What are these Bitcoin cards tied to Visa?

[thinair]

I am annoyed at what I read in some mainstream "news" here in Singapore:
"A Singapore-based startup has big plans for digital currency: The firm, called TenX, intends to issue a pre-paid card that will “Take Bitcoin Into [the] Real World With Visa.” Or at least that’s what the headline says.

Googling don't exactly tell me how these "Visa" cards have anything to do with bitcoin. How could bitcoins be debited for normal payments at retailers. What exchange rates do they use. If some big retailers really accept bitcoins, it is the same as accepting FX and taking the exchange risk. If the total is great, so would be the risk.

Can someone please clarify.

[TryNinja]

AFAIK the startup (TenX) is a intermediary between the Bitcoin users and VISA. Every time you deposit and spend your coins with TenX, they will sell them in the market and "pay VISA" with that money. It's not entirely Bitcoin-Bitcoin transactions, since the merchant is receiving in Dollars. But it's a easy way to keep your coins while you can use them in purchases that don't accept Bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency.

They have their own rate, so I can't comment on that.

[thinair]

AFAIK the startup (TenX) is a intermediary between the Bitcoin users and VISA. Every time you deposit and spend your coins with TenX, they will sell them in the market and "pay VISA" with that money. It's not entirely Bitcoin-Bitcoin transactions, since the merchant is receiving in Dollars. But it's a easy way to keep your coins while you can use them in purchases that don't accept Bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency.

They have their own rate, so I can't comment on that.

Holy of Holies ! - "They have their own rate...".

I still can't understand and am annoyed as googling gives me zero clarifications.

I read somewhere ".. even the cashiers don't know you are paying with bitcoins" How on earth do I pay with BTC? Tell what BTC mechanism is there for me to give them the exact amount of BTC. No way that I could think off and Lighting Network is not here yet.  

[edit] I think these great wits "talk" without having a clue what they are saying.

[thinair]

PAYMENT PLATFORM WHITEPAPER
Final Version: June 21st 2017 (51 pages)
https://www.tenx.tech/whitepaper/tenx_whitepaper_final.pdf

I only want to "apply for a card to use my bitcoins to buy things." I don't want to study a 51 pages legal document and take the bar examination to become a barrister!

Please tell, how to calculate exchange rates! This world of finance is really a scam

[Iranus]

I read somewhere ".. even the cashiers don't know you are paying with bitcoins" How on earth do I pay with BTC? Tell what BTC mechanism is there for me to give them the exact amount of BTC. No way that I could think off and Lighting Network is not here yet.  

You are not paying with Bitcoin.  You are holding Bitcoin in a third party wallet with a company that has the power to sell your Bitcoin for fiat money.

When you use your debit card at a merchant, TenX will spend fiat.  As soon as possible, they will sell your BTC for the amount of fiat that you spend (at a rate which they decide, usually a slightly worse rate than market rate so that they can make a profit), and they will subtract the amount of BTC that they sold from your balance.

So basically, it looks to the user like you're spending BTC, when in fact you're not.

What exchange rates do they use.

They are intentionally vague about this, so they're probably giving you a bad exchange rate.  I personally use Xapo, and with them I can see their current exchange rate from my account at any time.

[thinair]

I read somewhere ".. even the cashiers don't know you are paying with bitcoins" How on earth do I pay with BTC? Tell what BTC mechanism is there for me to give them the exact amount of BTC. No way that I could think off and Lighting Network is not here yet.  

You are not paying with Bitcoin.  You are holding Bitcoin in a third party wallet with a company that has the power to sell your Bitcoin for fiat money.

When you use your debit card at a merchant, TenX will spend fiat.  As soon as possible, they will sell your BTC for the amount of fiat that you spend (at a rate which they decide, usually a slightly worse rate than market rate so that they can make a profit), and they will subtract the amount of BTC that they sold from your balance.

So basically, it looks to the user like you're spending BTC, when in fact you're not.

What exchange rates do they use.

They are intentionally vague about this, so they're probably giving you a bad exchange rate.  I personally use Xapo, and with them I can see their current exchange rate from my account at any time.

Thanks. Best answer I got so far.

