[2019-07-10] Fold App Enables BTC Lightning Payments at Whole Foods, Starbucks

[mich]

https://www.coindesk.com/fold-app-enables-bitcoin-lightning-payments-at-whole-foods-starbucks?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=coindesk&utm_term=&utm_content=&utm_campaign=Organic%20

Fold, a payments platform, is introducing a lightning network protocol that will allegedly enable users to shop in-store or online at several retailers, including Starbucks, Whole Foods, AMC, Home Depot, and Southwest Airlines.

[Harlot]

No clear indication on what they are really trying to implement but I wonder how will they sync your BTCs for them to settle the transactions in fiat to these establishments. Of course their only route is to have some kind of debit/credit card that the stores are already accepting but from what the article say they might just have some kind of card that has a limited value on it. This will be a tough one for them especially when a lot of other options already exist with BTC debit cards already out in the market.

[Schirer]

No clear indication on what they are really trying to implement but I wonder how will they sync your BTCs for them to settle the transactions in fiat to these establishments. Of course their only route is to have some kind of debit/credit card that the stores are already accepting but from what the article say they might just have some kind of card that has a limited value on it. This will be a tough one for them especially when a lot of other options already exist with BTC debit cards already out in the market.

Red the article. Also did not find how exactly they will work.

It is easy to imagine online payments which are mentioned there like Amazon using virtual credit card.
But I cant imagine what they will do with pre existing POS in physical store other than issuing new card to their customers.

[1Referee]

No clear indication on what they are really trying to implement but I wonder how will they sync your BTCs for them to settle the transactions in fiat to these establishments. Of course their only route is to have some kind of debit/credit card that the stores are already accepting but from what the article say they might just have some kind of card that has a limited value on it. This will be a tough one for them especially when a lot of other options already exist with BTC debit cards already out in the market.

Not exactly sure what you're referring to, but the said merchants don't have to do anything. Fold will update it's infrastructure so that merchants will be able to accept Lightning payments whenever a customer is asking for it. Obviously, they will just receive the fiat on their end while Fold is taking care of the conversions and whatnot.

As for when they will implement Lightning, it has been done so immediately after releasing their official statement. Pretty cool. Lightning is the future and a great marketing feature too.

[Lucius]

I must say this is amazing implementation of lightning network protocol, which will allow users to pay with bitcoin in very simple way. It is very easy for merchants to accept such payments because they do not need to adjust anything on their side, and service is completely free for users.

Maybe this is not ideal way of spending bitcoins, it is just one more payment processor with LN - but it is good for US citizens to have such option, maybe they will use bitcoin more as payment now - especially if the IRS change fact that paying with crypto is something that is extra taxed.

I am not sure how this is working there, is there some automatic extra VAT on such transactions or user need to report all buying / selling at the end of each year?

[BitHodler]

I am not sure how this is working there, is there some automatic extra VAT on such transactions or user need to report all buying / selling at the end of each year?

For people in the US they have to manually report their trades, whatever amounts they spent in stores, etc. It's quite a hassle if you try to do things the 'right' way, but there is no way around it in that case.

Sure, you can always not declare anything, but you will need to make sure that the exchange taint on your coins isn't going to form an obstacle, which means that you will have to mix them.

I personally don't consider it worthwhile to spend coins with such rules in place. Too much hassle and even when you try to do it the 'right' way, one mistake might land you in pretty deep troubles with how aggressive the IRS is.

[stompix]

Not exactly sure what you're referring to, but the said merchants don't have to do anything. Fold will update it's infrastructure so that merchants will be able to accept Lightning payments whenever a customer is asking for it. Obviously, they will just receive the fiat on their end while Fold is taking care of the conversions and whatnot.

And how will this be done?

The protocol integrates with existing payments systems in a merchant’s POS, dealing “directly with prepaid access programs like gift cards, store credit, rails or other options merchants are used to accepting,” said Will Reeves, CEO of Fold.

To be clear there is no direct connection between Fold and any of these big merchants. Transactions show up in fiat on a company’s balance sheet as either gift card purchases or store credit, depending on how Fold integrates with a particular POS. This integration requires “no effort on the merchant’s side,” and does not require the installation of new hardware or software.

That POS must receive some information from the customer, how is that being one?

And is really confusing since:
a)  does not require the installation of new hardware or software
b) depending on how Fold integrates with a particular POS

I've never heard of integrating something in a piece of software without new software

As far as I can understand it works like a rechargeable gift card, so you depend on the company to actually accept those.

Anyway, nice seeing the LN in action, at least we're seeing some real implementation lately, not just projects that never materialize.

 
Edit:
Just run into this:
Is coffee.foldapp.com legit ?
So it's not a new idea, they are simply trying again with LN?

[1Referee]

I've never heard of integrating something in a piece of software without new software

The software updates happen over-the-air. It's similar to you setting up your smartphone or desktop computer to download and install updates automatically.

To pay all you do is ask the merchant to pay with Bitcoin Lightning and they forward you a QR code, and from there you scan it with your smartphone.

As far as I can understand it works like a rechargeable gift card, so you depend on the company to actually accept those.

