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Author Topic: Bitcoin in its current form actually doesn't solve anything  (Read 886 times)
Rammix (OP)
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November 27, 2012, 08:58:27 AM
 #1

Let's say we now have 20'000'000 bitcoins. And let's say we (physically) lose all of it except 1 bitcoin. Then we'll have to divide it to pieces to have 20'000'000 (or more) "smaller" pieces to compensate the loss. We'll know that they are "smaller" pieces but their actual value on market will be just normal. Numbers above are just for example, to make it clear.

In other words, what makes dividing existing bitcoins to lesser pieces to compensate their natural (or not so natural - say hello to banks and crediting system) loss different from emission of new bitcoins? Right, nothing. You can call it micro-, nano- etc bitcoins but in fact quantity of the smallest pieces will have to be changed through a very close analogue of emission. Actually only the name will differ.

I think the only way to avoid such forced emissions is to create an algorithm for denying some bitcoins as completely lost. To reach that goal we could probably invent some rules that will make bitcoins automatically constantly circulate - or, better, "declare" themselves - on market so that 'dead' ones could be filtered out and re-built after some time.

But even that will only solve problem of physical loss of bitcoins, but won't solve that global problem which is called 'banking system', and more importantly won't stop borrowing percentage from accumulating finances in banks and bank-like bubbles.

It seems the only goal that bitcoin in its current form can reach is to make pseudo-decentralized economy. "Pseudo-" because governments and international financial organizations can easily gain control over bitcoin through the banking system.

If I'm totally wrong (though I'm sure that I'm right) please try to explain why.  Grin
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November 27, 2012, 09:31:57 AM
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Quote
I think the only way to avoid such forced emissions is to create an algorithm for denying some bitcoins as completely lost. To reach that goal we could probably invent some rules that will make bitcoins automatically constantly circulate - or, better, "declare" themselves - on market so that 'dead' ones could be filtered out and re-built after some time.

This seems a good Bitcoin feature to salvage "destroyed" bitcoins but I might be wrong. In this case, Bitcoin users would be forced to circulate their bitcoins every now and then to avoid being considered as "destroyed" bitcoins by the Bitcoin system.

Quote
It seems the only goal that bitcoin in its current form can reach is to make pseudo-decentralized economy. "Pseudo-" because governments and international financial organizations can easily gain control over bitcoin through the banking system.

I just wonder what would happen if banks have foreseen the future of Bitcoin and see it as an alarming competitor, then they bought tons and tons of bitcoins and continue to do so while its cost is not that high with respect to a currency so that they could hoard bitcoins and keep those from being circulated to other Bitcoin users, in order to hinder the growth of the Bitcoin community and potentially kill it. What do you think boys and girls?

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Jutarul
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November 27, 2012, 09:39:01 AM
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Let's say we now have 20'000'000 bitcoins. And let's say we (physically) lose all of it except 1 bitcoin. Then we'll have to divide it to pieces to have 20'000'000 (or more) "smaller" pieces to compensate the loss. We'll know that they are "smaller" pieces but their actual value on market will be just normal. Numbers above are just for example, to make it clear.

In other words, what makes dividing existing bitcoins to lesser pieces to compensate their natural (or not so natural - say hello to banks and crediting system) loss different from emission of new bitcoins? Right, nothing. You can call it micro-, nano- etc bitcoins but in fact quantity of the smallest pieces will have to be changed through a very close analogue of emission. Actually only the name will differ.

I think the only way to avoid such forced emissions is to create an algorithm for denying some bitcoins as completely lost. To reach that goal we could probably invent some rules that will make bitcoins automatically constantly circulate - or, better, "declare" themselves - on market so that 'dead' ones could be filtered out and re-built after some time.
It's been discussed before. Forced recirculation of money doesn't solve any particular issue. In fact, there is no benefit for holders of bitcoin to introduce this rule. Thus it won't happen.

But even that will only solve problem of physical loss of bitcoins, but won't solve that global problem which is called 'banking system', and more importantly won't stop borrowing percentage from accumulating finances in banks and bank-like bubbles.
Right. Bankers will always have an edge on money flow and can benefit from privileged access to financial markets. It's unavoidable. Bitcoin doesn't solve these "social" problems. There is probably no technical solution to that. But it helps indirectly by making all transactions public and making the banking system more transparent.

It seems the only goal that bitcoin in its current form can reach is to make pseudo-decentralized economy. "Pseudo-" because governments and international financial organizations can easily gain control over bitcoin through the banking system.
define easily. Control over the network is a competitive process through the use of computational resources. Everyone can participate. Governments, corporations, grass roots companies. The power lies in the democratic aspect of the inflationary policy - which is established by consensus - not some single policy maker.

If I'm totally wrong (though I'm sure that I'm right) please try to explain why.  Grin
You're wrong because bitcoin solves a very particular problem: transparent money policy and global, irreversible and reliable payment processing.

