Equihash miners/Z9 owners. What are you folks mining and why?

[Tailgunner]

With many of the Equihash coins soon to fork (or have already forked) for asic resistance it doesn't seem like there are too many good options left. As far as I can tell most have announced they will fork as a result of the introduction of the Z9 mini and Innosilicon A9. I'm not really sure what coins are going to be left on the table for these miners, the only ones left i'm aware of that don't seem to want to fork are ZEC, ZCL, and KMD. Right now i'm leaning towards KMD or ZCL because the 20% founders fee for ZEC really bothers me. What do you guys think?

[swogerino]

I heard that even Zec is maybe thinking to fork and that would be the best thing they would do if they want their coin to remain in the top 5 or so. If they insist on letting ASICS take over and screw up everything they will be losing market share and many places on many different exchanges.

I would be very happy if they follow Monero example and give back to the users decentralisation, far but far away from ASICS. I see many people are already putting their Z9 or Z9 mini for sale in the section of the forum for sale of the hardware. That means , fork must be just right behind the door so that is a good thing for people who want decentralisation.

[not.you]

I'm mining ZEC personally.  I too think the 20% dev tax is beyond the pale and for that reason I will never hold or use ZEC.  I consider it a shit coin as long as it has that tax which presumably will be forever.  But that doesn't mean I can't mine it.

[Tailgunner]

Since Zclassic is essentially the same thing just with the 20% tax removed is there any particular reason you don't just mine that instead?

[not.you]

Well honestly I look at ZCL as a shit coin too just because it basically carbon copied the original.  I mean if you want an innovative cryptocurrency, make an original and innovative coin.   Copying another coin but changing one tiny thing isn't exactly a recipe for success in my book.  Zcash has some good features, without the tax I think it would be pretty solid.  But a copy coin isn't really my thing either.  I basically looked at it as an attempt to cash in on someone else's success, even though the success they were cashing in on wasn't really deserved.

I am not against mining ZCL either though.  I'll mine whatever.  I trade and hold only a handful of cryptos though with monero being probably my favorite for a number of reasons. 

[basilp]

What about ZEN? Doesn't look like they're going to fork does it? Although they are reducing the mining reward soon. But that'll probably move some hash power to ZEC so not sure how much difference it'll make.

[Tailgunner]

I don't believe ZEN has announced if they are going to fork. But regardless, like you said they are going to reduce the mining reward soon so miners will only be seeing like 75%. That makes it look even less appealing to me than ZEC.

[puwaha]

I know a lot of GPU miners are upset about the Equihash ASICs...  it sucks when you've put a lot of money into GPUs, and then have your margins stripped away.

But look at it another way... Smaller coins are getting 51% attacked.  With a larger network hashrate because of ASICs, it becomes harder for bad actors to rent the GPU hashpower to attack coins.  That may be a factor in ZCash, and possibly Zencash not forking away from ASICs.

[basilp]

I don't believe ZEN has announced if they are going to fork. But regardless, like you said they are going to reduce the mining reward soon so miners will only be seeing like 75%. That makes it look even less appealing to me than ZEC.

I'm thinking get some ZEN now before the reward changes and maybe run a secure node. Also when the reward does change some people will stop mining so difficulty will probably decrease so might end up getting something equivalent.

What I"m really wondering is how much of the Equihash hash rate is still GPUs surely some percentage maybe 50% of the ZEC hash rate is still GPUs (judging by the hash rate near the beginning of the year when it seems unlikely there were secret ASICs mining).

[d57heinz]

I know a lot of GPU miners are upset about the Equihash ASICs...  it sucks when you've put a lot of money into GPUs, and then have your margins stripped away.

But look at it another way... Smaller coins are getting 51% attacked.  With a larger network hashrate because of ASICs, it becomes harder for bad actors to rent the GPU hashpower to attack coins.  That may be a factor in ZCash, and possibly Zencash not forking away from ASICs.

The same people attacking the coins are the same ones going to buy up tons of these ASICS.  Problem will still exist when it’s convienentt to push another narrative.  Just watch and see. This whole system is in Jeapordy due to greedy asic manufacturers.  There was a code of ethics that needed to be followed here or it all falls apart.  We are seeing this in action now.  The only way and I mean the only way we can have true decentralization would be to price power equal across the board.  I’m going to start rattling some ears at the power grids.  Maybe I can get them to start pricing crypto farms accordingingly. Add a premium for being power hogs. Sort of a green tax so to speak.  Hmmm I’m liking this.  What we need tho is a global initiative because if one country has the cheap power then It will all centralize to that region.  If we truly want btc and all the other shitcoins to be secure then we must push for equality.  If we don’t your only being naive to the fact that someone with more money than brains will get off attacking the network just because they can. 

[puwaha]

I know a lot of GPU miners are upset about the Equihash ASICs...  it sucks when you've put a lot of money into GPUs, and then have your margins stripped away.

But look at it another way... Smaller coins are getting 51% attacked.  With a larger network hashrate because of ASICs, it becomes harder for bad actors to rent the GPU hashpower to attack coins.  That may be a factor in ZCash, and possibly Zencash not forking away from ASICs.

