Proposal for 'hybrid' auctions for graded Casascius brass 1 & 0.5

[thoughtfan]

I'd be interested in your thoughts on the following way of conducting an auction on here in the next week or so for two brass Cas coins whereas, in parallel, I would also accepting bids for them on 4k.com where they've been "NFT'd" (the .5 is graded at MS64).

This is one of them:


Both coins are currently in secure storage in the US by 4k.com who have issued 'barer-tokens' (ERC1155 NFTs) for them. These auctions may therefore also be thought of as auctions for the physical-coin-backed NFTs.

However, I want the auction also to be open to the BTC-only community hence my proposal to have an auction thread here whereby anyone may place their bids here and 4k can be thought of merely as an escrow holder of the coins (with the 1% NFT redemption charge thought of as an escrow charge).

The idea is that I (or others) will replicate on the bct auction thread any bids that are made as 'offers' on 4k which may then be out-bid by people here not wanting to wrap their BTC as ETH tokens.

I propose in the event of there being two identical 'winning' bids, one here and one on 4k, that I will declare the one on 4k to have won because of the simplicity, low-risk and instant means by which wBTC may be exchanged for the NFT.

Where there is one clear winning bid on here (not matched on 4k) we can find a means to suit both parties (by use of escrow etc. at the buyer's expense) to transfer ownership and, if required, to take custody of the physical coin (to 'redeem' the NFT).

Does that sound to you like something that could work? Does it sound fair? Do you see potential pitfalls to this plan?

 

[MoparMiningLLC]

Me personally I would never bid on something I didnt physically receive. I wouldnt want to own anything that someone else gets to keep “for” me.

[thoughtfan]

Me personally I would never bid on something I didnt physically receive. I wouldnt want to own anything that someone else gets to keep “for” me.

Thank you for this. It is to address such concerns / considerations that I created this thread in advance of the auctions.

To clarify, the option to pay BTC and to receive the physical coin will for these auctions be the same as it is for any other auction here; it is only that there are additional options for anyone for whom the fact it is NFT'd makes it an attractive proposition.

For people, such as yourself, who want no involvement with such NFTs, the only differences I can think of between this and any other bitcointalk auction are:

• The physical coin is already in 'escrow' from which it could be delivered to the auction winner upon payment (maybe to one of the respected bct members who offer escrow);
• Some bidders may be bidding elsewhere whose bids will need to be manually added to the auction thread;
• Should there be identical 'winning bids' here and on 4k, the 'winner' on 4k (who has already committed the wBTC funds) will be the actual winner;
• The fee for the 'item escrow' (1% 4k redemption fee) in addition to any escrow fees relating to payment will need to be taken into account when determining bid amounts.

Anyone who wants to may bid actual BTC and in the event of winning, may pay actual BTC and receive the actual physical coin without having had any interaction with token tech (nor any non-BTC technologies) and with it making no difference that the coin was for a short time represented by an ETH-based NFT.

On the other hand, anyone who would prefer to utilise / leverage ETH's token technology in the exchange process and even explore the options of trading the NFT or simply leaving it with 4k's secure storage as opposed to their own, may do so. (and there are hybrid options too for the exchange process with or without additional escrow to pay BTC and to receive the NFT).

Again, thank you, MoparMiningLLC for raising this. I hope the above clarification is helpful to you and to any others who were having similar thoughts. As a matter of interest, given what I've added in this post, would the fact I've NFT'd it still stop you from participating in these auctions?

[MoparMiningLLC]

If the physical can be delivered upon winning then yes, I would bid - provided it was something I wanted or could afford.

The aspect I am not keen on is bidding/winning and then allowing someone else to "hodl" my item. Just like a private key, if you don't hodl it yourself, then it is not truly yours.

[ChiBitCTy]

I personally don't like this proposal.  It's one thing to list something for sale like on 4k or ebay and here (all at once), but when it comes down to an auction, only one site should be utilized.  There are too many issues that could arise.  Also, why auction it on 4K where they are surely to have less eyes viewing it than here, charging you 1% (which I don't see this fee even being mentioned on the site) as well as your ownership lies within some silly NFT.  They have stated they have insurance protection..has that been shown to you? Their website has no TOS which is a huge issue/red flag.  The way that site is currently constructed I would not send anything to them.  

[thoughtfan]

If the physical can be delivered upon winning then yes, I would bid - provided it was something I wanted or could afford.

The aspect I am not keen on is bidding/winning and then allowing someone else to "hodl" my item. Just like a private key, if you don't hodl it yourself, then it is not truly yours.

Great, Thanks for confirming. That's good to know.

As for NYKNYC, strictly speaking (and practically speaking too, historically, wrt some negligent / crooked physical coin issuers), the private keys on the coins aren't technically yours because they weren't created on your off-line device using your own source of entropy - although it does need to be acknowledged in the case of Cas coins, and Mike Caldwell's competence and integrity, it's likely the closest we'll get to certainty in that regard.

