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Author Topic: Why I am now not enthused about increasing the block size  (Read 2355 times)
crazy-pilot
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October 06, 2015, 11:34:04 AM
 #41

I used to have a lot of Raspberry's running full Bitcoin, but there are so many transactions and the blockchain has exploded i've given up on it. I don't even use the official client anymore because it consumes just so much size.

Also: There more Bitcoin is used the more data has to be stored, where is the compensation for the people running all to nodes, i'm talking about fast datacenter servers. Now it's mostly fun, same reason I had them, but in the end I'm throwing away money so others can pay. It's just a strange way of going about when the fun and 'hobby' part starts to slow decrease. 

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jbreher
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October 12, 2015, 10:22:28 PM
 #42

for any average consumer what is the benefit of making an irreversible payment?

You've been here quite a while CIYAM. Surely you understand that the only way to implement reversible payments is to insert a central absolute authority whom we all must trust.

Prevent some small measure of centralization driven by natural forces, by implementing an absolute centralized actor? What 'problem' is it you are really trying to solve here?

Anyone with a campaign ad in their signature -- for an organization with which they are not otherwise affiliated -- is automatically deducted credibility points.

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Raeg
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October 12, 2015, 10:32:26 PM
 #43

Now I've thought about it more I think that those pushing for very large block sizes really are rather confused as to what they think this will achieve. If you can't reverse your payment (due to say not getting something delivered) then why would any online purchaser prefer to use Bitcoin (and talking about escrows is just silly as people don't use escrows when normally purchasing things with credit cards as they don't need to - you can generally just complain to your credit card provider and the merchant will lose out which is what most consumers prefer).

When people use their card they are essentially using an escrow - Visa or Mastercard etc. Why wont coffeeshops etc just use a bitcoin payment processor like bitpay or coinbase etc? And I don't really see the issue in the buying coffee argument either. If someone sends money for a coffee or whatever else) what are the odds that it either wont confirm or will be a double spend? How would someone even try to double spend in this situation? Personally I don't see the issues here but I'm no tech expert. Bitcoin may need to be tweaked as it grows but i don't think there will be any issues it can't handle or overcome.
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October 13, 2015, 12:18:05 AM
 #44

If CPFP were more widely used then a merchant could receive a zero fee transaction from it's customer and then spend outputs from that transaction and include a sufficiently high tx fee so that both tx's get confirmed then the cost of receiving a BTC payment would essentially be absorbed by the merchant, which is the statuesque for Credit Card payments.   

Whilst this may indeed be possible it is something that is not being really used at the moment and I think it will require specialised software to do this which basically means that merchants are still going to use payment processors rather than just say a Bitcoin client (personally I think that we don't want to even have payment processors in the future).
Merchants use specialized software to process cash transactions today (although these specialized software is also capable of processing credit card transactions). Large corporations will often use their own custom software to process all their transactions. Granted, if you are a mom-and-pop small business who only accepts cash then you may use nothing more then a 10-digit calculator to process transactions/give change.

If you were to attend a Carolina Panthers football game, and purchase a beer with your credit card, then the process would likely be as follows:
Card gets swiped at Point-of-sale terminal (uses custom software) --> encrypted card data along with transaction data gets sent to back office server (uses the same custom software) --> encrypted card/transaction data gets sent to 3rd party "merchant services" company (payment processor) --> merchant services company sends transaction to Visa network --> Visa network sends transaction to issuing bank for approval --> transaction is approved and approval message takes reverse path

If you were to pay with bitcoin with the merchant using CPFP:
POS terminal (with custom software) will query the back office server for a one-time payment address --> back office server (using the same custom software) will provide a QR code with the address to send to --> POS terminal displays address for customer to send to, and customer broadcasts transaction to that address --> back office server sees transaction, checks for double spend attempts, rebroadcasts transaction, and broadcasts 2nd transaction with CPFP, and tells POS the transaction is "confirmed" (not to be confused with a Bitcoin confirmation).

