I think you are focusing on the instances where it is useful and missing the greater and more far reaching/dangerous issues.

Things are a LOT more complex than you may realise.

To find the REAL net gain of the DT system/merit you must take all possible influences it has over the board and its members.
You are not considering
1. The implications for free speech (HUGE)
2. The false sense of security and positive or neutral score can render
3. The fact that people should study a persons entire history here before trading not just be lazy and rely on a misleading score.
4. The damage to accounts that are not scammers but got red trust via abuse.
5. The incentive and reward to abuse it.
6. The possible benefits of a different policing system

DT/Merit is misleading, VERY dangerous for an open discussion forum, and it's whack a mole success is limited really.

We could go into a deep debate on each point. I am up for that. Just find my thread of the year here in meta and post on it. I will respond.

You were always sniping at me and siding with these abusers. Oh well, didn't work out too well did it

No bother for me. I'm already incredibly rich, I post for fun. You however.....

To make things up to you I guess I could pay you twice your regular rate to valet my expensive automobile haha poop poop.

Can you list the pros and cons that you factored into this final statement, because that seems quite doubtful bordering on ludicrous.

You can not possibly allow the formations of sub admin level control systems that are wide open to being gamed, provide reward for gaming them and allow them to crush free speech unanswered.

I'm interested in hearing you out anyway.

You are all focusing on TRUST too much the REAL issue that is stopping the TRUST system from being decentralised is the broken and cycled merit system which is now apparently the TRUST system too.

Bring in some REAL decentralisation (by enabling a few people outside of the observable GANG) and watch these people get kept in line. However, letting them move the key requirements to something THEY control was a terrible error of judgement.

I mean if DT's are not willing to keep to Theymos proposal of red trust being reserved for Scammers or those STRONGLY likely to scam then what is the point of it? I think theymos creates these decentralised systems that sadly rely on people NOT acting selfishly and all doing what he says even when he never backs it up with action. Well, that is never going to work.

The only hope is that as TIME drags on, more and more people will reach the 250 shitty cycled junk merits key positions and they will eventually through mass of numbers stop colluding as one bunch so successfully and efficiently. EVENTUALLY DT's  will be kept in line to the point they will get red trusted or perhaps removed. I don't think that will be that useful and whilst we wait free speech is crushed and we are far far far from an optimal environment here.

You could not have a worse start to it all (it is infested with scum that have no care of observable wrongdoing, abuse and gaming it to the max) if it EVER does manage to be more net positive than the net negative aspects and tensions it creates.

Better to have one single entity that sets some clear criteria and kicks abusers off than this drawn out experiment with the board.  

Merit is always doomed sadly. To make that some kind of objective, fair and reliable metric is impossible because people simply do not have the same capacity to recognise the TRUE value of a post. Just keep that for preventing bots and account farmers.

Meta is basically 6 groups

1. those that know the systems are broken but pretend they are not so they can keep gaming them and retaining the rewards.

2. those that know the systems are broken but think if they keep feltching the abusers of those systems long enough they will get to abuse them too.

3. those that know the systems are broken but too scared to speak up against the abusers or want to ass kiss theymos because he is the warden of the forum and that he may be offended if the attempts to decentralise control don't work out that well.

4. me - who wants to fair and transparent system for all posters, whom are free to say what they want as long as they bring a sensible reasonable supporting case for it.  An environment where just because your views are unpopular they will not be cause to see your account ruined, your paid2post opportunities taken away and your ability to trade crushed.

5. Theymos, who wants to see if it is possible to decentralise control of an anonymous posting forum in a way that prevents net negative behaviour without having serious net negative side effects. Who himself is surrounded by tainted feedback from those 1st 3 groups.

6. Those that have no real clue.

Someone smart here once told me....  I hate those that kiss my ass the most, they are the first ones to turn on you.

Ha, well I knew you could not fail to recognise your actions were being accurately described.