The same people attacking the coins are the same ones going to buy up tons of these ASICS.  Problem will still exist when it’s convienentt to push another narrative.  Just watch and see. This whole system is in Jeapordy due to greedy asic manufacturers.

Wasn't that the scenario that Satoshi tried to engineer away?  ASICs will only mine one algo (well, except for the Baikals) so why would someone spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to make hundreds of thousands of dollars... and then be left with hardware that could be useless?  It makes a lot more sense to rent GPUs because they are so versatile and plentiful.  Time is of the essence in 51% attacks.  Amassing a huge warehouse full of ASICs, getting them powered up and preparing for an attack takes a lot of work and effort.  It's so much easier to rent from Nicehash or Miningrigrentals.

There was a code of ethics that needed to be followed here or it all falls apart.  We are seeing this in action now.

This is a game full of greed.  Many have their hearts in the right place, but the scenario we feared (a 51% attack) is so much easier because of trust in decentralization.  Really, it's the pools you have to fear, not people buying ASICs.

The only way and I mean the only way we can have true decentralization would be to price power equal across the board.  I’m going to start rattling some ears at the power grids.  Maybe I can get them to start pricing crypto farms accordingingly. Add a premium for being power hogs. Sort of a green tax so to speak.  Hmmm I’m liking this.  What we need tho is a global initiative because if one country has the cheap power then It will all centralize to that region.  If we truly want btc and all the other shitcoins to be secure then we must push for equality.  If we don’t your only being naive to the fact that someone with more money than brains will get off attacking the network just because they can.  

It's also naive to think that ASICs are the problem.  What's the difference between a coin that is ASIC-resistant and has one million GPUs mining away... versus a pro-ASIC coin that has one million ASICs mining away?  Nothing except for some ideal that people have that mining with GPUs is somehow "more decentralized."

[d57heinz]

I know a lot of GPU miners are upset about the Equihash ASICs...  it sucks when you've put a lot of money into GPUs, and then have your margins stripped away.

But look at it another way... Smaller coins are getting 51% attacked.  With a larger network hashrate because of ASICs, it becomes harder for bad actors to rent the GPU hashpower to attack coins.  That may be a factor in ZCash, and possibly Zencash not forking away from ASICs.

The same people attacking the coins are the same ones going to buy up tons of these ASICS.  Problem will still exist when it’s convienentt to push another narrative.  Just watch and see. This whole system is in Jeapordy due to greedy asic manufacturers.

Wasn't that the scenario that Satoshi tried to engineer away?  ASICs will only mine one algo (well, except for the Baikals) so why would someone spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to make hundreds of thousands of dollars... and then be left with hardware that could be useless?  It makes a lot more sense to rent GPUs because they are so versatile and plentiful.  Time is of the essence in 51% attacks.  Amassing a huge warehouse full of ASICs, getting them powered up and preparing for an attack takes a lot of work and effort.  It's so much easier to rent from Nicehash or Miningrigrentals.

There was a code of ethics that needed to be followed here or it all falls apart.  We are seeing this in action now.

This is a game full of greed.  Many have their hearts in the right place, but the scenario we feared (a 51% attack) is so much easier because of trust in decentralization.  Really, it's the pools you have to fear, not people buying ASICs.

The only way and I mean the only way we can have true decentralization would be to price power equal across the board.  I’m going to start rattling some ears at the power grids.  Maybe I can get them to start pricing crypto farms accordingingly. Add a premium for being power hogs. Sort of a green tax so to speak.  Hmmm I’m liking this.  What we need tho is a global initiative because if one country has the cheap power then It will all centralize to that region.  If we truly want btc and all the other shitcoins to be secure then we must push for equality.  If we don’t your only being naive to the fact that someone with more money than brains will get off attacking the network just because they can.  

It's also naive to think that ASICs are the problem.  What's the difference between a coin that is ASIC-resistant and has one million GPUs mining away... versus a pro-ASIC coin that has one million ASICs mining away?  Nothing except for some ideal that people have that mining with GPUs is somehow "more decentralized."

If it’s naive to think that decentralization is possible. Then what are we creating here exactly.  Why are we wasting megawatts of power on a system we already have. A centralized money printing machine.  Was this China’s way of taking over money creation from the Americans?   What exactly do we have here then?

[puwaha]

If it’s naive to think that decentralization is possible. Then what are we creating here exactly.  Why are we wasting megawatts of power on a system we already have. A centralized money printing machine.  Was this China’s way of taking over money creation from the Americans?   What exactly do we have here then?

I'm framing the GPU vs. ASIC debate in another way.  There are valid reasons why a coin would be anti-ASIC, and valid reasons to be pro-ASIC.  Both camps are trying to solve what appear to be deficiencies in POW consensus.

The anti-ASIC crowd seem to think that GPUs make a coin more decentralized.  While there are millions of GPUs out there, it's naive to think that many very large farms don't already control large percentages of those GPUs... and thus hashrate.  Pools make the "decentralized" argument even worse.

I argue that just changing parameters of a coin to make it harder for an ASIC to mine it leaves the coin vulnerable to 51% attacks.    ASICs don't solve that problem, but they do make it harder to rent the power economically to make a 51% attack.