We already live in an AnCap world

[davout]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Populus.

[deeplink]

Slavery is the appropriation of 100% of a person's productivity, is it not?

It means the only freedom that there is to find is in one's mind.
Real slavery is not appropriation of 100% of one's productivity.

The real slaves are the people who are guided by their ego, their fear, their greed, their addictions, their thoughts and their delusions. Those who expect something else than what is right in front of them, those who fail to realize that everything is already here and that nothing exterior can truly free or enslave them.

...

Bottom line : freedom is subjective, it's not a percentage of whatever.

You can be a slave of your own mind, I agree with that. But what I don't get is how you can feel free, when someone else decides they own part of your productivity and are prepared to taken it from you by force.

Sure I understand that you can accept it or submit to it, but let's not fool ourselves and call it freedom.

Your country is a good example. I cannot grasp how a society can tax the income of some of its (most productive) members at 85% and is still absolutely convinced that they are a free country. This simply blows my mind.

[davout]

You can be a slave of your own mind, I agree with that. But what I don't get is how you can feel free, when someone else decides they own part of your productivity and are prepared to taken it from you by force.

Sure I understand that you can accept it or submit to it, but let's not fool ourselves and call it freedom.

The reason for this is that true freedom doesn't come from outside yourself.
I don't feel less free because gravity sticks my feet to the ground. Even though I'd really like to fly I don't think I'm fooling myself, or settling for a dumbed-down version of freedom, when I'm saying I'm free, even with my feet stuck to the ground

Freedom is accepting reality as it is, exactly as it is without any kind of interpretation or judgement attached to it. Recognize ideas and concept, and be fully aware that they're just thoughts that sometimes stick to our egos.

Your country is a good example. I cannot grasp how a society can tax the income of some of its (most productive) members at 85% and is still absolutely convinced that they are a free country. This simply blows my mind.

Who do you think is convinced of what exactly ?
We all live with a different world around us, and there's always going to be something in the way. If I don't feel free because I can't keep as much of my own money as I'd wish, I might as well start to feel enslaved to the weather who is preventing me from motorbiking around bare-chested, I might as well start feeling enslaved to my kid who wakes me up at 7 am a saturday telling me its time to play or the neighbor's dog that prevents me from enjoying perfect silence or [insert something to complain about here]

[myrkul]

We all live with a different world around us, and there's always going to be something in the way. If I don't feel free because I can't keep as much of my own money as I'd wish, I might as well start to feel enslaved to the weather who is preventing me from motorbiking around bare-chested, I might as well start feeling enslaved to my kid who wakes me up at 7 am a saturday telling me its time to play or the neighbor's dog that prevents me from enjoying perfect silence or [insert something to complain about here]

Ever hear of the serenity prayer?

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

That last line is important. It's just as important to know when you're accepting something you can change as to know when you're about to tilt at a windmill.

[davout]

That last line is important. It's just as important to know when you're accepting something you can change as to know when you're about to tilt at a windmill.

Of course. Life isn't about being as insensitive as possible and not giving any fucks about anything.

But still, looking for freedom outside of yourself is delusion. If you're enslaved true freedom comes either from uncoditional and non-judgemental acceptance, or from freeing your mind from the fear of getting killed trying to escape.

[myrkul]

That last line is important. It's just as important to know when you're accepting something you can change as to know when you're about to tilt at a windmill.

Of course. Life isn't about being as insensitive as possible and not giving any fucks about anything.

But still, looking for freedom outside of yourself is delusion. If you're enslaved true freedom comes either from uncoditional and non-judgemental acceptance, or from freeing your mind from the fear of getting killed trying to escape.

And now you're starting to make some sense.

The question is, and I feel this strikes to the heart of why you even made this thread, is it wrong to attempt to free some other slaves (in either of those senses) on your way out?

[deeplink]

But still, looking for freedom outside of yourself is delusion. If you're enslaved true freedom comes either from uncoditional and non-judgemental acceptance, or from freeing your mind from the fear of getting killed trying to escape.

Your argument that freedom is subjective is true and that may be the core of the misunderstanding between you and me and between AnCap and the rest of the world. Thanks for pointing that out.

However the issue remains that as much as I respect your opinion, allow you to live by it and would never dream of using force against you for acting upon your beliefs, you do not extend the same courtesy to me on so many levels.

I think there are more options how to deal with this reality than to just roll over and die.

1) Ignore the issue, accept reality.
"We can ignore reality, but we cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality."

2) Accept the issue, accept reality.
Look at it from a distance and accept that you have no stake in the outcome. http://youtu.be/i9CjBtv7j78?t=2m58s

Your "unconditional and non-judgemental acceptance" proposal falls in one of these categories. Actually most people I know in the end make the case that I should just accept it.

I have tried both approaches. They might have worked for me if I felt that the situation would actually improve slowly or at least remain bad at a constant level. Unfortunately that is not the case because "you" are giving away more and more of my subjective freedoms without my approval.

3) Rebel against it, try to change it.
I have been there, done that and am still doing it. What I clearly realize is that this will not change much, at least not in our or our children's lifetime.

4) Move away.
This is the last option I see and I am seriously investigating Libertarian/AnCap history, libertarian communes and other countries with less invasive governments.

I am absolutely and thoroughly convinced that the consequences of the current system are going to be devastating. If you know you are on a sinking ship, you try to tell as many people that want to listen. If they decide to ignore you or accept the fact that they are going down, fine, but don't blame me and the ones I love from getting into the lifeboat.