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Author Topic: Could science fiction based carbon coins save our planet  (Read 156 times)
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March 04, 2021, 10:39:35 PM
Last edit: March 04, 2021, 10:53:27 PM by Hydrogen
 #1

Quote
The new currency in the novel Ministry for the Future has real-world supporters

By now we’re probably all familiar with the concept of carbon taxes. The idea is pretty simple: if we want less carbon to go into the atmosphere, we have to provide economic incentives to change behavior. Most mainstream economic proposals to tackle climate change are essentially ways of attaching a cost to carbon—one that approximates the toll each ton takes on the Earth.

But an idea literally straight out of a science fiction novel—though based on real research—might offer an even better incentive.

In his recent science fiction novel Ministry for the Future, Kim Stanley Robinson details a piece to the carbon equation that might be missing: a reward for doing the right thing. In the book, the leader of an international agency tasked with meeting the Paris Agreement goals works to persuade officials at central banks to support a new currency called the carbon coin.

The measure ultimately proves to be a pivotal force for moving the globe onto a path of reducing emissions. Each coin, a trackable digital currency, is produced when a ton of carbon is eliminated from the atmosphere—when, for example, oil companies leave their reserves in the ground, forests are re-established, or machines filter carbon from the air.

Though it may seem incongruous with our current economy, the carbon coin idea draws from real proposals aimed at creating a reward for reducing the risks of climate change. Some economists believe it could be an opportunity to supercharge efforts to save the planet in ways not possible with other more-accepted tools.

Robinson’s inspiration for the carbon coin draws from work by Delton Chen, a civil engineer and founder of the Global Carbon Reward Initiative. Chen’s policy proposal, the Global Carbon Reward, is a digital currency based on controlling carbon emissions. He envisions that an international body would create the coins, verifying that those vying for the currency are achieving the carbon reductions they claim. Chen says it would be kind of like a gold standard in that it’s backed by a physical reality—carbon dioxide reductions. The differences are that the currency would be entirely digital, and that its value would grow at a guaranteed rate over time.

Chen’s proposal for the Global Carbon Reward focuses on three main areas: the energy sector, businesses generally, and carbon dioxide removal. Each area has its own calculation for how people and corporations would be eligible to earn the coins, focused on how to provide a targeted reward for reducing or removing carbon emissions.

The general idea has popped up around the world under a few names. In Brazil, Alfredo Sirkis, the late executive director of think tank Centro Brasil no Clima, argued for the need for a policy of “positive pricing of carbon reduction.”

One way to think about the idea is a sort of targeted quantitative easing, which is when central banks, like the United States’ Federal Reserve, buy government bonds and inject new money into the economy, which lowers interest rates and stimulates borrowing and investment. It already happens as an emergency measure to avert financial devastation, such as in the 2008 economic crisis and more recently in 2020. Étienne Espagne, an economist at Agence Française de Développement, says that if newly-minted money was targeted at investing in low-carbon assets, it could make for an important climate incentive.

Proponents argue that a carbon coin system provides incentives in a way that’s simply not possible with taxes and other fee-based mechanisms. If you just use taxes, Espagne says that you run the risk of hurting the economy without offering much of an alternative to fossil fuel-intensive activities. He believes that a positive carbon reward would be a complement to taxes. A dual system of fees and incentives could both accelerate investment into lower carbon energy, infrastructure, and supply chains while making polluting activities less and less lucrative.

A carbon currency can also help switch the investment strategies of the large financial institutions currently funding fossil fuels. Chen’s proposed Global Carbon Reward would be a stable investment, likely attractive to retirement funds. If major pension funds and commercial banks shifted their investments, that would further weaken the fossil fuel industry. “Ten percent return with low risk is a good deal,” he says. “Private traders and pension funds will start buying the currency.”

From a big picture standpoint, carbon coins would address an aspect of economic decision-making that taxes currently don’t. Chen says it’s similar to getting car insurance. While your route from A to B is likely whichever has the shortest ETA on Google Maps, your decision to get car insurance isn’t really based on efficiency. Rather, it’s based on risk—the probability of an accident. A carbon currency would similarly be a sort of insurance against climate change—with every coin issued, that risk is lowered.

