Truth Hurts - Mastercoin Shifts Burden Of Potential Growth To Everyone

[TraderTimm]

Well, it finally happened - I had a post deleted from this thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=333487 - "I predict a lot of strain on the Bitcoin network soon due to Mastercoin"

In the midst of their hearty round of backslapping and deer-eyed surprise at their "protocol" potentially straining the Bitcoin network, to wit:

There will be a lot of transactions on it very soon. I think that perhaps in 2-3 months we'll put a lot more strain on the network that SatoshiDice.

Oh my, isn't that just wonderful.

ripper234 couldn't take the following post from myself, as it is a little too close to home:

"Hey guys, we keep pumping oil into the gulf of mexico - any way you can step up your rate of cleanup?" - Signed, Mastercoin devs.

You guys are really mental. You've been warned, and *now* it is OUR problem? Thanks for hitching your fail-o-col to Bitcoin, you idiots.

Am I enraged at their stance towards the blockchain? You're damned right I am. Here we have some ostensibly "intelligent" people who are trying their best to turn each block into an overstuffed pressure chamber, primed to explode. (Metaphorically, as it were.)

So as they make their plans to soon create a system that has no opt-in when it comes to sharing the burden, I just want you guys to remember this point in time - the point where they couldn't - and wouldn't - face up to the real injustice happening here, the exploitation of everyone's resources.

May Satoshi save us - or at the very least, some sane people in the Bitcoin technosphere.

[Gab1159]

Can't they switch to another blockchain such as Litecoin, it's not like Litecoin has too much stress on its protocol right now...

[blablahblah]

You want to wield the awesome power of a full node, but with 0 running costs?

You want the exchange rate to keep increasing at a massive exponential rate because of speculation about Bitcoin's amazing potential, but you don't want the inconvenience of real-world usage coming into play?

Explain me like I'm 5.

[TraderTimm]

You want to wield the awesome power of a full node, but with 0 running costs?

You want the exchange rate to keep increasing at a massive exponential rate because of speculation about Bitcoin's amazing potential, but you don't want the inconvenience of real-world usage coming into play?

Explain me like I'm 5.

Sure, no problem.

They've devised a scheme where they are using Bitcoin as their hashing-power mule, because they know on their own they'd have to do real work to build another network with miners. This an exploitation of the hashing power of the Bitcoin network, because unlike other alt-coins, they've decided to attach themselves to ours.

What this means is, there is no opt-out for any user in the Bitcoin ecosphere. You'll be processing their disastercoin-stuffed blocks, as a full node or as a miner, unless there is a specific way to exclude them - which may appear in the future if they burden the system too much.

I'd prefer that they stop acting out the "Tragedy of the Commons" right in front of us, and start their own chain. After all, if the idea has MERIT, it should succeed regardless, right? But no, they won't, because the money-blinders are fully in place, and they're congratulating themselves in exploiting every user of Bitcoin towards their own ends. (ie., their threads are full of future claims of getting rich, etc...)


This isn't about a "protcol", its about an ego-driven mob that is abusing every user in the Bitcoin network.

[bluemeanie1]

Am I enraged at their stance towards the blockchain? You're damned right I am. Here we have some ostensibly "intelligent" people who are trying their best to turn each block into an overstuffed pressure chamber, primed to explode. (Metaphorically, as it were.)

So as they make their plans to soon create a system that has no opt-in when it comes to sharing the burden, I just want you guys to remember this point in time - the point where they couldn't - and wouldn't - face up to the real injustice happening here, the exploitation of everyone's resources.

yep this is the fundamental problem with the Color Coins architecture.

note though I don't hold either Yoni Assia or Meni Rosenfeld liable for malice in this case, I just don't think they realized this at the time.  The problems we're raised to Alex Mizrahi by myself on the BitcoinX list and he at first couldn't grasp the complexities of the points I was making, then finally did but pretended like they weren't a problem.

the Mastercoin people showed up after all these discussions took place.

More than likely you're going to get some people in the network who will deny their transactions, some might actually start charging Mastercoin for the transactions which will lead to other forms of capital involvement. IBM is already on that.

The Color Coins architecture turns some basic assumptions in Bitcoin into a kind of resource which then is converted into a kind of functionality(that is bankable according to Mastercoin).  So yes its a kind of reaping of the value that everyone put into the Bitcoin network.  It's not sustainable without major reworking of Bitcoin, and I think some parties anticipate this.

[bluemeanie1]

What this means is, there is no opt-out for any user in the Bitcoin ecosphere. You'll be processing their disastercoin-stuffed blocks, as a full node or as a miner, unless there is a specific way to exclude them - which may appear in the future if they burden the system too much.

Even if individuals blocked them, there's nothing stopping a mining pool for instance from including Disastercoin txs in their blocks, and thus if they have the mining power, you must accept them into the chain.  It's a major fundamental flaw with Bitcoin that was temporarily fixed with COIN_DUST, but this did not provide a complete solution to the problem.  Confidence Chains fully addresses these issues.