I make a guess. It is like trading with a bitcoin exchange where I deposit some amount of BTC (or some fiat which got converted to BTC , and then sell again???)  mainly for sell purpose. When I make a purchase, they will debit my BTC at "their" rate to pay my purchase. With TenX, they somehow sell on our behalf my BTC. So what it means I am selling and using BTC at a rate determined by them. It seems I need to top up my BTC when they are depleted. So it is selling BTC and using the fiat proceeds instead of keeping the fiat.

I doubt there is anything in this TenX thingy that we may take as an "innovation by a startUp" - as creative as a block of wood! I think I'll rather open a trading account and sell BTC there at "spot" rate wholesale. Use pocket bills and coins to make daily purchases. Why a roundabout system? Occam's razor - simplicity.

The TenX video from your link - I don't think I get a clue what he was "selling". I won't buy with such a marketing video presentation.    

[NeuroticFish]

Let me try to explain, maybe I'll be clearer.
Let's say you have such a card. You deposit 0.1 BTC to TenX. Then you convert. Let's say that on the exchanges, Bitcoin is around 10000$ if you sell and 10005$ if you buy.
TenX probably will get around 3% for itself, so you'll end up with (0.1 * 10000) - 3% - some tx fees, withdraw fees, exchange fees  = 966$
From this point you have a preloaded VISA card with 966$ you can use normally.
Whenever you want, you can add more Bitcoin and exchange. The actual VISA card will always have only Dollars on it.

[thinair]

Let me try to explain, maybe I'll be clearer.
Let's say you have such a card. You deposit 0.1 BTC to TenX. Then you convert. Let's say that on the exchanges, Bitcoin is around 10000$ if you sell and 10005$ if you buy.
TenX probably will get around 3% for itself, so you'll end up with (0.1 * 10000) - 3% - some tx fees, withdraw fees, exchange fees  = 966$
From this point you have a preloaded VISA card with 966$ you can use normally.
Whenever you want, you can add more Bitcoin and exchange. The actual VISA card will always have only Dollars on it.

Thanks very much (I don't have a Card ever). Very clear now. I am just letting them convert my BTC to fiat stored in some Visa/MaterCard... whatever.  No use to the criminals who need to launder at least USD 1 million per deal!

I'll try to be more innovative then TenX and have a proposal to present to Xi Jinping!     

[AlexaSonda]

USE CASES

An user with a TenX physical card and the wallet installed on his phone can, for example, go shopping and pay with ETH in all stores that accept standard Visa or Master Card debit or credit cards. When the user swipes his Ten X card, the store Point of Sale recognizes it as a valid VISA/Master Card card and connects to the TenX network. USD price is converted to ETH on TenX’s own exchange and the correspondent amount of Ethereum is deducted from the user’s wallet. Should the user prefer not to carry a credit card, in the future he will be able to use his phone by swiping it on the PoS Near Field Communication reader. The user’s credit on his mobile wallet gets instantaneously updated and the transaction gets logged. To pay the store TenX converts the ETH expense back to USD and transfers that amount to the store’s own credit card network account, minus a 2% interchange fees — just like any credit card payment. Of that two percent TenX gets the 0.5% from each transaction.
In the future TenX users will be able to spend not only ETH tokens, but also all the crypto tokens available on the biggest crypto currencies exchange markets, thanks to the COMIT technology they are developing. COMIT is a network that allows instant, frictionless payments for a fraction of the original cost. Thanks to COMIT users and banks will have access to any asset or business process connected to Bitcoin, Ethereum or any other blockchain.

Source https://medium.com/@VerthagOG/tenx-ico-investment-analysis-17fda6297e6d

[Beerwizzard]

Just notify that there already was a several projects offering their crypo cards. Some of them are having the problems with Visa (or MasterCard, whatever they use) so using such cards might not be that safe as it supposed to be. Also they normaly have some restrictions based on your country and they usualy dont work with local currencies (or they do but the fee is pretty big).