It’s not totally out of the purview of central banks to do something like this, Espagne says. A central bank’s job is largely to ensure that the financial system is stable. And climate change-fueled disasters can pose a risk to that stability. “And because of this systemic [climate change] risk in the financial system … you have a justification for a new role for central banks,” he says.

That doesn’t mean it’s an uncontroversial idea. For one, a new currency system is a unique proposal in and of itself. For another, proponents are essentially asking banks to support certain industries in favor of others—something finance officials might find distasteful. “In monetary policy central banks are formulating all of their policies on being market neutral, at least in theory,” Chen says. “They claim that they don’t want to distort the market by preferentially supporting one industry over another.”

In the future, Chen hopes to set up a demonstration of the currency with a willing government and central bank that will issue the digital coins. The demo would involve a number of climate mitigation projects and ideally serve as a proof of concept for carbon reduction-based currency. “When the world sees this, I think there will be a realization that we are making life hard for ourselves by relying too heavily on taxes and cap and trade and punitive measures,” he says. “We need this green financial stimulus that sends a strong market signal for the deep transition of the world economy.”

https://www.popsci.com/story/environment/carbon-coin-real/


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The basic concept of carbon coins proposed here are digital coins awarded to businesses, states and non profits via tons of carbon they prevent from being emitted into the atmosphere.

USA shut down 50+ coal power plants 2016 - 2020 which could make them eligible to receive carbon coins. Tesla, EV manufacturers, windmill and solar panel companies might also be eligible to receive carbon coins under this format.

Details under the proposal are left open ended. They could opt for a limited supply deflationary format like bitcoin. Or a more flexible arbitrary supply like ethereum. The implementation would probably be the most key aspect as to how effective/ineffective proposals like this are.

That said, is it possible a crypto currency equivalent could be in the works?

Could this concept work to improve environmental policy? What do people think?   Smiley
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March 05, 2021, 05:48:43 AM
 #2

CO2 emissions is on the rise and our planet is in danger. Carbon coins could just be the answer. The entire concept to issue out carbon coin incentives to industries and individuals to cut down their carbon emission is really nice, it will really encourage mainstream effort to curb the damges already been caused by carbon.

Innovations like this willl drive and force industries and individuals at large to seek and adopt clean and renewable energy. We really need this, the effects of a depleted ozone layer due to emissions is already visible to all in one way or the other and if not nipped in the bud, will be futuristically detrimental.

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March 05, 2021, 06:14:45 AM
 #3

It is a lovely idea but what is difference of carbon coins to the current carbon incentives that companies receive when they reduce their carbon emission? I wouldn't really say that it will save the planet because if the idea was to become a reality, it would be only a small percentage that we are going to dent because there are other industries that causes the pollution and the emissions of GHG(Greenhouse Gases), not to mention that not every country will be easy to persuade to follow these guidelines especially the superpower nations like China and Russia.

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March 05, 2021, 06:35:16 AM
 #4

Sounds like a great idea,but the execution will be most likely bad.
Creating a centralized shitcoin with big supply(which means low value) can't solve the problem.
What if some companies try to fake their carbon emissions,just for the sake of getting such carbon coins for free?Such system will be exploited pretty easily.On the other hand,the level of control and bureaucracy that would be required to prevent scams will make the system really expensive.

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March 05, 2021, 09:26:36 AM
 #5

That said, is it possible a crypto currency equivalent could be in the works?

Could this concept work to improve environmental policy? What do people think?   Smiley

No, sorry.
I've read only parts of the text (it's big...), but no, imho this won't work.

With the current system, the ones doing good already have their incentive - they can sell those carbon "shares" to the wrongdoers. And this makes the polluting businesses have to pay for their actions.
All the businesses care about is money. And imho the only way way to make them do good is to increase - year after year - the "toll" they have to pay for their wrong doing.
If you only reward the "good" businesses, that's nothing. The bad businesses may earn more continuing to pollute than by improving their habits (i.e. upgrade their technology).

So there's a working system and the only thing that can be made to improve it is to continuously increase the financial burden for the polluters. I see it as an opposite of your proposal (which gives more rewards to the good).

