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Author Topic: Only Proof-of-work coins are truly decentralized  (Read 457 times)
g2com (OP)
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January 03, 2017, 09:11:37 PM
 #1

Bitcoin isn't the first cryptocurrency, but nonetheless most successful. Before Bitcoin all other designs have failed. Why? Because Bitcoin was the first to use Proof-of-work as consensus and incentive mechanism in a peer-to-peer network. Proof-of-work serves as both leader election and protection against Sybil attack. Although it consumes huge amounts of energy, it is purposefully designed that way. No one has yet been able to take down Bitcoin yet. Some people have proposed Proof-of-stake and Byzantine Fault Tolerance based consensus, but they are all de facto centralized. If we consider the evolution of digital currencies to be continuous, then the consortium blockchain should have been born before Bitcoin do because its logical to extend a single server node to a group of trusted servers rather than random server nodes. However, no such digital currencies have lived to date. Proof-of-stake coins rely on stakeholders to be honest. But what if they were seized by the government, or their private keys hacked? Without open participation a blockchain will be no different than a centralized database, which creates a single-point-of-failure. Close blockchains are not necessarily worthless, but they do carry much higher risks than open blockchains. History has shown us no centralized agency has been able to withstand all challenges, even the US federal reserve hasn't. Beware of scams and only choose the worthy.
kiklo
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January 04, 2017, 02:04:51 AM
Last edit: January 04, 2017, 02:27:11 AM by kiklo
 #2

Proof of Stake is the Evolution.  Wink

Proof of Work is a failure, (Control Centralized to Chinese Mining Pools over a year ago.)

Chinese Mining Pools currently Control ~67% of BTC , just because people are currently throwing more fiat at it,
don't mistake public ignorance for technical superiority.

If I am a PoW miner , I can sell my coins and still keep control of the network with my ASICs.
If I am a PoS Staker, when I sell my coins, I am selling my % of future staking potential.

 Cool


FYI:
It all breaks down to resources, Million of Dollars to maintain PoW Security (required monetary expenditures ~ year for new ASICS),

Where as a PoS coin network can be maintained and Secured with a few PCs.
(This is why PoS will succeed PoW, spiraling cost structure of PoW guarantees Centralization.)

FYI2:
As far as the Gov goes , they can seize you and sell your coins PoW or PoS.
And if they don't want you staking or mining, they can cut your electricity or internet connection.
Currently no algorithm will protect you from a Government out to get you.

fortunecrypto
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January 04, 2017, 02:50:54 AM
 #3

yes I agree it is really decentralized but not every body can mine and only few people who can afford to generate more coins because they can able to do that,but proof of stakes are getting more attention and supporters because every can stake,even an old computer can mine new coins using the technology of proof of stakes.

g2com (OP)
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January 04, 2017, 04:23:06 AM
 #4

Proof of Stake is the Evolution.  Wink

Proof of Work is a failure, (Control Centralized to Chinese Mining Pools over a year ago.)

Chinese Mining Pools currently Control ~67% of BTC , just because people are currently throwing more fiat at it,
don't mistake public ignorance for technical superiority.

If I am a PoW miner , I can sell my coins and still keep control of the network with my ASICs.
If I am a PoS Staker, when I sell my coins, I am selling my % of future staking potential.

 Cool


FYI:
It all breaks down to resources, Million of Dollars to maintain PoW Security (required monetary expenditures ~ year for new ASICS),

Where as a PoS coin network can be maintained and Secured with a few PCs.
(This is why PoS will succeed PoW, spiraling cost structure of PoW guarantees Centralization.)

FYI2:
As far as the Gov goes , they can seize you and sell your coins PoW or PoS.
And if they don't want you staking or mining, they can cut your electricity or internet connection.
Currently no algorithm will protect you from a Government out to get you.



How do you guanrantee PoS coins won't be controlled by a group of stakeholders? PeerCoin, NXT and BitShares all have tried yet their combined value is only a fraction of Bitcoin's, even not comparable to Etherem and Monero.