[thinair]

USE CASES

An user with a TenX physical card and the wallet installed on his phone can, for example, go shopping and pay with ETH in all stores that accept standard Visa or Master Card debit or credit cards. When the user swipes his Ten X card, the store Point of Sale recognizes it as a valid VISA/Master Card card and connects to the TenX network. USD price is converted to ETH on TenX’s own exchange and the correspondent amount of Ethereum is deducted from the user’s wallet. Should the user prefer not to carry a credit card, in the future he will be able to use his phone by swiping it on the PoS Near Field Communication reader. The user’s credit on his mobile wallet gets instantaneously updated and the transaction gets logged. To pay the store TenX converts the ETH expense back to USD and transfers that amount to the store’s own credit card network account, minus a 2% interchange fees — just like any credit card payment. Of that two percent TenX gets the 0.5% from each transaction.
In the future TenX users will be able to spend not only ETH tokens, but also all the crypto tokens available on the biggest crypto currencies exchange markets, thanks to the COMIT technology they are developing. COMIT is a network that allows instant, frictionless payments for a fraction of the original cost. Thanks to COMIT users and banks will have access to any asset or business process connected to Bitcoin, Ethereum or any other blockchain.

Source https://medium.com/@VerthagOG/tenx-ico-investment-analysis-17fda6297e6d

I am not actually into details of such cards using crypto. I do have understanding about this blockchain technology.  All these usual electronic fiat payment system works because they have already a well connected banking network in the world.

But with crypto i just think there may be great issue with giving a fair rate. If we assume TenX cards to be a form of forex kiosk (Singapore known as money changer), another layer of connection to TenX dealer network may make such system slow or the rates far out with the spot in order that TenX won't be at any exchange risk. But it seems money changer somehow can give good rates.

[mobnepal]

From what I have experienced when using bitcoin debit cards (tens of them to be in service before):

1. They will have some money pre-loaded in their business account at wavecrest holding (Visa card issuer who will just stamp the service name on front)

2. All these card services either have their own inbuilt exchange section or uses bots to quickly trade whatever bitcoin they will get from deposit in the exchange where they will have bitcoin at market rate. In this way they are cutting risk of losing anything from price volatility.

3. Now they will add less that what they will get after selling same amount of bitcoin on exchange to that depositor's/uses account.

4. They also have heavy charges on different operations charged by wavecrest (card issuer) but offcourse card service provider will also get their cut. That's the real reason behind massive free virtual/plastic card giveaway from those card services.


Now wavecrest or almost all bitcoin card service provider can only issue card to european citizens, many people have left out of alternatives.

[thinair]

From what I have experienced when using bitcoin debit cards (tens of them to be in service before):

1. They will have some money pre-loaded in their business account at wavecrest holding (Visa card issuer who will just stamp the service name on front)

2. All these card services either have their own inbuilt exchange section or uses bots to quickly trade whatever bitcoin they will get from deposit in the exchange where they will have bitcoin at market rate. In this way they are cutting risk of losing anything from price volatility.

3. Now they will add less that what they will get after selling same amount of bitcoin on exchange to that depositor's/uses account.

4. They also have heavy charges on different operations charged by wavecrest (card issuer) but offcourse card service provider will also get their cut. That's the real reason behind massive free virtual/plastic card giveaway from those card services.


Now wavecrest or almost all bitcoin card service provider can only issue card to european citizens, many people have left out of alternatives.

Very good details. I have just read about "in built" exchanges in cards. I am not too sure they would be considered "cutting edge innovations" benefitting  end users.

[dothebeats]

These are debit cards, like the ones you load with cash and use to spend on groceries, restaurants and stuff. It comes in handy whenever you're stuck without cash but you have some spare bitcoin in your phone that you can just load your debit card up whenever you want to.

Now wavecrest or almost all bitcoin card service provider can only issue card to european citizens, many people have left out of alternatives.

This is correct. As a user of one of their issued debit cards that I use for online shopping, they have halted their operations outside Europe since September due to certain regulations/law that prevent them from delivering service outside of EU.

[cryptojedi]

I guess it s gotta to do with Visa/Mastercard being universally accepted on almost any ATM and POS machine. However, I see Tenx and Wirex are actively working on providing an alternative solution. After listening to Julian, from Tenx, last week, he mentioned they d announce a new provider very soon, probably this coming week.

All in all, one cannot stop crypto adoption by these AML/location based rules. There is always a way to overcome this.

[CyberKuro]

Well, most third party (even BitPay) as intermediary for customers and spending bitcoin in the form of cards always have their own method and exchange rate to calculate bitcoin price to fiat currency. In this case, they have to comply all the documents about legality of Visa and deal with various sectors (merchants, etc) to accept their cards. But, if you do not trust them, no need to deal with them.