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May 11, 2021, 02:04:01 PM
 #6

Sounds like a great idea,but the execution will be most likely bad.
Creating a centralized shitcoin with big supply(which means low value) can't solve the problem.
What if some companies try to fake their carbon emissions,just for the sake of getting such carbon coins for free?Such system will be exploited pretty easily.On the other hand,the level of control and bureaucracy that would be required to prevent scams will make the system really expensive.
As far as I know, each state has quotas for hydrocarbon emissions and if it emits less of them into the atmosphere, then it receives currency from the relevant international organizations. A state can also sell its emission quota or part of it to another state. Thus, there is a stimulation of lower emissions of harmful gases into the atmosphere. I do not see any particular need to implement here as a payment for such savings with cryptocurrency, however, I do not mind either. This will depend on the wishes of the states themselves.

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May 11, 2021, 11:05:21 PM
 #7

Over the last 2,000 years 50% to 80% of the world's natural forests were cut down and replaced with concrete heat islands or grass. This historical trend greatly depleted the eco systems ability to absorb and store carbon emissions.

The best case scenario for re balancing the greenhouse effect is to pump and desalinate rising sea levels into middle eastern deserts to terra form the region and vastly increase the natural trend for acres of forest land to absorb thousands of tons of carbon.

I like the idea of issuing carbon coins -- not to punish carbon emissions as carbon taxes do but rather incentivize and reward trends which address climate change. Throwing money at wind or solar farms can fund the development of additional solar and wind farms in the future.

Issuing carbon coins subsidizes those green energy sectors the way that fossil fuel based energy has been subsidized for decades.

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May 12, 2021, 04:35:34 AM
 #8

Over the last 2,000 years 50% to 80% of the world's natural forests were cut down and replaced with concrete heat islands or grass. This historical trend greatly depleted the eco systems ability to absorb and store carbon emissions.

The best case scenario for re balancing the greenhouse effect is to pump and desalinate rising sea levels into middle eastern deserts to terra form the region and vastly increase the natural trend for acres of forest land to absorb thousands of tons of carbon.

I like the idea of issuing carbon coins -- not to punish carbon emissions as carbon taxes do but rather incentivize and reward trends which address climate change. Throwing money at wind or solar farms can fund the development of additional solar and wind farms in the future.

Issuing carbon coins subsidizes those green energy sectors the way that fossil fuel based energy has been subsidized for decades.


Terraforming takes years or decades if I recall. The real problem besides the cutting of the forests is that we still rely on fossil fuels in terms of energy sources. I don't think that putting it all in on renewable resources is our best bet because when a calamity strikes, these renewable resources aren't reliable. We need to focus on energy storage, innovation of nuclear power, space mining and seasteading.
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May 12, 2021, 04:41:22 PM
 #9

Nuclear energy is used as a source of electricity generation it is possible to produce huge amounts of energy from a small nuclear power plant. The amount of heat that is generated in a nuclear fission or fusion process is used to evaporate water in a nuclear power plant the heated steam rotates the turbine and as the turbine rotates the connected generator also starts rotating and as a result electricity can be generated as complex and costly as this system is any kind of carelessness can seriously pollute the environment. Many countries follow this and fossil fuel based energy is needed to save the planet from carbon coins.
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May 12, 2021, 05:03:23 PM
 #10

What would a carbon coin do other than adding more pollution and useless jobs?

If China says f y and your carbon coin we won't implement it it's useless.
If a coal plant or a factory is faking the numbers it will again be useless as it will simply be a database that is not connected to reality, there will be people inserting numbers there, people who can play with those numbers how they want.

Over the last 2,000 years 50% to 80% of the world's natural forests were cut down and replaced with concrete heat islands or grass.

Good, now grab a gun and point it at all those people who live in those concrete islands and telll them if they don't turn their house in a pasture you're going to shot them. I keep hearing all the facts about how the world was supposed to be one hundred years ago, fifty years ago, how about all those people that regret it so much start living like the people then? Oh, and no more bitcoin either.
Everyone likes preaching but the moment you tell them they have to pay 5% more on electricity to be complete green or 10% on meat because is now eco-bovine friendly they start crying and shouting that the government is robbing theme

The best case scenario for re balancing the greenhouse effect is to pump and desalinate rising sea levels into middle eastern deserts to terra form the region and vastly increase the natural trend for acres of forest land to absorb thousands of tons of carbon.

