rising because of the actions of certain US based bitcoin devs who believe the US = the rest of the world Smiley

LTC still uses SHA-256 even though proof-of-work is based on scrypt:

 * transaction hashes are double SHA-256
 * scrypt itself uses SHA-256 on some steps
751  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Introducing Treazant - Bitcoin Without Reward Halving on: November 30, 2012, 11:38:29 PM
The inflation actually tends to zero, and in concept, I like that, which is why I had once proposed it.  That coin could be created today, and it may very well be a "better" coin.  But it won't get popular, and won't get adopted.

What I had underestimated at the time I first proposed it was that the simple notion of "There Will Never Be More Than 21,000,000 Bitcoins" is such an important part of the appeal.  It is far more attractive than "There Will Be Inflation Forever, But At Least It Won't Be That Much".

Yes, it's much more attractive to Austrian/libertarian types who cannot do the math.

However, I think that that community is relevant only for bootstrapping. Once people will get familiar with cryptocurrency concept it will be adopted by people who really don't give a fuck, they just want reasonable stable exchange rate.

And at that point things like security, scalability, cost of transactions, exchange rate stability and features would matter more than pseudo-Austrian appeal. In theory, at least.

So I believe other currencies do have a chance. Bitcoin is great for long-term store of value, but people might choose something else for day-to-day transactions.

Constant generation rate means that:

  • there is less speculation; get-rich-quick and early-adopter bonus largely do not work in this case
  • fees can be close to zero because miners are paid out of generation
  • there is no reward-halving shock and uncertainty
  • no theoretic woes like accidentally discovered wallet makes you richest person on planet

So I'd rather bet on it.
752  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: /prog/ нужны программисты и форки on: November 30, 2012, 11:25:58 PM
>This is what "colored coins" do (see my signature)

Is this possible to regulate the monetary stock there?

Yes. With colored coins you can create, say, 10000 tokens, e.g. FOO-USD or XYZ-SHARES, sell some of them on market, then buy them back etc.

We simply use Bitcoin ledger system for accounting of our tokens.

In fact i couldnt invent the controling algorythm to set once and for all time, possibily because this is impossible( but i would think how to do it)

I think there s no need to tell you about the limitation of some unmanaged currencies like bitcoin.

It is a problem only if you want to make self-regulating, decentralized mining system. There is no mining with colored coins, we simply use already existing coins.

There is, however, some research on making value of currency roughly matching energy costs of mining. (See Eltase2's Decrits and Encoin. I admit I don't quite understand how it is supposed to work...)


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This is not a little problem, this is big problem which can`t be solved in this approach.
In fact investors are not stupid and they will not invest in someting which worls only for itself for long time.

Well, current capitalization of devcoin is around $70,000, that's quite a bit above zero.

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As a result it will lead to the situation in which money will be invested in perspective projects which increase the price of the currency

This is exactly how devcoin currently works: they are paying bounties mostly to projects which are supposed to increase price of devcoins.

The difference is that devcoin is more-or-less democratic and open.


Quote
PS  evaluate the quality of the translation?

Acceptable.



753  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Introducing Treazant - Bitcoin Without Reward Halving on: November 30, 2012, 07:49:41 PM
Only limited resources have value. Infinite resources worth nothing.

Here's your homework: suppose 50 coins are mined each block, forever.

What is inflation for year x?
754  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: /prog/ нужны программисты и форки on: November 30, 2012, 05:37:19 PM
а что такое devcoin, и как там платят разработчикам?..

Devcoin works exactly like Bitcoin except that miners have to send 90% of mining award to certain addresses.

Those addresses belong to people who do some important development and are chosen by devcoin community. So effectively people are paid for open source development out of miners' profit.

Since it can be merged mined miners are fine with that. The only problem is that somebody has to buy these coins on exchange to make them valuable.
755  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: /prog/ нужны программисты и форки on: November 30, 2012, 05:30:03 PM
So you expect many talented developers to jump onto your idea, but the thing is they are either working on their own ideas, or they work for $$$$$$.

In a sense, it is not just currency, but also stocks. 2-in-1. Maybe, N-in-1 Wink
(This part is still experimental, but it's worth a try - if it works, it is almost replace investment and venture funds, and even IPO!)

This is what "colored coins" do (see my signature), and they work on top of any existing chain, no fork is required.

(Although we are contemplating "ripplecoin" which would be a perfect host of colored-coin-like thing.)
756  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: PPCoin Criticism / Security / etc on: November 30, 2012, 03:44:44 PM
1) PPCoin developers are really awful at English Communication.
2) PPCoin developers are really awful at PR.
3) PPCoin developers are jealous and afraid of being copied/outdone. (open source, but not open interpretation of source)
4) PPCoin developers know something bad and they are hiding it strategically.

x) They know that design is half-assed, but it sort of works for now so they just don't care, hoping that in future problem will be solved.

Sunny King has no problems with communications and PR, he simply does not give a fuck.

757  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Multi-Sig for LTC on: November 30, 2012, 03:41:23 PM
Multi-signature is supported on protocol level for quite a while (from start?).

However, it is unusable without proper user interface and features supporting it.

I guess the main problem now is lack of transport: without signature transport we cannot make it work "automagically", and if it doesn't work automagically then neither merchants nor users want to use it.

I currently work on p2p exchange, and it requires pretty much same transport as needed for convenient mutlisig, so I'm going to implement it. Then it can be reused to make automagic, convenient multisig.

But first and foremost interest should come from merchant, service providers etc. If they want it to work then developers will add this feature to clients.

Otherwise we'll have this half-assed development where seemingly trivial feature is being developed for 1.5 years and is still not quite here.
758  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: LTC hash spike = BTC miners mining LTC and exchanging for BTC on: November 30, 2012, 03:07:45 PM
OK, why the fuck it went from 0.06 to 0.08 recently?
759  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: /prog/ нужны программисты и форки on: November 30, 2012, 03:05:10 PM
He wants to hire programmers to make a cryptocurrency with some unusual features, likely more centralized and "faith-based".

I doubt that it will work since he is going to pay developers with this very currency. (Maybe like in devcoin?)

As far as I know only PPCoin is considerably different from Bitcoin, and Sunny King claims that development costs $100,000. So, good luck Smiley
760  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Introducing Treazant - Bitcoin Without Reward Halving on: November 30, 2012, 02:58:13 PM
He wanted to create a permanent fork of bitcoin that did not reduce the block reward and allowed people to keep their current bitcoin holdings while not usurping the current main chain....

Actually from what he wrote in edit it is apparent that he wants to make a separate currency "initialized" from bitcoin.

Difference between a fork and a separate currency is that spending money in fork will also spend it on bitcoin network, however spending separate currency won't affect your bitcoin wallet.
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