Free State Project - Western States

[cryptoanarchist]

I've seen the posts by Finshaggy for his zeitgeist wet dream city, and the ridiculous "bitcoin island" thread and Seasteading.
ALL STUPID IDEAS

Why not do something that has already been working? The Free State Project in New Hampshire has made great gains in liberty in just a few short years, and there's no telling how much faster things can move with a healthy bitcoin economy thrown in the mix.

The problem for a lot of libertarian/anarchists with FSP, is that if you live in the southwest, the idea of moving to frigid NH is just not in the cards. Not only would NH weather be a downer for someone from Phoenix or LA, but the east coast culture is a lot different too (we're used to more attractive women than NH can offer, for instance).

The obvious choice for people wishing there was a place in the USSA to live in relative freedom, is to copy a proven formula, and the FSP is just that.

My question for the rest of you is "Where?"

[RandomQ]

I think Arizona and our constitutional carry gun laws, would make a great start for a "Free" state. But there are major problem with the state of Arizona, our property tax laws are a mess and too many special interests have too much control adding "special taxes" onto property taxes. The Lower part of the state is a 50 mile zone were the 4th amendment doesn't apply anymore, according to the federal government. Also I feel that because we are so close to the evil republic of "Kalifornia" its going to have a negative effect on Arizona due to close close proximity. When I first moved to Arizona more than 50% of the people on my block escaped from Kalifornia including myself. This influx of people fleeing Kalifornia implosion in the future will have a negative effect on the values that make Arizona unique currently.

I think Colorado might be a bad choice because of the newly passed gun laws. Are you really free if you can't protect yourself from your government?

[RandomQ]

found this PDF about free state Montana... maybe another possible choice

http://freestateproject.org/files/montana.pdf

[nobbynobbynoob]

Montana or New Hampshire for mine, if I had to live in the US. I'm glad I don't live in the US TBH, though I'm currently in the EUSSR which in a lot of ways is worse. Thankfully we don't have the TSA.

[cryptoanarchist]

Looks pretty strong for Colorado at the moment, and I can see why.

First off, it doesn't matter where you go in USSA, there is going to be oppressive government in one form or another. Like in AZ you have more gun rights, but you also have lots of checkpoints. In Colorado, you have less taxes, but you can get thrown in prison for open carrying in Denver. Six of one, half-dozen of the other as my grandmother used to say.

So I'm looking at a few other factors.

1. Low population - If 10,000 libertarians move to L.A., they aren't going to make a bit of difference surrounded by millions of dumbed down socialists. If 100 libertarians move to a tiny town like Ouray, CO (pop. ~1000), they will dramatically alter the town's demographics. 500 libertarians will completely take over the town.

2. Central to other population centers - We would need to make it as inviting as possible to the most amount of people. The shorter the move, the easier it is in most people's minds. If they can drive back to their city of origin in less than a day to visit friends and family, the more likely they are to move.

3. Self-Sufficient - I can't see how USSA is going to avoid dollar collapse and SHTF. It will happen eventually, and its not far off. In that case, we'd want to have access to natural resources and be able to survive without any outside help at all.

4. Employment opportunities  - This sorta ties into #3, since as long as we have our own resources, there will always be jobs for anyone who moves there.


The San Juan mountains satisfy ALL of these conditions and is also one of the most beautiful places in the world.

Oh, and there is BILLIONS, if not TRILLIONS, of dollars worth of gold and silver still in those mountains.

[RandomQ]

One of the things that scares me right now about Colorado, is the the mini civil war they are having regarding gun rights. They pass some pretty heavy duty gun laws. Now the sheriffs are saying they aren't going to enforce these laws. Two of the law makers than spearheaded these laws and going to have to fight recalls. I've also heard that there *might* be an federal executive order to remove sheriffs that won't enforce gun laws.

I'm wonder that the population of Montana (1 million), might make it a better choice because of how easy it would be to get representation at the state level. Because it has 1/5th the population of Colorado.

But another possibility was Wyoming, which came in second place during the FSP voting.

Arizona is a great place to live (Its going to be 117-118F this weekend) 

/FYI

In case anyone thinks I'm flaming this thread
I'm a registered Libertarian  

[cryptoanarchist]

One of the things that scares me right now about Colorado, is the the mini civil war they are having regarding gun rights. They pass some pretty heavy duty gun laws. Now the sheriffs are saying they aren't going to enforce these laws. Two of the law makers than spearheaded these laws and going to have to fight recalls. I've also heard that there *might* be an federal executive order to remove sheriffs that won't enforce gun laws.

I'm wonder that the population of Montana (1 million), might make it a better choice because of how easy it would be to get representation at the state level. Because it has 1/5th the population of Colorado.

But another possibility was Wyoming, which came in second place during the FSP voting.

Arizona is a great place to live (Its going to be 117-118F this weekend) 

/FYI

In case anyone thinks I'm flaming this thread
I'm a registered Libertarian  

meh...I don't think representation at the state level is the right way to go anyway. The FSP in NH has picked up seats in the State house, but it hasn't amounted to much compared to the difference made from activism and civil disobedience. The most important thing is to have a lot of people that can support each other.

