Alternative to bip39 : memorizing your seed with the PEG system

[hatshepsut93]

Memorizing is only good as a last resort type of backup, a back up that you don't really rely on, but still keep because one extra back up won't hurt.

From my experience the mnemonic seeds from Electrum are very easy to memorize and keep in memory for long periods of time, but if you feel like your method works better for you, then go ahead. But I think most people will find the standard seeds easier.

[Charles-Tim]

Funny thing about a memory, I can still remember some stupid things and songs from my childhood, but I can't easily remember a phone number or someone's birthday.

Cognition during childhood is innately stronger and this declines with aging. To speak a language fluently, you would have been exposed to people speaking the language since your childhood. I still remembered one thing I did recited during my childhood up to this day bafter long period of time I did not recite it again. It was one when I was a child, I made it like 8 during my teen age, but I forgot the whole 7 completely while still remember the first I had known during my childhood.

There are long term memory and short term memory. There are numbers (although not long) I still remember because I have known it for long and put it to daily use, like my dad and mum phone numbers, I can never forget both. But there are still numbers that I thought I have learnt but I forgot because I did not put them into use. Not putting something into use will result into the information gradually fading away from someone's memory.

It is certain that seed phrase, seeds and many other things related to wallet including what is in the OP will not be in frequent used, this will finally and easily result to forgetfulness of it. That is why seed phrase or anything related can not be memorized which is perfectly wrong because the person can not turn it into morning, afternoon and night anthem for years, while not forgetting after not uising it as anthem again is not guaranteed, which can result to coin loss.

The only one outside of BIPs which is better but which I can not still recommend is Shamir secret sharing, which will convert seed phrase or anything encrypted to characters which I do not prefer unlike the seed phrase itself which is easy to write down and backup, while passphrase can be included but backup in different location to increase the backup security, while also multisig is a good way to go about this.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Your brain is much more susceptible to damage, and inaccuracies than other physical items.

This is the bottom line, really. It doesn't matter how good your system is or how strong your memory is, when everything from a stroke or an aneurysm or even a simple fall and blow to the head could render the whole thing useless. If I gave you a piece of paper and said "Use this to back up your seed phrase, but there is a not insignificant chance it will spontaneously combust with no warning whatsoever and you'll lose everything", you would of course refuse. Relying on your memory is really no different.

Nobody should, but we may have to in case the government seizes all our belongings.

You should have multiple off-site back ups anyway. Backing up everything in the same location as your main wallet (i.e. in your house) provides no protection against fire, flood, or other natural disasters. If the government or law enforcement raid your house, your off-site back ups will be safe provided you have kept their existence private. Use passphrased wallets, or even better multi-sig, for this set up for additional protection.

[hatshepsut93]

This is the bottom line, really. It doesn't matter how good your system is or how strong your memory is, when everything from a stroke or an aneurysm or even a simple fall and blow to the head could render the whole thing useless. If I gave you a piece of paper and said "Use this to back up your seed phrase, but there is a not insignificant chance it will spontaneously combust with no warning whatsoever and you'll lose everything", you would of course refuse. Relying on your memory is really no different.

And this is true not only for memorizing the seed, but also for some homebrew crypto schemes - someone can easily lock themselves out if they forget their algorithm; or with hiding the seed very deep, like for example burying it somewhere and then suffering from memory loss and not being able to find the location.

[o_e_l_e_o]

or with hiding the seed very deep, like for example burying it somewhere and then suffering from memory loss and not being able to find the location.

True, but there are a couple of distinct differences. Having to remember 38 completely arbitrary things like Michael Jordan or a llama in a specific order is a very different scenario to remembering "I hid my seed phrase in this location". You are far more likely to misremember one of 38 things, than you are to misremember a single thing. Further, simply trying to memorize a list is a very poor way of committing things to long term memory, whereas physically going to a location and performing a task (such as hiding your seed phrase there) is something which is much more easily remembered.

Also, it is far easier to say to your spouse or other family member "My seed phrase is hidden in location x" than it is to say "I need you to commit to memory this list of objects". If you have no single person you can trust with knowledge of your back ups, then create a multi-sig and split it between multiple people. All are preferable to relying on your memory.

[Pmalek]

I don't like systems where you are required to memorize important sequences that give you access to your funds. It works great while your brain functions the way it is supposed to. It becomes a nightmare when it no longer does. The standard and recommended way of storing seed is good enough. Make multiple paper or metal backups that are stored in separate locations and increase the security with a passphrase. The passphrase and the seed should also never be in the same place.