1. there is no comparable forums to bitcointalk. It is clearly the best.
2. That developer could have made the same millions by launching as a snr or whatever. I really doubt the copy and pasted with any kind of financial motive in mind.
3. You need to look up the net value of a member did he contribute more net positive original content that the damage he apparently caused the board with a couple of copy and pastes that were likely on topic and helpful. Intent is for me the most important factor however even a couple of mistakes that cause minor if any harm compared to creating a ton of original content.

My point is we ban these people whilst rewarding those that are proven untrustworthy, scammers, liars and far more greedy. It is messed up.

Well let's consider the observable events  - Want evidence to substantiate any of these statements then just ask.


1. what kind of people are saying the trust system works well and no need for a review.

a/ A proven liar, scammer, and one implicated in extortion and shady escrow practises.
b/ A proven sneaky, greedy, racist trolling sig spammer sock puppet user who is desperate for btc dust.
c/ Quite possibly the worst merit abuser on this board who just slathers political merit to those in "*the gang"

* the gang is a bunch of merit cyclers who also collude on the inclusions and exclusions on the trust list. Simply pull up their fans and recipients on the bpip or dig deeper to their top 20 or 30 lists these cyclers are riddled inside those top lists. They all rush to each other defence and attack as gang on threads where their "power" is questioned. (like here)

2./ What kind of persons are demonstrating it observably does not work

a/ persons that have voiced the truth about DT's prior observable wrong doing - and got red trust
b/ persons that were accused of being other members (with no evidence) - and got red trust
c/ other NON scammers - got red trust.


Merit is the real cancer here on this board. It is just most people are too dumb to understand how merit (now trust also for some unknown reason) crushes free speech whilst enabling and small group of proven untrustworthy individuals to gain power and control others PAID2POST and Trading behaviour.  This is an observable fact.

So in short - not only does it not work because you now have a bunch of red scores for things not only NOT for scamming. You have red trust being given to those who are telling the truth and highlighting OBSERVABLE wrongdoing by individuals that should never be in a trust position.  So we created systems that are misleading and broken and as a nice side effect crush free speech.

You want to dispute anything I have said?? Bring the debate here.

TL/DR

Both systems of control are not only broken and wide open to gaming (which is actually incentivized and rewarded )they crush free speech (the worst thing that could ever happen here).

But you say liars are trustworthy and should be on DT ?

 I mean you know full well lauda is a proven liar, implicated in extortion schemes and basically a scammer and yet you include him and his known gang on your inclusions list and collude with them to exclude a very similar list of people.

Double standards.

That's not to mention you find trustworthy a proven sneaky greedy racist trolling sig spamming sock puppet user.

I say observable double standards to this degree makes you untrustworthy.

I mean by your own standards one can argue that you are a scammer or liar. Since just like how you red trust persons for "supporting" a "possible" scam since you say they are tantamount to scammers themselves then you supporting liars, scammers and sneaky greedy racist sig spamming puppet users..... well.

We need to keep in mind that in prior cases like this suchmoon (who likely snitched him) likes to wait until the end then present something far more damning than we have already noticed.

This all looks far too weak for any mod to act upon.

Hence why I was contrasting a perm ban for copy and pasting against the "rewards" we bestow upon others proven to have conducted far more disgusting and untrustworthy deeds.

You want an environment where everyone is treated as equally as possible and their ENTIRE net contribution for their entire history here on this board is considered where any punishment or "reward" is being decided upon.

Dire posting Wolf boy again managing to

1. feltch suchmoon hoping for some merit scraps.
2. sig spam his "highly paid sig"
3. allow me to highlight this

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5118173.msg50066731#msg50066731

thanks come tell me more about these " opposite of facts"  lol

Back to flipping those burgers wolf boy.

suchmoon is terrified of any kind of real debate

she deleted this for being "trolling" haha

========================================================================
He paid it back - with obscene interest albeit late.= neutral with warning " paid but late, perhaps stick to small loans sub 0.5 btc to be on the safe side"

I don't think it was cool to lose contact with the lender though at any point. That can be stressful. However, would anyone destroy a legend account for this tiny amount?