I think you're mixing things up. The article mentions that whenever someone uses Lightning to pay for their stuff, the fiat that is forwarded to them by Fold is being put in the same category as giftcard/store credit purchases. I'm pretty sure Fold does this to gain a tax advantage.

[stompix]

I've never heard of integrating something in a piece of software without new software

The software updates happen over-the-air. It's similar to you setting up your smartphone or desktop computer to download and install updates automatically.

To pay all you do is ask the merchant to pay with Bitcoin Lightning and they forward you a QR code, and from there you scan it with your smartphone.

Sounds easy but it's not.
PoS machines are designed to do one thing and they lack the hardware to do something else, most of (if not all in my country) can\t issue qr codes and for certain would not be able to understand when the payment was done.
They can only read a card and without an upgrade, they won't be able to read anything else.

And remember:
"To be clear there is no direct connection between Fold and any of these big merchants."

As far as I can understand it works like a rechargeable gift card, so you depend on the company to actually accept those.

I think you're mixing things up. The article mentions that whenever someone uses Lightning to pay for their stuff, the fiat that is forwarded to them by Fold is being put in the same category as giftcard/store credit purchases. I'm pretty sure Fold does this to gain a tax advantage.

Nope, the guys from fold said this.

Transactions show up in fiat on a company’s balance sheet as either gift card purchases or store credit, depending on how Fold integrates with a particular POS.

For a transaction to show as a credit card or a gift card you can only pay via one of those unless you plan on hacking the visa network.

“Customers navigate to the Fold app, where they are presented with a list of available merchants. They then select the denomination and how much they want to spend,” said Reeves. Fold is non-custodial and allows clients to operate any wallet of their choosing. Once an invoice is populated, it “immediately displays a barcode or other payment method” generated via the merchant’s own gift card API.

There is no LN between the merchant and client (and man that would be awesome).

[Carlton Banks]

I personally don't consider it worthwhile to spend coins with such rules in place. Too much hassle and even when you try to do it the 'right' way, one mistake might land you in pretty deep troubles with how aggressive the IRS is.

if the IRS applied every rule in the (voluminous) tax code, there would be very little legal trade as a result. Give a reason why making small purchases with BTC should be any particular exception. I can give several reasons why such an exception wouldn't make sense


quite often, practical reality defines the law. and in practical reality, declaring every small purchase made with Bitcoin is impractical, and so the law will eventually bend to reality's will

[1Referee]

Nope, the guys from fold said this.

Transactions show up in fiat on a company’s balance sheet as either gift card purchases or store credit, depending on how Fold integrates with a particular POS.

For a transaction to show as a credit card or a gift card you can only pay via one of those unless you plan on hacking the visa network.

That's exactly what I said lol. You are mixing things up.

There is no option for the Lightning payments to show up on their balance sheet as Lightning payments, so they are being thrown in the same category as giftcard or store credit purchases.

[stompix]

~

That's exactly what I said lol. You are mixing things up.

There is no option for the Lightning payments to show up on their balance sheet as Lightning payments, so they are being thrown in the same category as giftcard or store credit purchases.

You still use the term of lighting payments as there is such lighting payment between the customer and the merchant ..and there is none  
This is what I'm trying to say.
It's categorized as a gift card because you pay with a gift card code.

[1Referee]

You still use the term of lighting payments as there is such lighting payment between the customer and the merchant ..and there is none  
This is what I'm trying to say.
It's categorized as a gift card because you pay with a gift card code.

My apologies. You are right.

I managed to gain access to the site through a US proxy because my region is blocked for some reason. So what happens here is that you top up the Fold app through Lightning, then for example buy a Starbucks voucher, and use these to actually pay for coffee over at Starbucks.

That's quite a disappointment on one side because there are no direct Lightning payments, but also good on the other side because these vouchers offer some sort of anonymity because the merchant doesn't know who paid for it, just that items are paid with a voucher.

[lucho1592]

Fold, a payments platform, is introducing a lightning network protocol that will allegedly enable users to shop in-store or online at several retailers, including Starbucks, Whole Foods, AMC, Home Depot, and Southwest Airlines.

A good platform, I hope the stores in which you can make such a purchase will soon be more

[BitHodler]

So what happens here is that you top up the Fold app through Lightning, then for example buy a Starbucks voucher, and use these to actually pay for coffee over at Starbucks.

I don't see much relevance in this. I can already buy gift cards through bitrefill with Bitcoin (main-chain + LN) and utilize them at Starbucks and orders of magnitude more merchants.

I have bought several food related gift cards and utilized them this year, and that without any problems. People are better off downloading the bitrefill app and start using it, and it works in a lot of countries.

[stompix]

~

~

No need for apologies, the press articles nowadays are written by some damn lazy monkeys.
I haven't seen lately some that pass the 50 lines mark and they all go the same way, copy some tweet or press release, copy a bit of company background, throw in some generic phrases and here we have the article.

As for the fold guys I really don't understand why they have blocked the page outside the US.
We're talking about bitcoin-related stuff almost every user can access the site via a VPN or a web proxy, what is there to hide or to block if they would manage to download the app, you still can't use it outside the US.
But yeah. it's a pity there isn't anything more behind it but right now I doubt anyone will be able to do it unless they signed a direct partnership with some store and I really don't see it happening soon.