People get old, they get sick, you can have an accident and head trauma that causes permanent memory loss. The system won't help you if that happens. Besides, someone will one day probably inherit what you own. Do you think your system of numbers and pictures is easier for someone to decipher than a piece of paper or metal with the proper words written down from 1-12/24? If this works for you, congratulations. I hope that in the future your brain won't fail on you. But there are very few that don't. I wouldn't complicate things for my family though.

[LoyceV]

So for instance if the second number you had to memorize was say 53, then you can picture Elizabeth II riding a lama (because "lama" is 53 in the major system), or you can think of the sentence "the queen is lame".  I personally like using images of animals, but to each his own.

If this works for you, that's quite impressive. But to me, it seems like a lot more work and a lot more difficult than just converting the seed into 12 or even 24 words and memorizing those. Elizabeth could just as well be a mummy (33) or boss (90).
It gets even more confusing when you have more than one seed to remember.

The entropy size for BIP32 is between 16 and 64 bytes and I believe the seed that bitcoin core uses is actually 256 bits which means if you convert it with your scheme you should end up with at least 70 values.

Each number has 2 decimal digits, that's how it ends up at 38.

Our memory as humans is absolutely awful
~
this shouldn't be the only way that you are remembering your private key

Years ago, I hid a paper wallet somewhere in the house before going on vacation, and despite searching everywhere, I never found it back. But indeed it wasn't my only storage method, so I didn't lose anything. I can remember some things for years without problems, while instantly forgetting some very obvious other things.

we may have to in case the government seizes all our belongings.

If that's your fear, I suggest to keep an encrypted backup on another location. Or hide it somewhere, it can be very small and very difficult to find for someone who doesn't know what they're looking for.

[grondilu]

So for instance if the second number you had to memorize was say 53, then you can picture Elizabeth II riding a lama (because "lama" is 53 in the major system), or you can think of the sentence "the queen is lame".  I personally like using images of animals, but to each his own.

Elizabeth could just as well be a mummy (33) or boss (90).

"Elizabeth" has four consonants : LZBT, which is 5091.  There's no way I would confuse her with a number between 0 and 99.

Elizabeth II represents 2 for me because the number 2 is literally in her title.

I'm not sure you understood my method, so again : the concepts in the recall table do not use the major system.  Only the numbers they are pegged to, do.  If the n-th number in my list is x, I turn x into a word with the major system and I create a mental association of that word with the n-th entry in my recall table.

Let's say I want to memorize the first few decimals of pi : 31 41 59 26.  I must associate :

* 31 to Attila.   I can imagine him trying to speak and failing, because he is mute.  Or I can think of him being a insane killer, so he is mad.
* 41 to Elizabeth II.  I can imagine her screaming because she just saw a huge rat.  I need to stress that it is huge because I need to remember that it is not a mouse, as that would be 30.
* 59 to the Troyan war.  I can imagine Helen of Troy biting her lip when seeing Paris.
* 26 to Catherine Deneuve.  I can imagine her reading Nietsche's "Thus spoke Zarathustra".

etc.

Try my method to memorize 40 decimals of pi, or more.  I bet it will work.

It gets even more confusing when you have more than one seed to remember.

You probably don't have many seeds to remember but you're right, it's probably a bad idea to use this method to memorize several seeds.

[hatshepsut93]

True, but there are a couple of distinct differences. Having to remember 38 completely arbitrary things like Michael Jordan or a llama in a specific order is a very different scenario to remembering "I hid my seed phrase in this location". You are far more likely to misremember one of 38 things, than you are to misremember a single thing. Further, simply trying to memorize a list is a very poor way of committing things to long term memory, whereas physically going to a location and performing a task (such as hiding your seed phrase there) is something which is much more easily remembered.

Also, it is far easier to say to your spouse or other family member "My seed phrase is hidden in location x" than it is to say "I need you to commit to memory this list of objects". If you have no single person you can trust with knowledge of your back ups, then create a multi-sig and split it between multiple people. All are preferable to relying on your memory.

I completely agree that forgetting when you placed your wallet is not as likely as forgetting the seed, but still it's something I want to warn people about. It's very important to have multiple independent backups to not rely on a single backup, because it will prevent a lot of potential problems like this one.