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Author Topic: Statist vs Brainist - Game Theory of potential World War 3  (Read 2186 times)
BenRayfield (OP)
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March 28, 2013, 11:49:39 PM
 #21

blablahblah, my strong interest in this subject comes mostly from my research in artificial intelligence specializing in theoretical ways to network minds together based on neuroscience theory, which at this point is not far along enough for formal papers. just a few prototypes and components. This has given me insight into the game theory of global events, which I'm trying to explain.

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March 28, 2013, 11:53:11 PM
 #22

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Bingo! And now, what would you call a non-hierarchical society? (Don't cheat and say brainist)

Brainism, statism, and anarchism are 3 different things. A brainist society could, for example, influence people not to have larger weapons by denying them trade or resources or however other people can be influenced to act with them. It is capable of doing anything a statist society can do except it usually would not because of its decentralized way of thinking.

Many words, saying nothing. Try again. Maybe using fewer words. What would you call a non-hierarchical society?

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March 29, 2013, 01:33:38 AM
 #23

Quote from: myrkul
Many words, saying nothing. Try again. Maybe using fewer words. What would you call a non-hierarchical society?

A proposal to oversimplify? No thanks. I could call it a few things, decentralized, peer to peer, brain-like, networked. You appear to want me to call it anarchy, maybe so its easier to attack my ideas by redirecting all the attacks on anarchy toward them. Most people are against anarchy, so thats obviously not going to happen. Something important has to be different, and its the networking of minds like a big brain.

Quote from: blablahblah
I guess in order to model society as a brain, you would have to know what a brain is first, right? Have you looked at a few things like the "hard problem of consciousness"? What are subjective feelings/sensations? They may be caused by electrical impulses carried via nerves from measuring organs (eyes, ears, floaty things in the ears, nose, tongue, skin, etc), but where do they go to? Which 'bit' do they end up in, which finally makes us feel whatever it is that we're feeling? Pop-science blogs/infotainment tells us that the frontal lobe gives us our executive function, but who's 'us'?

These are 2 of my better writings on how Human intelligence works:
http://www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/input-and-output-paths-between-ideas-are-subconsciously-chosen-every-few-seconds
http://www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/how-human-intelligence-works

I think consciousness is any self referencing self modifying oscillating system, like a flowing form of quine. There are many math operators known to be Turing Complete (capable of general computing, all possible calculations if given enough time and memory), including NAND, Rule 110, and Conway's Game Of Life cell update rule, and from my own research the Sums To One constraint as found in the weights of a bayesian node or half those weights and the opposite conditional for example. The important part of Sums To One is it can simulate the others but continuously, kind of between digital and quantum kinds of computing. It flows smoothly. Consciousness in that context would be a network of Sums To One constraints (or NAND etc in analog form) which processes its own source code and flows evolutions of it. In brains, the closest process to that is thinking about thinking.

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March 29, 2013, 01:40:47 AM
 #24

Quote from: myrkul
Many words, saying nothing. Try again. Maybe using fewer words. What would you call a non-hierarchical society?

A proposal to oversimplify? No thanks. I could call it a few things, decentralized, peer to peer, brain-like, networked. You appear to want me to call it anarchy, maybe so its easier to attack my ideas by redirecting all the attacks on anarchy toward them. Most people are against anarchy, so thats obviously not going to happen. Something important has to be different, and its the networking of minds like a big brain.

You haven't read any of what I have posted on here, have you?

Not surprising, really, since you mainly use this as a blogging platform.

One thing I note is missing from your list of words is "governed". Don't be afraid to use a word if it fits.

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BenRayfield (OP)
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March 29, 2013, 02:19:47 AM
 #25

Please define "governed" without using any words that also apply to Statism, and if you can't, then I'll be happy to continue using the word "statism" and say that brainism is not statism.

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March 29, 2013, 02:46:20 AM
 #26

Please define "governed" without using any words that also apply to Statism, and if you can't, then I'll be happy to continue using the word "statism" and say that brainism is not statism.
That's kinda my point, and exemplar of all my problems with trying to talk to you.

I should have known better than to get involved in this.

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Vandroiy
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March 29, 2013, 12:29:03 PM
 #27

This is mixing up two different topics. The Invisible Hand need not be a super-brain using unseen technology. It beats monolithic top-down systems even with normal humans and various sets of rules that are even known suboptimal.

But a World War 3... I'm skeptical. The non-statist intellectuals are mixed in with societies everywhere and badly organized. It doesn't take more than a little police action to end such a "war" today.

If there were a segregation in terms of countries, I doubt the window of opportunity for statist attacks would be very long. IMO, modern society's productive output is at a fraction of its potential. A country utilizing that difference should not be a viable target to bully.