The PoW chooses a random leader per each block because the outcome of a mining hash isn't predictable. It's still much more difficult for any party to shutdown PoW than PoS. PoS is also more vulnerable to market manipulation.
dinofelis
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January 04, 2017, 04:49:17 AM
 #5

Proof of Stake is the Evolution.  Wink

Proof of Work is a failure, (Control Centralized to Chinese Mining Pools over a year ago.)

Chinese Mining Pools currently Control ~67% of BTC , just because people are currently throwing more fiat at it,
don't mistake public ignorance for technical superiority.

If I am a PoW miner , I can sell my coins and still keep control of the network with my ASICs.
If I am a PoS Staker, when I sell my coins, I am selling my % of future staking potential.

 Cool


FYI:
It all breaks down to resources, Million of Dollars to maintain PoW Security (required monetary expenditures ~ year for new ASICS),

Where as a PoS coin network can be maintained and Secured with a few PCs.
(This is why PoS will succeed PoW, spiraling cost structure of PoW guarantees Centralization.)

FYI2:
As far as the Gov goes , they can seize you and sell your coins PoW or PoS.
And if they don't want you staking or mining, they can cut your electricity or internet connection.
Currently no algorithm will protect you from a Government out to get you.

I think the debate is more difficult than that.

It is true that PoW, if specialized hardware is out, allows for such economies of scale, that centralization is unavoidable.  This is what happened to bitcoin, what happened to scrypt coins which lost their reason-d'être for it.   For the moment, there are still PoW schemes which allow spread-out mining, but the question is whether that's due to the fact that these coins have low enough stakes that it isn't worth *yet* to develop ASICs for it, or whether they found the magic solution.

In other words, PoW avoids too much centralisation, as long as general purpose computing can compete in the mining race.  From the moment that you cannot do PoW on your PC any more, it is essentially over.  The question is whether there are PoW algorithms that will remain complex enough, even in the face of enormous potential gains, to resist specific hardware development.  I might think that an algorithm that is *regularly forked* might be a solution.  You are not going to invest into billions of hardware if 6 months later, the algorithm is forked into something that renders your hardware useless.   Also, if general purpose computing is the best solution, that might at best stimulate the development of better general purpose computing hardware, instead of totally useless hardware EXCEPT for mining a specific coin.

So maybe a morphing, forking, complicated PoW algorithm is the best protection against PoW centralisation. 

But PoS has also its integrated centralisation, because the compound interest formula diverges, which means that in a toy world where N parties have different stakes, and you let evolve a PoS system (with "interest") in such a world, then the initial top stake holder will ultimately obtain all coins.  One can even estimate the time frame over which this divergence takes place.  Once the top stake holder has 50%, or 66%, or 95% of all stakes, he is total master of the network (which, at that point, becomes most probably worthless).

The PoS system has the inherent instability of any "capitalist" caricature, where the rich get richer, because your possessions give you a a proportional fraction of the gains, which increase your possessions, which entitle you to an even larger fraction of the gains, until you reach 100% of all gains.

There is essentially no solution to the centralisation problem, apart from 'changing the rules' regularly and in an unforeseeable way, which is exactly what "immutability" tries to avoid.  In the real world, that's also what happens, and avoids all richness to concentrate in the hands of an oligarchy: revolutions, political overhaul, unforeseen crises, war, ... 
Without those perturbations, there would just be a few rich families possessing the earth, and all the rest of us would be their slaves.

kiklo
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January 04, 2017, 05:02:31 AM
 #6

How do you guarantee PoS coins won't be controlled by a group of stakeholders? PeerCoin, NXT and BitShares all have tried yet their combined value is only a fraction of Bitcoin's, even not comparable to Etherem and Monero.

The PoW chooses a random leader per each block because the outcome of a mining hash isn't predictable. It's still much more difficult for any party to shutdown PoW than PoS. PoS is also more vulnerable to market manipulation.

You need to learn to compartmentalize.  Smiley

The Monetary Value is NOT a Direct Representation of a Coin's Technical Value.

PoW does not choose a random leader , it chooses the leader that can generate the longest chain with the most difficulty.
PoS also chooses the leader that can generate the longest chain with the most difficulty, No Difference.