But you're also right that handing the physical coins to a third party to securely store and entrusting them to honour the token they've issued for it is one step further still from true self-custody. And though the key personnel at 4k (who can retrieve the physical items) are respected and have been around a long time (including on here), they don't have the name and reputation of our most respected regular escrow folks here. Then again, neither have the owners of safety deposit box companies to whom many entrust valuables such as physical crypto. And it isn't even that holding physical coins at home doesn't come with its own risks. People choose what works best for their particular circumstances and propensity and judgement of relative risks.

The big plus for me as a seller is that if the buyer is up for accepting the NFT, we've eliminated some risks wrt transportation (or buyer falsely claiming an item was lost in transit etc.) and some days of sweating with coin sent trans-continental with payment in escrow and no certainty it will ever make that last leg to my wallet! And if the buyer is happy to use wBTC, they too have the benefit of an instant and trustless exchange cutting out the need for payment escrow (and in the event of being 'joint winners', will take the prize).

[thoughtfan]

I personally don't like this proposal.  It's one thing to list something for sale like on 4k or ebay and here (all at once), but when it comes down to an auction, only one site should be utilized.  There are too many issues that could arise.

Thank you too, ChiBitCTy for chiming in. It is these 'too many issues that could arise' that I would like to consider and, if possible mitigate for (or come up with another plan) and is the reason for this thread. I'd greatly appreciate your sharing what they may be.

Also, why auction it on 4K where they are surely to have less eyes viewing it than here.  

To be clear, 4k has no auction feature, only an offer feature so I don't have the option of auctioning it there. What there is there is the feature whereby anyone with the funds in a linked wallet (e.g. a offline-signing-device-secured, linked Metamask wallet) may at any time put in an offer. In the event that someone on 4k has the winning bid, all I have to do is accept the offer and the exchange is done.

...charging you 1% (which I don't see this fee even being mentioned on the site)...   

There is a 1% charge I would happily pay in the event that it was someone paying me wBTC via the 4k listing* (by smart contract in such a way that 4k are not involved in the transaction) and there is a 1% charge for anyone choosing to redeem the NFT for the coin.

...some silly NFT...  

I get that you're not impressed with the whole NFT thing - which is why I wanted to be absolutely clear as per my prior repsonses, that there is no need for any BTC-only people who are attracted to the physical coins themselves, to involve themselves with that side of it including not having to trust 4k because the NFT could be redeemed for delivery to the winner's address.

They have stated they have insurance protection..has that been shown to you? Their website has no TOS which is a huge issue/red flag.  The way that site is currently constructed I would not send anything to them.  

I have had sufficient correspondence with them (and have followed through with other due diligence) to be happy to trust 4k myself with my coins. I am not asking anyone else to.

* this charge does not apply in the event that I transfer custody of the NFT independently of the 4k listing platform.

[MoparMiningLLC]

true about the keys but if I have the coin in my possession, then I have the only copy of the key in my possession - that is if you trust the creator.  Leaving them at 4k means you also have to trust 4k. I rather only have ot trust one entity - the creator. Not some other company that can just disappear with said coins.

In the end, you have to have a level of trust, and for any collectible that I would hodl and not peel, it would be because I trust that creator. I have zero trust in 4k. I have never heard of nor know any of the people involved in 4k.

[thoughtfan]

true about the keys but if I have the coin in my possession, then I have the only copy of the key in my possession - that is if you trust the creator.  Leaving them at 4k means you also have to trust 4k. I rather only have ot trust one entity - the creator. Not some other company that can just disappear with said coins.

In the end, you have to have a level of trust, and for any collectible that I would hodl and not peel, it would be because I trust that creator. I have zero trust in 4k. I have never heard of nor know any of the people involved in 4k.

I can't argue with that.

It's also worth noting, however, that there's also a difference between having someone or an entity holding something for you long-term v. a third party holding a physical item for the duration of a sales process and / or transaction. In the former, yes, you're weighing it v. holding yourself or in your own security deposit box.

In the case of the coins being held for the duration of a sale, by signing a message with the same key that has control of the NFT, I will be able to prove the coins I'm auctioning are mine. And for anyone whose happy with high-value tokens (wBTC and NFTs), as a means of being able to easily swap the two is something that might be an attractive option - and, if not wanting to trust the third party in the long term (or simply in order to hold the physical item in their own hand), they may follow through with redemption.

Each to their own - and my intention here is to accommodate all (other than those who would prefer to pay by fiat  )

[thoughtfan]

Quick update:

Thank you all for your feedback (on here and by PM).

It is clear to me that there is significant push-back from this community to what I was proposing. I'll therefore go back to the drawing board and revert for selling on here to standard bct auctions.

All the best for now.