Bottom line, it all comes down to organization. Most non-statists are horribly organized and split into various groups that often have unsustainable ideas. For example, I know hardly anyone who believes in the same solutions as I do. That leaves me with the options that I'm either as crazy as the rest or that almost everyone has no clue about the real solutions. It's rather grim either way. Without a more orderly approach there won't even be anything to side with or against.
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March 29, 2013, 01:12:46 PM
Last edit: March 29, 2013, 02:31:26 PM by BenRayfield
 #28

blablahblah,
Space, time, mass, and energy are all the same kind of thing, can be converted to eachother. Black hole equations define that conversion ratio. I see lots of evidence for metaphysics but no evidence of dualism which is the theory that there are 2 incompatible parts of the universe which can not be converted to eachther. By Occam's Razor, I say consciousness is made of that same one thing, but not just in the limited shapes we've seen so far, also in high dimensional multiverse shapes like the Quantum Foam physicists say spacetime is made of.

I see no need for an "outside observer". Quoting what I wrote 2 other places about this, I'll explain how the universe is consistent without anything being outside, and that by universe I mean "everything that exists" so if something existed outside it would by definition already be part of the universe. But as you said that's getting too much into semantics, and I think we're mostly agreeing and both trying to find more accurate words than "god" which also refers to many things we don't mean.

The "philosophical zombie" may appear Human in all ways we can measure with current tech, but my claim is there is no part of reality completely out of reach of any other part of reality, so if a zombie fully duplicates every quantum entanglement and other high dimensional shape which form something, it also duplicates the consciousness. The only other option is dualism and I see no evidence for it.

http://www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/we-all-hold-a-world-view-what-is-the-first-proposition
Quote
Nonexistence and the existence of all possible things simultaneously, are the same shape, except one is made of "something" and the other made of "nothing", but "something" and "nothing" are only labels, and labels don't change content, so they equal. All things and nothing are therefore equal. I call this one thing they equal unity. There is no room for a master of the universe in unity because it equals nonexistence, but within that balance, anything and everything, except things which are not self consistent (unsolvable paradoxes), do happen. Unity is symmetric from all angles because there is nothing to unbalance it. The universe equals unity, but I had to define "universe" exactly so people don't throw in extra things, which by my definition are already part of unity.

Unity is nonexistence. Only unbalanced things are experienced as existing. Our reality is unbalanced from unity and therefore we experience it. All realities together cancel out. The universe overall does not exist. Only its parts do individually but not when observed together. It is not possible to observe them together because the observer would also be cancelled out in unity.

Since the universe does not exist, it can't take more than the smallest amount of energy to make big changes. How could it be difficult to change something which doesn't even exist.

Brains and other forms of intelligence make exponentially unlikely things happen from a statistical physics perspective, like its very unlikely the particles/waves in your body would move up a set of stairs instead of falling to the floor and spreading out, but that happens unusually often, so improbable an event it can only be compared to the formation of single celled life from nonliving material. With life and intelligence, the wavefunction of our reality is pushed repeatedly into more and more improbable states, and this can be used as a power source.

It is the belief that the universe exists, the strategies which result from that belief, that prevents each of us from using the power source of thought to directly change the world, in a chaos theory way echoing out changes strategicly, to change a reality from one variety of near nonexistence to another.

In the next quote I try to explain in the most technical way how the metaphysics connects to the rest of my brain theory:

http://www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/how-human-intelligence-works
Quote
There is much disagreement on if brains have any quantum or nonlocal abilities, even in small amounts. If you search youtube for "psi wheel in a [clear closed] box 2" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKJGb4RNRB4 you'll see a video of me moving a piece of aluminum foil with my mind, so some of us have direct experience to answer that question. You can read about the debate here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind In the context of how Human intelligence works, I'll explain where that fits in. Telekinesis (moving things with your mind) starts using the 3d+1d grid in a very general way, with a centered mind. In my mind I see a 3d moving field, a smooth surface, without colors, and my thoughts bend it in complex ways. When I change my subconscious thoughts in a way that makes the "3d moving field" become flat and stop moving, then I am in a very centered state of mind and get the more advanced access to reality: Whatever I look at, and form ideas in my mind of (like shoe-over-elephant is an object, described above) whatever I'm looking at, by directing my attention to each part of the object individually and thinking about what it would feel like to touch each part of it... When I have a representation of the target object in my mind, and I continue to adjust my subconscious thoughts to keep the "3d moving field" balanced and motionless, then after that the other parts of telekinesis are done exactly like dreaming. Example: Rotate the object in your mind the same way you normally think about objects from different angles, and if you did it right, the object rotates in reality. It feels like reality is an other part of your mind, like you're dreaming but have only a very weak ability to change the dream, but that does not mean that's what reality really is. It means that's a way you can think to learn how to do telekinesis. Psychic abilities (including telepathy and telekinesis) are done mostly in the 3d+1d grid and a little connected to the 2d audio grid (temporal lobe) parts of my brain. I don't see or hear it, but those are the types of thinking its most similar to. Most people have no rotation ability in their 2d audio grid, but they can learn it. Similarly, most people never learn to use their telepathic or telekinetic abilities, while they do have the brain parts to access it. There is no brain part that only does psychic things. Each part has many functions.