Both PoW & PoW use IP addresses, one can be shut down as easy as the other,
cut the electricity , cut  the internet access, or just set the building with the ASICs on Fire,
(I can move a PoS wallet a lot faster , than you can move a warehouse full of ASICs.)  Wink

Fact is the Chinese Miners have ~67% , so they can block any BTC transaction or rewrite the last 12 hours of transaction history on a whim.
BTC works at China's sole discretion.

Any Market can be manipulated if you know what you are doing and have the resources, or do you believe BTC is really worth over a grand,
I recognize Bullshit and manipulation when I see it.
PoW or PoS or Stocks or Silver or Gold or Oil markets are all manipulated on a daily basis.
No one of these is more vulnerable than the other.

 Cool

FYI:
You have no guarantee that any resource won't be controlled by a large group of owners.
I.E. The way that China now controls BTC.
But at least with PoS, when someone sells their coins they sell a % of their control, while your PoW guys sell coins and keep the exact same amount of control %.  Tongue
kiklo
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January 04, 2017, 05:19:44 AM
Last edit: January 04, 2017, 05:55:10 AM by kiklo
 #7

I think the debate is more difficult than that.

It is true that PoW, if specialized hardware is out, allows for such economies of scale, that centralization is unavoidable.  This is what happened to bitcoin, what happened to scrypt coins which lost their reason-d'être for it.   For the moment, there are still PoW schemes which allow spread-out mining, but the question is whether that's due to the fact that these coins have low enough stakes that it isn't worth *yet* to develop ASICs for it, or whether they found the magic solution.

In other words, PoW avoids too much centralisation, as long as general purpose computing can compete in the mining race.  From the moment that you cannot do PoW on your PC any more, it is essentially over.  The question is whether there are PoW algorithms that will remain complex enough, even in the face of enormous potential gains, to resist specific hardware development.  I might think that an algorithm that is *regularly forked* might be a solution.  You are not going to invest into billions of hardware if 6 months later, the algorithm is forked into something that renders your hardware useless.   Also, if general purpose computing is the best solution, that might at best stimulate the development of better general purpose computing hardware, instead of totally useless hardware EXCEPT for mining a specific coin.

So maybe a morphing, forking, complicated PoW algorithm is the best protection against PoW centralisation.  


The moment any PoW algo becomes profitable, don't expect the ASICS to be that far behind.



But PoS has also its integrated centralisation, because the compound interest formula diverges, which means that in a toy world where N parties have different stakes, and you let evolve a PoS system (with "interest") in such a world, then the initial top stake holder will ultimately obtain all coins.  One can even estimate the time frame over which this divergence takes place.  Once the top stake holder has 50%, or 66%, or 95% of all stakes, he is total master of the network (which, at that point, becomes most probably worthless).

The PoS system has the inherent instability of any "capitalist" caricature, where the rich get richer, because your possessions give you a a proportional fraction of the gains, which increase your possessions, which entitle you to an even larger fraction of the gains, until you reach 100% of all gains.

There is essentially no solution to the centralisation problem, apart from 'changing the rules' regularly and in an unforeseeable way, which is exactly what "immutability" tries to avoid.  In the real world, that's also what happens, and avoids all richness to concentrate in the hands of an oligarchy: revolutions, political overhaul, unforeseen crises, war, ...  
Without those perturbations, there would just be a few rich families possessing the earth, and all the rest of us would be their slaves.


Actually you bring up a point the only real problem with Proof of Stake is Interest (Inflation) .
We all try and treat PoS like it is a saving account, that is the mistake it is not a saving account.
Banks could do saving accounts because they were charging higher interest rates for loans and paying out a pittance to savers.

Proof of Stake Coins when we paying out even 1% interest are pulling that payment directly from our marketcaps and decreasing our price per coin.
That is why at ZEIT, we are changing the rules, starting around April of 2017, we move to an Ultra Low interest rate with only .0005% yearly .
PoS will be used to keep the network running and secure, and not as a savings account that kills the marketcap.



 Cool
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