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"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.", Milton Friedman
Kazimir
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November 27, 2012, 10:14:57 AM
 #4

Let's say we now have 20'000'000 bitcoins. And let's say we (physically) lose all of it except 1 bitcoin. Then we'll have to divide it to pieces to have 20'000'000 (or more) "smaller" pieces to compensate the loss. We'll know that they are "smaller" pieces but their actual value on market will be just normal. Numbers above are just for example, to make it clear.

In other words, what makes dividing existing bitcoins to lesser pieces to compensate their natural (or not so natural - say hello to banks and crediting system) loss different from emission of new bitcoins? Right, nothing.
Ehh, everything? It's completely the opposite thing.

Banks and the ECB (or FED in the U.S.) create money out of thin air. By the billions. All this money printing (well it's not exactly 'printing', just flipping some bits on a few servers) creates more money, making our existing euros or dollars less valuable.

If, for whatever reason (because coins are lost or more people join Bitcoin or whatever), tomorrow the Bitcoin economy decides to value millibitcoins the same as we value bitcoins today, our existing money becomes MORE valuable.

Quote
You can call it micro-, nano- etc bitcoins but in fact quantity of the smallest pieces will have to be changed through a very close analogue of emission. Actually only the name will differ.
Nope, there's a HUGE difference, and that is: who owns all this 'newly generated money'? Right, everybody who currently owns it already (in proportion to their wealth). NOT a few privileged puppeteers who can create billions at their whim, screwing over the rest of the world bigtime.

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It seems the only goal that bitcoin in its current form can reach is to make pseudo-decentralized economy. "Pseudo-" because governments and international financial organizations can easily gain control over bitcoin through the banking system.
What government? Cheesy Bitcoin is not related to any particular country, you know.

And financial organizations gaining control through banking? Please. Exchanging fiat for Bitcoin with become slightly less convenient, at the most. As long as there is internet, people can communicate, and as long as they can communicate, they can trade bitcoins.

And the Bitcoin economy itself is obviously completely independent of any banking system whatsoever. No harm done.

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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November 27, 2012, 09:49:56 PM
 #5

I think the only way to avoid such forced emissions is to create an algorithm for denying some bitcoins as completely lost. To reach that goal we could probably invent some rules that will make bitcoins automatically constantly circulate - or, better, "declare" themselves - on market so that 'dead' ones could be filtered out and re-built after some time.

That would make Bitcoins far less useful.  If you had to keep on registering them with the network any Bitcoins you own have the potential to be worthless in the future.  I don't think it's possibly any other way without compromising the core features of Bitcoins.
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November 27, 2012, 09:58:20 PM
 #6

I think the only way to avoid such forced emissions is to create an algorithm for denying some bitcoins as completely lost. To reach that goal we could probably invent some rules that will make bitcoins automatically constantly circulate - or, better, "declare" themselves - on market so that 'dead' ones could be filtered out and re-built after some time.

That would make Bitcoins far less useful.  If you had to keep on registering them with the network any Bitcoins you own have the potential to be worthless in the future.  I don't think it's possibly any other way without compromising the core features of Bitcoins.

Your right it doesn't.  It is commonly proposed by low post count members who think they know how to "fix" Bitcoin after a couple hours of reading/learning.   It would actually be a huge blow to the valuation of Bitcoin.  A cornerstone of Bitcoin is that transactions are irrevocable.  Irrevocable means irrevocable not "kinda irrevocable".  While nobody directly benefits from this recirculations plenty of people directly lose.  Imagine going to prison wrongfully accuse of a crime for 20+ years.  Everything except your brainwallet has been seized by the state.  You get out with your brainwallet intact only to find your irrevocable wealth has been revoked by the protocol because you didn't make a transaction in the last x years/blocks.    Not only is there is direct loss of wealth but the very concept undermines the credibility of the system and thus the value of Bitcoin.

On a more meta level one needs to think what backs Bitcoin.  It is "backed" by its utility.  The irrevocability of transactions is part of that utility and thus value.
Jutarul
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November 27, 2012, 10:00:27 PM
 #7

I think the only way to avoid such forced emissions is to create an algorithm for denying some bitcoins as completely lost. To reach that goal we could probably invent some rules that will make bitcoins automatically constantly circulate - or, better, "declare" themselves - on market so that 'dead' ones could be filtered out and re-built after some time.

That would make Bitcoins far less useful.  If you had to keep on registering them with the network any Bitcoins you own have the potential to be worthless in the future.  I don't think it's possibly any other way without compromising the core features of Bitcoins.

It also would break something: casascius coins.

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"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.", Milton Friedman
Rammix (OP)
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November 28, 2012, 12:57:12 AM
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I just wonder what would happen if banks have foreseen the future of Bitcoin and see it as an alarming competitor, then they bought tons and tons of bitcoins and continue to do so while its cost is not that high with respect to a currency so that they could hoard bitcoins and keep those from being circulated to other Bitcoin users, in order to hinder the growth of the Bitcoin community and potentially kill it. What do you think boys and girls?
The threat of banking system is not that it can collect all bitcoins etc. "If you want to destroy something good, accept it and become its leader" - sorry I don't remember the exact phrase. For bitcoin getting legitimized and used by banks means that banks will consume and - more importantly - use it like any other currency: over time they will accumulate bitcoins through credit system aquiring control over more and more goods. Deflation of bitcoins will make banks even richer, will leave less bitcoins on the market making every coin more valuable, forcing to divide bitcoin to smaller pieces.
I agree that it's a social problem, but creating (or trying to create) an international currency we must look for ways of solving or at least avoiding this problem. Otherwise bitcoin will get infected by the worst deseases of traditional money.