I'd prefer that they stop acting out the "Tragedy of the Commons" right in front of us, and start their own chain. After all, if the idea has MERIT, it should succeed regardless, right? But no, they won't, because the money-blinders are fully in place, and they're congratulating themselves in exploiting every user of Bitcoin towards their own ends. (ie., their threads are full of future claims of getting rich, etc...)

that's exactly what is happening.

This isn't about a "protcol", its about an ego-driven mob that is abusing every user in the Bitcoin network.

yep.

[Luckybit]

Am I enraged at their stance towards the blockchain? You're damned right I am. Here we have some ostensibly "intelligent" people who are trying their best to turn each block into an overstuffed pressure chamber, primed to explode. (Metaphorically, as it were.)

So as they make their plans to soon create a system that has no opt-in when it comes to sharing the burden, I just want you guys to remember this point in time - the point where they couldn't - and wouldn't - face up to the real injustice happening here, the exploitation of everyone's resources.

yep this is the fundamental problem with the Color Coins architecture.

note though I don't hold either Yoni Assia or Meni Rosenfeld liable for malice in this case, I just don't think they realized this at the time.  The problems we're raised to Alex Mizrahi by myself on the BitcoinX list and he at first couldn't grasp the complexities of the points I was making, then finally did but pretended like they weren't a problem.

the Mastercoin people showed up after all these discussions took place.

More than likely you're going to get some people in the network who will deny their transactions, some might actually start charging Mastercoin for the transactions which will lead to other forms of capital involvement. IBM is already on that.

The Color Coins architecture turns some basic assumptions in Bitcoin into a kind of resource which then is converted into a kind of functionality(that is bankable according to Mastercoin).  So yes its a kind of reaping of the value that everyone put into the Bitcoin network.  It's not sustainable without major reworking of Bitcoin, and I think some parties anticipate this.

Can you provide a reference to this IBM/Mastercoin rumor?

[Rupture]

What's the purpose of mastercoin?

[TraderTimm]

What's the purpose of disastercoin?

To enrich yet another pre-mined scheme that tacks on a centralized "escrow" feature, all the while the developer gets an income from donated funds, rubber-stamped by their "board". Its like the worst parts of an alt-coin and a virus stuck together, added in with a bit of investor mania and get-rich-schemes.

Any criticism is cast off by the lead people involved, because it would interfere with them being responsible blockchain citizens. They prefer to exploit the miners and full node users of Bitcoin instead. Why? Just because they can. Wonderful bunch, all around - they should work as government lobbyists with those kinds of ethics. (ie., We'll do anything as long as the check clears the bank.)

[crazy_rabbit]

Well, it finally happened - I had a post deleted from this thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=333487 - "I predict a lot of strain on the Bitcoin network soon due to Mastercoin"

In the midst of their hearty round of backslapping and deer-eyed surprise at their "protocol" potentially straining the Bitcoin network, to wit:

There will be a lot of transactions on it very soon. I think that perhaps in 2-3 months we'll put a lot more strain on the network that SatoshiDice.

Oh my, isn't that just wonderful.

ripper234 couldn't take the following post from myself, as it is a little too close to home:

"Hey guys, we keep pumping oil into the gulf of mexico - any way you can step up your rate of cleanup?" - Signed, Mastercoin devs.

You guys are really mental. You've been warned, and *now* it is OUR problem? Thanks for hitching your fail-o-col to Bitcoin, you idiots.

Am I enraged at their stance towards the blockchain? You're damned right I am. Here we have some ostensibly "intelligent" people who are trying their best to turn each block into an overstuffed pressure chamber, primed to explode. (Metaphorically, as it were.)

So as they make their plans to soon create a system that has no opt-in when it comes to sharing the burden, I just want you guys to remember this point in time - the point where they couldn't - and wouldn't - face up to the real injustice happening here, the exploitation of everyone's resources.

May Satoshi save us - or at the very least, some sane people in the Bitcoin technosphere.

You have a point, but lets be honest- Mastercoin is going to blow up in a very 'relative' sense. I'm not worried. That said, Bitcoin is going to have to figure out how to handle ungodly amounts of data volume very, very, soon. Kicking the can down the road won't help. Nor will picking on mastercoin for blowing up the Blockchain traffic because it's easy to pick on their project versus the hundreds of millions of people we hope to have onboard bitcoin in the coming years.

The blockchain has got to grow, we've just got to live with that. Mastercoin wasn't the first blockchain bloater, and it won't be the last.

[TraderTimm]

You have a point, but lets be honest- disastercoin is going to blow up in a very 'relative' sense. I'm not worried. That said, Bitcoin is going to have to figure out how to handle ungodly amounts of data volume very, very, soon. Kicking the can down the road won't help. Nor will picking on disastercoin for blowing up the Blockchain traffic because it's easy to pick on their project versus the hundreds of millions of people we hope to have onboard bitcoin in the coming years.

The blockchain has got to grow, we've just got to live with that. disastercoin wasn't the first blockchain bloater, and it won't be the last.

The last time I heard counter-arguments like this was when Satoshi Dice was crapping all over the blockchain, leading to a hard-fork. Perhaps we could avoid jamming the accelerator to maximum to ensure the "passengers" make it to the destination, eh? It would be nice to have some careful consideration of consequences instead of the mad-dash to pile up maximum profit.