You misunderstand what I mean by people thinking more like a global brain, networking ideas and patterns of thought through the Internet, optionally using EEG based game controllers as a higher bandwidth version of mouse, keyboard, screen, and speakers as the inputs and outputs. The flow of information between the subconscious minds is more important than how direct the interface is. You write about unbalances like "slavery/indentured servitude in the name of blind progress is far more efficient than letting people twiddle their thumbs and "enjoy life"", but slavery is about the least efficient way of organizing people there is. Brains do not tend to waste resources. Laziness is a great way of not spending resources, except when there are important things to be done. The nature of a brain is self balancing.

Quote from: Vandroly
But a World War 3... I'm skeptical. The non-statist intellectuals are mixed in with societies everywhere and badly organized. It doesn't take more than a little police action to end such a "war" today.

Brains evolved to predict mostly linearly. They are terrible at exponential patterns, like waves in the most divergent stock prices. If it happened as the world is today, I would agree, but I'm predicting based on the feedback loop of statists regulating stronger and regulating more things as a reaction to brainists, and brainists inventing more ways to network minds together despite those regulations. Its a fact of history that statists see networking minds together as a threat on the level of revolution taking over a small country at least, because that's exactly what happened in Egypt through social networking, then they got really serious about the Internet Kill Switch. It happened because their leader was a terrorist who organized mass killings of Egyptians and other things. Facebook and Twitter are a big part of how the problem was solved.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/11/egypt-facebook-revolution-wael-ghonim_n_822078.html
Quote
Egypt's Facebook Revolution: Wael Ghonim Thanks The Social Network
Shortly after Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak stepped down from power on Friday, activist Wael Ghonim spoke with CNN's Wolf Blitzer and credited Facebook with the success of the Egyptian people's uprising.

Ghonim, a marketing manager for Google, played a key role in organizing the January 25 protest by reaching out to Egyptian youths on Facebook. Shortly after that first protest, Ghonim was arrested in Cairo and imprisoned for 12 days.

Since his release, Ghonim has become a symbol for the Egyptian movement, although he has rejected this notion. "I'm not a hero. I was writing on a keyboard on the Internet and I wasn't exposing my life to danger," he said in an interview immediately after his release. "The heroes are the one who are in the street."

Brainists will not allow our global neural connections to be cut as its literally a form of brain damage to our global brain. People don't say it that way, but thinking about the world as already a global brain not much self aware yet, its actions are easy to predict. It will defend itself similar to how corporations defended themselves by protecting "corporate personhood" and laws that allow them to lobby (put money to politicians which statistically has the effect of outputting laws favorable to those corporations). Statism and brainism are 2 life forms which each feel the need to defend themself. Did you take that it into account in your predictions?

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March 29, 2013, 04:41:09 PM
Last edit: March 29, 2013, 06:18:06 PM by FirstAscent
 #29

The brain, as a biological neural network, is a device which constantly rewires itself using STDP. Social networks do the same.

First idiotic thing: All the anarcho freaks just can't seem to get their tiny brains around the fact that out of anarchy will arise hierarchy.

Second idiotic thing: A true anarchy does not care about anything or move to create unified fronts to solve problems. It's only the individual units doing their own thing, satisfying their own needs, blissfully ignorant of larger problems, such as resource depletion, destructive non reversible transformative processes, etc.
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March 29, 2013, 04:41:52 PM
 #30

Quick rebuttal:

The "WW3 Game Theory of the Bitcoin World" appears to be organised into 2 broad groups:

Normal people
-Nerds/geeks/pikachu/Magic/whatever-card-playing "techie" people
-programmers, economists
-ex-Wall St/insurance/superannuation/hedge fund finance people
-bored Internet surfers
-friends, acquaintances, co-workers, girlfriends, wives, husbands, siblings, etc., of the above.

Fruitcakes
Often disguised as normal people, but they're actually...
-Anarcho-Capitalists: "order and wisdom spontaneously erupts out of chaos and stupidity." An amalgamation of retarded beliefs that even with zero government, pillars of civilisation such as education, healthcare, justice, and various social safety nets can all be provided privately and sustainably by the magic of "market forces"... despite an obvious lack of human values. ("Greed" probably doesn't count as a human value because it surely also applies to reptiles and birds which collect bright trinkets to feather their nests with).
-Libertarians: "we pretty much agree with An-Caps, but reserve the right to brutally enforce a minimalist bureaucracy for things like orphanages, and banning slavery, and indentured servitude... and any other exceptions that we haven't thought of yet, if they give us moral discomfort. We of course have the final say as to the morality of the situation."
-Confused Hippies/Libertarians: "transactions and all the other bank-like features that Bitcoin provides should be free and/or extremely cheap so that everyone can enjoy it! But the miners and Bitcoin businesses should of course all earn as much as they can!"
-Religious sects: "long live Satoshi!", "the Cardinals Core Developers have spoken!", "the value is going to the Moon!", "Bitcoin will take over the world -- the prophecy predicts it!"... etc... Some of the speculators could be included in this group.
-Communists/related sects: "Bitcoin will allow our superior authoritarian regime to track usage statistics, and our Computer with optimised software will command the Proletariat to produce the correct amount of butter and other basic foodstuffs in order to ensure adequate health and social fulfilment for everyone equally!"

Telling it like it is.
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