Desalinate water, pump it in the most arid zones on the earth where evaporation rates are insane to store some extra carbon...
Have you considered how much energy you're going to spend on pumping water to keep trees alive in those areas?

Rather than trying to keep some trees alive, that will also have a very slow growth rate and thus carbon entrapment rates you're better planting tree in the tropics where they grow far faster and simply cut them when they have matured, bury them and plant new trees, this is true carbon entrapment. If you simply plant a forest and you don't remove dead trees from it they will rot and release back into the air all the carbon they've grown from. Besides, it's a natural way, trees do that with their roots.

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May 13, 2021, 12:18:10 PM
 #11

Nuclear energy is used as a source of electricity generation it is possible to produce huge amounts of energy from a small nuclear power plant. The amount of heat that is generated in a nuclear fission or fusion process is used to evaporate water in a nuclear power plant the heated steam rotates the turbine and as the turbine rotates the connected generator also starts rotating and as a result electricity can be generated as complex and costly as this system is any kind of carelessness can seriously pollute the environment. Many countries follow this and fossil fuel based energy is needed to save the planet from carbon coins.
The problem with this one is that there aren't any new innovation in nuclear power plants and what we currently use are the old models that are dangerous although at extreme neglect only. Not to mention that it is expensive to create a waste disposal site for the nuclear waste since it has to be safe from earthquake for hundreds of thousands of years, the only way for us to be able to go for nuclear is that we innovate on the technology and waste disposal.

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May 13, 2021, 03:26:30 PM
 #12

A sick patient dying of diseases related to unhealthy lifestyle would need to completely abandon the unhealthy lifestyle rather than prefering to keep treating the diseases and living life the way he/she wants.

The World as a patient dying of things related to modern lifestyle and habit always wish it can continue living the way it wants without consequences. The solutions offer by green energy proponents is like sick patient choosing synthetic vitamins, minerals and drugs rather than the natural ones available for free.
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May 13, 2021, 03:28:26 PM
 #13

You don't seem to give up on the idea that every problem in the world should be solved by inventing a new coin/token - and it's obvious that a lot of people are thinking in that direction, considering that we have almost 10,000 coins (listed on CMC) of which 99.99% serve no purpose. The planet will not be saved by any cryptocurrency, the problem is much more complex and requires the cooperation of the whole world in making difficult decisions - but good luck with that, because politicians cannot agree on some much simpler things.

Perhaps a new cryptocurrency could be designed to fund innovative and new living space alternatives in the country. Which would decrease demand for living space and result in more affordable markets?

Cryptocurrencies being known for innvation and flexibility, could this issue be addressed by rolling out a new crypto token designed to fight global hunger?

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May 13, 2021, 03:55:11 PM
 #14

Seems like a way for private and public institutions to improve their image. Though honestly, giving a number, and a solid one at that, in terms of reputation based on the amount of environmental activity a company/group/organization did seems like a bad thing. Awards are good, they're quite general imo and is a bulk of a number that isn't really set, so it doesn't really give that description that a group is better than the other. Not to mention that it isn't possible to sell it to another group (assuming the carbon coins could).

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Twentyonepaylots
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May 16, 2021, 09:22:38 AM
 #15

That is actually a good concept that will definitely help promote this big repeat offenders to double-down on their efforts to cut down in their carbon emissions. But I believe the best thing we can do is promoting this while also conducting other known efforts to save this planet. Perhaps plant more trees, proper waste disposal to name a few. We can't just expect them to do the heavy lifting for us. We gotta do it altogether or we'll die off along with this planet.
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May 16, 2021, 08:45:34 PM
 #16

I am sure that reward system for dropping carbon would be great, but how do you really pay that? Say that you give people carbon coin, which you created out of nothing and gave it to people who did all those things, how are they profiting from them? Will they sell it? Or better yet who will buy it?

I feel like maybe carbon coin could be used for a trade, where a company that helps the world earns it, and a company that hurts the world, a coal mine, an oil company, stuff like that would have to buy and pay that to continue down the business, like a carbon tax basically but more volatile. All of which could be used very terribly if you let CEO's dictate since they would do everything to save a buck. Just do a HUGE carbon tax, the more a company hurts the world the more you punish them with tax, which means they will either stop or they will pay countless billions.

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