The reason why merchants will use a payment processor is because their bills are in dollars, and there is nothing they can really do with their bitcoin except convert it to fiat. What needs to happen in order for merchants to not use payment processors is for the bitcoin economy to grow large enough so that merchants can pay their bills with the bitcoin they receive from sales.



Benefit from an irreversible payment? Very little, however there are other benefits to the customer, primarily (current) low cost of use and the ability to send money instantly (yes, I would argue that bitcoin transactions are for all intensive purposes instant from the viewpoint of the customer, regardless of confirmation time)

Credit cards are costless to us and send money instantly as well. It's fairly obvious Bitcoin doesn't compete and certainly does not offer a superior product on these grounds.
Credit cards are not costless, the cost of using a credit card is not transparent to the consumer, but it is present. The cost to use a credit card is roughly 3% of the credit card volume, however this is somewhat subsidized by cash transactions (assuming that cash is free to process which it is not), so the actual cost to use a credit card is somewhat lower then 3%. The cost is reflected in higher prices imposed by merchants. As of fairly recently, merchants are allowed to have different prices for cash transactions then credit card transactions, however few merchants have done this because of the complexity. I suspect that it will not be a long time before the cost of using a credit card is more transparent to customers.
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October 13, 2015, 02:12:51 AM
 #45

OP just must have been in love with Communist.

What a fail this thread is.
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October 13, 2015, 07:03:15 AM
 #46

In response to the original post:

I agree.

I've often said "Bitcoin is SWIFT not Starbucks points". For a long time that fell mostly on deaf ears. I sometimes wonder if that's a perversion of modern Western culture: people are so saturated with the feeling of being a "consumer" that they are blind to other functionality. I find the obsession of consumer culture with "gimme gimme" and everything having to be dumbed down and soft and easy, really quite depressing actually. Not that we don't need good consumer technologies, but that's not the sum total of life.

As for the "Starbucks points" part of "SWIFT not Starbucks points", well ideally Lightning (which is pretty incredible stuff) as a second layer, but even low tech solutions are fine, because for *consumer* technologies, trusted third parties are almost always going to be involved (even a perfectly instant settlement Bitcoin is not a consumer technology due to irreversibility).


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Carlton Banks
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October 13, 2015, 08:03:14 AM
 #47

In response to the original post:

I agree.

I've often said "Bitcoin is SWIFT not Starbucks points". For a long time that fell mostly on deaf ears. I sometimes wonder if that's a perversion of modern Western culture: people are so saturated with the feeling of being a "consumer" that they are blind to other functionality. I find the obsession of consumer culture with "gimme gimme" and everything having to be dumbed down and soft and easy, really quite depressing actually. Not that we don't need good consumer technologies, but that's not the sum total of life.

As for the "Starbucks points" part of "SWIFT not Starbucks points", well ideally Lightning (which is pretty incredible stuff) as a second layer, but even low tech solutions are fine, because for *consumer* technologies, trusted third parties are almost always going to be involved (even a perfectly instant settlement Bitcoin is not a consumer technology due to irreversibility).



I'm fairly sure I've never heard you say that, but you were right.

It does make more sense to compare the scope and functionality of Bitcoin with SWIFT or the ACH system. Those systems clear large sums of money fairly frequently, but not fast enough or small enough to handle the "cafes and 7-11's" use case (for which we use the credit/debit/cash 2nd layer). That corresponds pretty well to Bitcoin: main chain as the SWIFT/ACH style settlement layer, and Lightning hubs etc as the card/cash 2nd tier.

The trouble is that we need the 2nd layer to exist already, and the big industry leaders (BitPay, GoCoin etc) don't seem to be interested in developing the infrastructure in that direction at all (so far at least). Looks to me like a future gap in that particular market.

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October 13, 2015, 01:03:45 PM
 #48

I'm fairly sure I've never heard you say that, but you were right.

Well OK. I've probably said it about 4 times Smiley . And probably on reddit, which maybe doesn't count as saying anything at all Smiley

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