Ehh, everything? It's completely the opposite thing.

Banks and the ECB (or FED in the U.S.) create money out of thin air. By the billions. All this money printing (well it's not exactly 'printing', just flipping some bits on a few servers) creates more money, making our existing euros or dollars less valuable.

If, for whatever reason (because coins are lost or more people join Bitcoin or whatever), tomorrow the Bitcoin economy decides to value millibitcoins the same as we value bitcoins today, our existing money becomes MORE valuable.
Problem is not in value of coins. It's in bitcoin's pseudo fixed amount. Inflation is caused by additional emissions that are caused by insufficient amount of money on the market and inflation makes amount of minimal pieces of money grow over time. Deflation means the same lack of money and it also will make us increase amount of minimal pieces of bitcoin (because of different inevitable losses and because of banking system with its borrowing percent above 0). In other words, there is emission of money in both cases. It's just opposite sides of the same.. coin.

NOT a few privileged puppeteers who can create billions at their whim, screwing over the rest of the world bigtime.
Now we own bitcoin, after some years banks will own it. Most of world's money is owned by banks, especially through debts. Bitcoind in its current form has no built-in defence against such slow and traditionalized form of theft.

And the Bitcoin economy itself is obviously completely independent of any banking system whatsoever. No harm done.
It's independent while it's not accepted, that's all. Governments and laws is fiction, real control comes unofficially - through understanding of global social mechanisms and having 'keys' for manipulating them.

I understand that bitcoin's benefit is in decentralized nature of its transactions. Maybe it will sound a bit too idealistic but, anyway... such a good idea like global decentralized currency must have in it much-much more than just security of transactions. Idea of bitcoin must include social and political aspects. Because what we're trying to do means global responsibility.
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November 28, 2012, 01:19:23 AM
 #9

I agree that it's a social problem, but creating (or trying to create) an international currency we must look for ways of solving or at least avoiding this problem. Otherwise bitcoin will get infected by the worst deseases of traditional money.
bitcoin is a technical solution to a technical problem.

If you want a solutions to social problems you need to elect proper governments.

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"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.", Milton Friedman
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November 28, 2012, 03:44:13 AM
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Bitcoin already solves a major problem -  You can use it to move money around internationally without any interference.
Have you ever tried crossing a national border with gold bars, diamonds, etc?
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November 28, 2012, 03:51:06 AM
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I agree that it's a social problem, but creating (or trying to create) an international currency we must look for ways of solving or at least avoiding this problem. Otherwise bitcoin will get infected by the worst deseases of traditional money.
bitcoin is a technical solution to a technical problem.

If you want a solutions to social problems you need to elect proper governments.

+1 If you want people to stop giving their money to financial institutions, you need to educate people, not create a currency that prohibits them from doing so.

Still around.
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November 28, 2012, 04:18:19 AM
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The Bitcoin network is the most powerful super computer at the moment. In order to take control, you'd theoretically need 51% of the hashing power and a break in the protocol, and kidnapping this forum and all the developers, and releasing a modified client, that everyone has to download.

The reality is that you'd need a lot more than 51% of the network for an extended period of time. You'd have to compete with deepbit, p2pool, and all the independent miners out there and come up with several block chain forks to disrupt the bitcoin network. And you'd need to keep this up for some time.

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November 28, 2012, 04:42:52 AM
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The Bitcoin network is the most powerful super computer at the moment. In order to take control, you'd theoretically need 51% of the hashing power and a break in the protocol, and kidnapping this forum and all the developers, and releasing a modified client, that everyone has to download.

The reality is that you'd need a lot more than 51% of the network for an extended period of time. You'd have to compete with deepbit, p2pool, and all the independent miners out there and come up with several block chain forks to disrupt the bitcoin network. And you'd need to keep this up for some time.
fixed that for you

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"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.", Milton Friedman
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November 28, 2012, 04:54:27 AM
 #14

If I'm totally wrong (though I'm sure that I'm right) please try to explain why.  Grin
You're wrong because bitcoin solves a very particular problem: transparent money policy and global, irreversible and reliable payment processing.

Jutaul mentions the one thing I think is often ignored - bitcoin will be very good at replacing credit cards and paypal with a reliable and irreversible payment method.

Internet purchases are becoming more common. As these purchases become a greater part of any consumers spending ( and any merchants sales ), I think Paypal will begin to fail. If bitcoin does gain wider acceptance for this use case alone, it will be sufficient to see bitcoin succeed long term.



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