I mean you lend with no collateral then you will expect some stress now and then right? hence why you get insane interest.
========================================================================


Suchmoon willing to give those implicated in extortions  benefit of the doubt and even include them in her trust list lol

suchmoon willing to look the other with proven liars  includes them in her trust list

Suchmoon willing to promote and sanction the actions of those caught red handed racist trolling under puppet accounts to sig spam for extra btc dust includes them in her trust list

Suchmoon basically willing to give any "pals" a get out of jail free card for proven lying, scamming, greedy sneaky actions and trust abuse

suchmoron

Okay cool

We can discuss those other points in a new thread I will make shortly. Sometimes 100% perfect solution is not required to be an improvement over totally broken system that is crushing free speech. But for sure this is a discussion for another thread.... try searching for most important thread of the year on this board and we can discuss it there if you like.
If there is any serious side to the copy and paste at all then just take off their sigs for a few years.

This all looks like weak sauce for a perm ban. Just take off his sig for a couple of years.

What kind of place is this? it is turning into a complete sham.

1. perm ban devs and real contributors for a couple of copy and paste which is not even likely financially motivated, likely just got sloppy or forgot to reference original source (does not look like any ground breaking revelations or anything even covered by copyright). I mean he is obviously not a copy and paste bot spammer and creates a lot of original content.

2. we reward, promote and provide financial incentive for

a. proven liars
b. proven and self confessed trust abusers
c. proven sneaky and greedy financially motivated racist trolling sig spamming sock puppets
d. those STRONGLY implicated in extortion attempts who contact and threaten peoples parents
e. those implicated in moving the btc they were intrusted with for escrow purposes to gain personally from any forks
f. those with observable double standards on SERIOUS matters.

3. sneaky snitches like suchmoon who revels in getting real contributors and NON scammers banned whilst enabling/ protecting the most shady and scammy shits on here.

What a fucked up place it's all turning into.

We just sold out free speech here on this board by implementing merit (now DT) to take care of a bunch of  ico spammers/bots  who should have been contained within a noob jail in the first place and not allowed anywhere near the valuable posters who were driven away.

Allowing this copy and paste shit to be weaponized is another huge mistake.  Who seriously gives 1 fuck if someone copies a mining guide, a news posts about a project, any helpful information that was requested. Come on this is fucking pathetic we care about this but not about the A - F of real scum bags whom we want to reward, praise and promote.

Copy and paste perm bans should be for bots, text spinners, frequent copy and pasters for clear financial gain. Those using copy and paste to ruin the board for financial reward. Not those helping others or just a bit lazy. Ban occasional lazy and reward and pay scammers?? yeah okay sounds legit.

I've never encountered such a bunch of sniveling vermin.

There MUST be more behind this kind of account to be banned. Did his projects turn into scams? is there any observable untrustworthy wrongdoing with financial motives here? if so present it.

All this hassle, innocent accounts getting ruined with red paint, real contributors banned on weaponized copy and paste nonsense, the free speech of the entire board now crushed by merit and dt, .... just to deal with some shitty ico spammers.  

Just take off his sig for a few years, I'm sure he will not mind if he is a real enthusiast.

If this is not financially motivated then theymos will surely sig ban him since chitbitcity was allowed back  because of some DT supporters. One of which I think was suchmoon.

That is your opinion and if you find it valid then that is fine by me.

the way i see it

1. Hhampuz enables others to trust abuse and colludes to exclude the same members from DT as those trust abusers
2. Hhampuz demonstrates very clear double standards as I have described.
3. The only criticisms that I can see are those that are deserving and appropriate
a/ the enabling of trust abusers
b/ the double standards.
4/ This is not random.
5/ This is not indiscriminate.


I agree he is not the most potent of the dirt bags here nor should he be a PRIMARY focus ideally. However, since those that should be receiving the most attention are now pretty much entrenched within the broken systems of control because of the actions of those like Hhampuz, then those supporting are best dealt with first. |Perhaps chipping at the support of those fully entrenched is not entirely without merit.

Until he excludes those that are trust abusers and therefore STOPS sanctioning/enabling their actions he must be held to the same standards he approves of others being held to.

Campaign managers are in a very precarious position. It is important to distance themselves from any UNTRUSTWORTHY persons or their actions.

BCT

Not interested in reading. Not interested in debating because too scared. Okay moronbozo.

No this is evan duffield this is a captive instamine ( a premine).

Please shut up talkshit. You're even more of a pathetic asskissing fool than the OP. Now that backfired on him I hope the same fate awaits you. Only I suspect you are some puppet account of DT's or merit sources they are gradually powering up to entrench themselves further in these broken systems of control.

There is NOT a valid reason behind every untrusted feedback. Well unless you mean valid like they want to stop the truth being told about their prior lies and scamming.

Noob garbage (YOU) spouting net negative lies and dirt everywhere are sickening especially when spamming their  sigs all over the place.

You are nothing but a parasitic little feltcher and fluffer to your merit masters and DT lords whom you know hold the keys to your HIGHER rates of gambling sig spamming income.

Mayday is slightly less sickening than you so if I could only ban one of you dregs it would be you talkshit.

So onto the ACTUAL reason for his RED TRUST.

Did anyone PROVE he is Stherapist? if it is proven then what did he do wrong by having a sock puppet account?? I notice the pharmacist is proven to have used a sock puppet to racist troll sig spam for btc dust and got busted for being extra greedy.  What did mayday do that was worse? Why is Huge Black Woman one of the most trusted people on this board aka the pharmacist btw.  But mayday needs red trust?

Sounds like MORE double standards bullshit.

Not that I care if mayday is red trusted or not since I don't like that sniveling ass kisser and find it funny the gang now turned on him. Hopefully you are next talkshit.  However, explain how he deserves red trust whilst pharmacist deserves to be the most trusted person on this board with a bag of merit when he has never made one original thought inspiring post that made any major difference here.

All of them, and most of DT are here to serve their own self enrichment and stifle free speech as they do it. Nothing more. All of them should be painted red sooner or later.

1. I have no clear idea what you are saying.
2. You are wrong if you are trying to convey that you disagree.

I have experienced it many times myself

Please fool that is not a sensible rebuttal to the clear points that I am making.

Of course such a low functioning dreg as yourself would not dare attempt a real debate with me.

Now reread the post again and use your limited capacity to try and grasp the very simple point I am making. Then make a sensible rebuttal. Or just admit you are all double standards dog shit posting sig spammers.

Honestly bring me here now one original thought inspiring post you have ever made on this board so that I can pull it to pieces and laugh at you all over again. You are a maggot and trust abusing piece of dirt supporting others even worse than yourself.

You simply do not have the capacity to even differentiate between a shit post and a hugely net  positive contribution.

Remove your huge sig you dirty spammer before using my valuable contributions to eek out further btc dust you broke ass fool.

I'm sorry you believe that in anyway answers the question I posed or the situation here. This is why imbeciles must not be merit sources nor DT. They simply do not have the capacity to differentiate between a net positive and net negative post.

How does this in anyway apply to account sellers that are termed "high risk" for scamming? do they all scam?
How does this in anyway apply to people who mistake "scare quotes" for actual quotes when they are mixed in amongst real quotes of what they have said? do they all scam
How does this in anyway relate to people presenting facts regarding wrong doing?

Also I have seen people red trusted for supporting projects that are still running but cast as "possible" scams?


You either wait for PROVEN scams or they demonstrate behaviour that suggests they are STRONGLY likely to scam. Of course there may be multiple signs of icos setting up scams so that would cross the threshold of STRONGLY likely to scam.

Your faux rebuttal only fools imbeciles of your level of intelligence or lower. Stick to debating with those types.

Your problem and most DT's problem is you have zero experience in the ALT section and little experience with the BIGGEST scams. Those setting up a quick exit with multiple signs of scamming are small fry amateurs that would only fool the dumbest and greediest risk takers. You are missing the REALLY damaging scams.

Keep in mind there is a chasm between NOT red trusting them and supporting or promoting.