Really, it should be called the Free City Project, to focus on a smaller area. Montana might have a population of 1 million, but the city of Ouray, CO has a population of <1000. If we were the majority in a small city like that, then it really wouldn't matter what crap they were doing in the Statehouse in Denver.

[shawshankinmate37927]

Wyoming has no state income tax and is also the state with the lowest population, making it easier to influence the political process.

This bill didn't pass their legislature, but it gives you an idea of how seriously some people in Wyoming take the Constitution:

http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/14187-wyoming-bill-would-nullify-obama-gun-control-jail-feds

I've never been there myself, but from what I've read and from pictures I've seen, Jackson Hole looks like it might be a nice place to live.

[twobits]

Didn't the fsp research a bunch of states then vote on them?  Maybe it would make sense to find that research and results as a starting point?  On the other hand,   it may be too early to dilute their effort.

[wdmw]

Not only would NH weather be a downer for someone from Phoenix or LA, but the east coast culture is a lot different too (we're used to more attractive women than NH can offer, for instance).

Ahem..

https://www.facebook.com/pages/New-Hampshire-Girls/100730633315087

[cryptoanarchist]

Not only would NH weather be a downer for someone from Phoenix or LA, but the east coast culture is a lot different too (we're used to more attractive women than NH can offer, for instance).

Ahem..

https://www.facebook.com/pages/New-Hampshire-Girls/100730633315087

That link just proves the point.

[ViolentDelights]

Isn't the FSP - west already in Wyoming?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_Wyoming

[cryptoanarchist]

Isn't the FSP - west already in Wyoming?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_Wyoming

No. Unlike the one in NH, you can find no videos of activism there. There are no events there. Mainly because, there just aren't that many people. It's not the most convenient place to live for most people. That's why somewhere more centralized, with closer access to a populated city makes more sense.

Ouray, CO has close access to Montrose, where people could commute to work. Montrose is a relatively small city but it has a Target, Home Depot and an airport.

[benjamindees]

Yeah, right.  A city is unrealistic, but let's take over a state.  Good luck with that.

[Elwar]

I was involved in the Free State Project from the first year, it is not just about picking any random state. It was born out of a study that Jason Sorens did on what happened in Quebec when a small minority was able to take control of the government. He extrapolated the data to come up with the figure that you would need 20,000 activists in a state with less than 2 million people to be able to play a major role in the state government.

From there, 10 states with less than 2 million people were put up for a vote. The first 5,000 people to pledge to the Free State Project were allowed to vote for one of the 10 states.

The results were:
1. New Hampshire
2. Wyoming
3. Montana
4. Idaho
5. Alaska
6. Maine
7. Vermont
8. Delaware
9. South Dakota
10. North Dakota

I recall Wyoming being high on many people's lists because of the large amount of natural resources and wind energy with low cost of living and cheap land. Montana was another good one because of their history of being very self reliant, their large border with Canada (allowing for easy trade if seccession ever occurred) and the vast amount of land allowing for large land purchases. People in Montana were also very welcoming of the Free Staters.

It would have been interesting if they had chosen North Dakota right before the oil boom. But nobody wants to live in North Dakota.

[cryptoanarchist]

I was involved in the Free State Project from the first year, it is not just about picking any random state. It was born out of a study that Jason Sorens did on what happened in Quebec when a small minority was able to take control of the government. He extrapolated the data to come up with the figure that you would need 20,000 activists in a state with less than 2 million people to be able to play a major role in the state government.

From there, 10 states with less than 2 million people were put up for a vote. The first 5,000 people to pledge to the Free State Project were allowed to vote for one of the 10 states.

The results were:
1. New Hampshire
2. Wyoming
3. Montana
4. Idaho
5. Alaska
6. Maine
7. Vermont
8. Delaware
9. South Dakota
10. North Dakota

I recall Wyoming being high on many people's lists because of the large amount of natural resources and wind energy with low cost of living and cheap land. Montana was another good one because of their history of being very self reliant, their large border with Canada (allowing for easy trade if seccession ever occurred) and the vast amount of land allowing for large land purchases. People in Montana were also very welcoming of the Free Staters.

It would have been interesting if they had chosen North Dakota right before the oil boom. But nobody wants to live in North Dakota.

To me, I think the mission has changed a bit from when they started the FSP. It's been over 10 years, and I think that many of the people who went into it as libertarians would now identify themselves as voluntaryists, and that's because as libertarians have been forced to argue their position, they had to become voluntaryists to have the logically sound philosophy.

So in that regard, I think planning based on a taking over a "control of the government" would be a hard sell to most freedom loving people today. More important is creating a projected majority, and a support network.

[cryptoanarchist]

Anyone who voted 'Colorado', please PM me for some new info.

[thebaron]

We already know how "Free State Wyoming" is going. Nowhere, that is.

[cryptoanarchist]

We already know how "Free State Wyoming" is going. Nowhere, that is.

Right - because it was a bad idea and poorly managed.

[infested999]

NH is my favorite state just because they had the balls to put this on their license plate: