Sending BTC To Gambling Site Time Range Question?

[jerry0]

So many times previously a while back, i would withdraw btc from a gambling site and copy and paste the btc receiving address generated by the nano ledger s for the btc to receive.  After i receive the btc, sometimes i sent around that amount of btc to another gambling site.  Has been a while since i done that.  Now when i choose to deposit btc on a gambling site, the site generates a btc address for me to send btc to.  What i did recall is when they do this, there is generally a message below it that says this btc address is good up to say the next 15 minutes or 30 minutes?  That is normal right?  But if you ever want to send btc to say coinbase, well whatever btc address coinbase generates for you, you can pretty much send it anytime correct since that is your btc coinbase address?



So back then when i was ready to send btc to the gambling site after receiving btc from another gambling site, it could be the same day or next day or few days later, i would see that 15 minute countdown or something like that.  So i would then copy and paste that btc sending address on ledger live with my nano ledger s.  Now since i have not sent btc from my nano ledger s to a gambling site in a while, what i don't recall is what sat fee did i use before i sent the transaction.  People say look at mempool to see the current low, medium and high fees.  Back then i remember i used a low fee but don't recall if i ever used like one sat ever.  However, i do recall back when i sent btc from nano ledger s or even electrum from back then to gambling sites, i would send with a low or very low fee.  Now even if you send with a low fee from the nano ledger s, the transaction will immediately show up in the blockchain transaction history correct?  Because when it says you have 15 minutes to send btc to this address, if you send it within say even a minute before  it expires, it shows up on blockchain and the transaction will go through no matter what correct?  But it might take lot of time and confirmations? 



Recall there were sometimes when the gambling site took hours to credit my account but most of the time, it was no more than an hour max.  So as long as you click send and the transaction shows approved on the nano ledger s, then you don't need to be concerned right?  Believe once i sent the btc to gambling site, that 5 minute timer stopped because it recognized the transaction?  Don't remember if it did or went to zero.  Anyone know?  But once you send the btc from nano ledger to gambling site, it immediately shows up in latest operation transactions right?  So you just wait for enough confirmations and then the gambling site credits your account?  Recall contacting the gambling sites a while back how long they take and they would tell me we see the transaction but just waiting for confirmations before account get credit... thats how it works right?




Now what would happen if you were to send the btc to that btc address after that 15 minutes?  Say you saw you had  15 minutes to send it but then you took too long and sent it after the  15 minutes has went by? Recalled several times i would be ready to do a transaction and the 15 minute timer would show and then i decide to not do the transaction and timer goes to 0.  The next time i try to deposit btc into the gambling site, it would again generate me another btc sending address and say i have 15 minutes.  So what happens if you send it after that 15 minutes?  Does the transaction get rejected?  What shows up on the nano ledger s when you do it?  But is it possible it still goes through?  Does the amount get deducted from your ledger live balance?  Does it even show up as a transaction on latest operations?  But is this even considered your btc sending address linked to your gambling account similar to like how you get a btc sending address to coinbase... but those btc sending address is always in your coinbase account?  Because whenever i would deposit btc in that same gambling site, i believe the btc address they want me to send to is always a different btc address? 



Asking this because i am going to withdraw btc from a gambling site to nano ledger s, and once i receive the btc, i will want to send around that btc amount or less to another gambling site with my nano ledger s and just want to know how much sat fees should i set it.  So how much sat fee to put on ledger live before sending?  And you need to make sure you do the transaction quick and don't try to do it when the timer is like few minutes left right?  Because of that happens, just wait for timer to expire and try depositing later when you go to cashier in that gambling site and then generate a new btc deposit address?

[NeuroticFish]

First, please remove the duplicate post. And stop spamming. (Edit: mods have removed the duplicate)

What i did recall is when they do this, there is generally a message below it that says this btc address is good up to say the next 15 minutes or 30 minutes?  That is normal right?  But if you ever want to send btc to say coinbase, well whatever btc address coinbase generates for you, you can pretty much send it anytime correct since that is your btc coinbase address?

It's a setting in order to optimize resources (computers). Some software is "watching" that address automatically for a rather short period of time (some gambling sites or payment processors), some will watch it for pretty much forever (exchanges), some .. somewhere in between.
Usually those watching for short period of time try to force you send fast in order to ensure the USD price of what you've sent doesn't change much.
The company will still have that address even in days or years in their wallet, and they can verify that you've sent funds outside the designated period, but you'll have to ask the support, because the checking will most probably made manually (not automatic, like when you send as requested).

Now since i have not sent btc from my nano ledger s to a gambling site in a while, what i don't recall is what sat fee did i use before i sent the transaction.

After so long you still don't understand that whatever fee you've used in another day doesn't matter at all since mempool may or may not be similarly busy in both moments?!!!?

Now even if you send with a low fee from the nano ledger s, the transaction will immediately show up in the blockchain transaction history correct?  Because when it says you have 15 minutes to send btc to this address, if you send it within say even a minute before  it expires, it shows up on blockchain and the transaction will go through no matter what correct?  But it might take lot of time and confirmations?  

The platforms I've used only needed to see the transaction in mempool during those 15-20 minutes, but I didn't use such platforms much. They also preferred transactions have no RBF for this work well.
And yes, afterwards it may take a lot to get confirmed, depending on the fee. And again it depends on the platform how/when will they credit your transaction.

thats how it works right?

So you want us tell you how whatever gambling site handles internally the deposits? And you don't mention the site?
How should we know?!

Now what would happen if you were to send the btc to that btc address after that 15 minutes?

After that happens to you, then you'll have to ask the support help you out.
The transaction you've sent cannot be rejected by the recipient wallet. A tx returns to you only if it's not mined for very long (2 weeks or more), which is not the case nowadays.

Asking this because i am going to withdraw btc from a gambling site to nano ledger s, and once i receive the btc, i will want to send around that btc amount or less to another gambling site with my nano ledger s and just want to know how much sat fees should i set it.  So how much sat fee to put on ledger live before sending?  And you need to make sure you do the transaction quick and don't try to do it when the timer is like few minutes left right?  Because of that happens, just wait for timer to expire and try depositing later when you go to cashier in that gambling site and then generate a new btc deposit address?

I recommend you do the sending in week-end and watch on mempool.space what are the normal fees. And if you want to be super sure, use the high prio fee (which in w/e should also be 2 sat/vbyte).

[jerry0]

Talking about gambling sites like sportsbetting sites.  Example like bookmaker and everygame and sites like that.  When you go and choose bitcoin deposit, it takes a short while for the page to generate a btc address for you to send the btc to.  Some sites would show on that page you have 15 or 30 minutes to send to this btc address with a timer going down.  Also i believe they would say the btc rate is locked at this rate for the next 15 or 30 minutes or so.  Does that make sense?



So say normally when you send the btc to that site with in minutes, the timer would stop because i believe it recognizes the btc has been sent even though there are no confirmations yet?  But other times i believe timer would still go straight to 0 even after you sent it.  But the gambling site would then credit the USD amount to your sportsbetting account.  Does that make sense?  Also im talking about sportsbooks where you send btc to them and they credit you with fiat.  So say you want to deposit 500 dollars on the site, it then generates a btc address for you to send to and then show send exactly 0.xxxxxx btc to that address. 



So i want to confirm... because i haven't send btc to gambling sites in a long time and sort of forgot the process... but it doesn't matter how much fees you use to send with you nano ledgers correct?  Could use the minimum 1 sat fee and that is fine?  But would take longer for confirmations so takes longer for them to credit your account with usd balance?  Recall had these sites take anywhere from 15 minutes to many hours to
credit my account years ago.  But i wanted to know what would exactly happen if you send btc from nano ledger to the btc address they ask you to send... after that 15 or 30 minutes range they ask you to send by.

[NeuroticFish]

Does that make sense?

Yes.

So say normally when you send the btc to that site with in minutes, the timer would stop because i believe it recognizes the btc has been sent even though there are no confirmations yet?  But other times i believe timer would still go straight to 0 even after you sent it.  But the gambling site would then credit the USD amount to your sportsbetting account.  Does that make sense?  Also im talking about sportsbooks where you send btc to them and they credit you with fiat.  So say you want to deposit 500 dollars on the site, it then generates a btc address for you to send to and then show send exactly 0.xxxxxx btc to that address.  

Afaik the timer stops when the conditions they impose are all met (which can be either sending, either a number of confirmations, depending on their implementation or settings) or the designated time period has passed.

So i want to confirm...

You should really confirm with the support of the specific service, not with us. They do have support, don't they?
In my experience some tell that if you send out of the timeframe they will pick the new exchange rate for you and do credit you automatically, some may need to be reached to help you out.
And I won't say that 1 sat/vByte is good enough. Look on website in the moment you're sending and see what are the fees of the moment. In the week-ends may be good, although I'd use a tad more than just the bare minimum.

And again: want to be 100% certain about how a specific service is working? Best is to ask that service's support.
Here you didn't give specific name (or maybe you did, but I don't know them?), so all you can get is generic answers. And even if you would give the name of the exact service, only those using it could answer correctly.
If you want to be 100% sure, your best bet is their support.

[Upgrade00]

But once you send the btc from nano ledger to gambling site, it immediately shows up in latest operation transactions right?

I just want to point out that a hardware wallet is preferable for cold storage and usually to hold large amounts of Bitcoin.
Outgoing transactions reduces the anonymity of an address as it exposes the public key linked to it, if you use a hardware wallet and it contains large amount of Bitcoin and you would want to keep that private.

You can operate a hot wallet alongside a cold wallet to meet your different needs.

[jerry0]

Well right now fees seem to be 6 sat for low, 9 sat for medium and 16 sat for high.  So could you do 1 sat if you choose?  Okay but what if you are receiving btc from gambling sites and then depositing those amounts to another gambling site?  Use electrum or create another wallet on nano ledger?


What if few times you just want to withdraw btc from gambling site to your own wallet for cold storage?   Then any issue with that?  Just like normal then?
The thing though is when the site send you btc, you see the transaction and total btc balance.  But when you do other transactions later on, can that site see you moving your old btc?  But that isn't big concern right since its not like a person?


So say someone want to do few btc transactions.  Let say they want to receive just 50 dollars worth of btc from gambling site A... then send around that 50 dollars or even a bit less to another gambling site.  What do you recommend here then?  You don't want these transactions to go through your btc main account wallett?


What about if you want to withdraw say 500 dollars worth of btc from a gambling site A and only deposit say 100 dollars into gambling site B and hold the remaining amount of btc?  Which wallet and how should you do it?


What about if you want to withdraw 1000 dollars worth of btc from site to your hard wallet for storage?  Can you just get new address on nano ledger and do it like that?  Because when you do this, the btc receive would get added to the main btc account?



So people here... who store btc with their nano ledger s... many of you have two accounts?  So example... one could be called bitcoin main account which has btc... and another account would be called bitcoin spending account?  And that one could have much less and for daily transactions?  So when you want btc to be sent to that spending wallet... you click receive... then make sure you click on the account you named bitcoin spending account... is that correct?  But any btc you want stored for holding, you would then choose bitcoin main account?



So most people just have one btc account in ledger live correct?  Thus in accounts, you would probably see just BTC Account or BTC Main Account?  That is the segwit account im talking about.  But many other people would have two accounts showing and titled BTC Account... and another one would be BTC Spending Account so you see two different accounts and different balances for each?  You could have a third btc account where you call it ... Payment for Subscription... where that account could mainly be for paying subscription?

[NeuroticFish]

Well right now fees seem to be 6 sat for low, 9 sat for medium and 16 sat for high.  So could you do 1 sat if you choose?  Okay but what if you are receiving btc from gambling sites and then depositing those amounts to another gambling site?  Use electrum or create another wallet on nano ledger?

Electrum and Ledger Live are only software handling the private keys and transactions.
The money is neither on Ledger, nor on Electrum.
I use Electrum with my Ledger Nano S.
So you have to understand first what you're talking about.

What if few times you just want to withdraw btc from gambling site to your own wallet for cold storage?   Then any issue with that?  Just like normal then?
The thing though is when the site send you btc, you see the transaction and total btc balance.  But when you do other transactions later on, can that site see you moving your old btc?  But that isn't big concern right since its not like a person?

So say someone want to do few btc transactions.  Let say they want to receive just 50 dollars worth of btc from gambling site A... then send around that 50 dollars or even a bit less to another gambling site.  What do you recommend here then?  You don't want these transactions to go through your btc main account wallett?


What about if you want to withdraw say 500 dollars worth of btc from a gambling site A and only deposit say 100 dollars into gambling site B and hold the remaining amount of btc?  Which wallet and how should you do it?

Cold storage is about how you handle your wallet. What you have is not exactly cold storage. Cold storage imho needs a device (computer?) that's never connected to the internet.
If you want to understand better what happens with your coins I think that you should use Electrum with your Nano S, enable the Addresses tab, give new unused address for each new withdrawal, label the addresses, use  the "spend from" feature to spend only from certain addresses for certain sites so they don't know so well what coins are from where (although the Electrum server will know, like the Ledger Live server did, and to obtain more advanced privacy you need a setup I believe you cannot do now).

What about if you want to withdraw 1000 dollars worth of btc from site to your hard wallet for storage?  Can you just get new address on nano ledger and do it like that?  Because when you do this, the btc receive would get added to the main btc account?

That "main account" is just a sum. If you use what I've said a couple of lines before, you can avoid this problem.

So people here... who store btc with their nano ledger s... many of you have two accounts?  So example... one could be called bitcoin main account which has btc... and another account would be called bitcoin spending account?  And that one could have much less and for daily transactions?  So when you want btc to be sent to that spending wallet... you click receive... then make sure you click on the account you named bitcoin spending account... is that correct?  But any btc you want stored for holding, you would then choose bitcoin main account?

So most people just have one btc account in ledger live correct?  Thus in accounts, you would probably see just BTC Account or BTC Main Account?  That is the segwit account im talking about.  But many other people would have two accounts showing and titled BTC Account... and another one would be BTC Spending Account so you see two different accounts and different balances for each?  You could have a third btc account where you call it ... Payment for Subscription... where that account could mainly be for paying subscription?

If you use more than one "account" you may get surprises when recovering your wallet, I've seen that before and I don't like that approach.
As I said, I use Electrum with Ledger, labels, spend from.

Just as a note: if you go on this path, please select "use with hardware device" and not enter your seed (never enter your wallet's seed anywhere else than your hardware device and backup papers).

[jerry0]

If you use a nano ledger s and ledger live on your windows pc, isn't that cold storage?  There is hot wallet and cold wallet.  So cold wallet doesn't mean cold storage?  So cold storage would mean you use a cold wallet such as nano ledger s... but also use it on a computer that never connect the internet... and thus that would be cold storage?  But how is hardware wallet on your regular windows pc not cold storage?



So do many people use nano ledger s with electrum?  Got to assume more than 90% of people at least use nano ledger s with ledger live right?  The other 10% use electrum.  Would you say that is probably accurate?
Can't imagine anyone that is not tech savy... use electrum with nano ledger s as oppose to ledger live correct?  But what are the other reasons people use electrum with nano ledger s as oppose to ledger live?  Yea electrum when i used it back then was simple to use.  But if i set up nano ledger s with electrum now, does that mean i could use it with electrum or ledger live?  The thing is my electrum is not up to date at the moment, believe there has been one or maybe two updates that i have not downloaded.  Would i need to update electrum first before?  Do recall as long as your electrum isn't very old, then its fine.  Would you need to verify electrum again though from the electrum website?  Or could you just update electrum from electrum itself?  So nano ledger and electrum can both do coin control.  But you say its more simpler with electrum?



Well i mean say you call the btc segwit account in your ledger live... BTC Main Account.  So any btc you send and receive goes to that account.  So whether you cilck on accounts or portfolio, you see that name and the amount of btc it has and the usd balance amount etc.  So when you say the main account is the sum, are you talking about the portfolio tab account on ledger live or or account tab account on ledger live or both?  Because there is only one account showing called Bitcoin Main Account and its a segwit account so its same in both.


You say if you use more than one account, you may get surprises when recovering your wallet and you seen that before and you don't like that approach.  Can you elaborate on this?  This is a big concern if true.  So you mean if you create a second btc account on ledger live... lets call the second account... Bitcoin Spending Account.  While your only bitcoin account on ledger live before that is called Bitcoin Main Account... this is what you named it a while back... you are saying, there could be issues recovering your wallet?  Do you mean when someone has to restore their seed phrase again and then the accounts won't show up correctly or something? What issues did they have?  


When you go and restore your seed and install the btc app on nano ledger and then add btc account, wouldn't the btc account show up?  But if you had two different btc accounts or more, there might be issues?  Didn't think about this.  Because if you had two btc accounts... wouldn't you need to rename them again?  So you are saying only one btc account might show up only or something?



 

[khaled0111]

So do many people use nano ledger s with electrum?  Got to assume more than 90% of people at least use nano ledger s with ledger live right?  The other 10% use electrum.  Would you say that is probably accurate?

I don't think those numbers are accurate. I don't have the exact numbers myself but I tend to believe the number of users who connect their Ledger devices to Electrum is bigger than what you suggested.
If am not wrong, I remember many users complaining about Ledger Live not synchronizing properly and not reflecting their actual balance and most of them switched to Electrum which they found more convenient.
Anyway, nothing restricts you from using both apps, so it's not really a problem.

[jerry0]

What percentage of people use nano ledger with electrum then you say?  There is no way a regular person who buy a nano ledger for storage such as sending their coins from an exchange like binance or coinbase is most likely using electrum?  Most would seem to just use ledger live?  There isn't any other programs you could use it together withe right besides electrum?



But neuroticfish, can you explain the issues you heard about with other people recovering their wallets later on if they have more than one account?   Because if someone has two bitcoin accounts they created... let say they call it bitcoin holding wallet and the other is bitcoin spending wallet... what happens when they restore their seed and then add the accounts back to ledger live?  Will it show one account or two accounts?  And how would that look?  Say their main account has 5 BTC and the spending wallet account could have say 0.005 btc.  What happens when they restore their seed?


 

[jerry0]

Also if you are planning to just withdraw some btc from gambling site and then send some of that btc to another gambling site, privacy shouldn't be an issue right since they have tons of customers and process deposit and withdraws all the time?  This is different if you receive btc from a person though.

[NeuroticFish]

What percentage of people use nano ledger with electrum then you say?  There is no way a regular person who buy a nano ledger for storage such as sending their coins from an exchange like binance or coinbase is most likely using electrum?  Most would seem to just use ledger live?  There isn't any other programs you could use it together withe right besides electrum?

I don't know about percentages but I've been also using Electrum before I've bought the Nano S, so it was a natural option.\
Also it's known that LL is buggy and whenever people get into oddities and seek for help here, most probably he also gets advised to switch to Electrum.

Other wallets? Afaik Sparrow wallet may also work with Ledger, Blue Wallet too, and I know for sure that Mycelium for Android also works with Ledger since I've used that.

But neuroticfish, can you explain the issues you heard about with other people recovering their wallets later on if they have more than one account?   Because if someone has two bitcoin accounts they created... let say they call it bitcoin holding wallet and the other is bitcoin spending wallet... what happens when they restore their seed and then add the accounts back to ledger live?  Will it show one account or two accounts?  And how would that look?  Say their main account has 5 BTC and the spending wallet account could have say 0.005 btc.  What happens when they restore their seed?

In LL each new account means a different derivation path. You can see in their technical docs on derivation path:

Code: (https://github.com/LedgerHQ/ledger-live-common/blob/master/docs/derivation.md)

purpose' / coin_type' / account' / change / address_index

As also stated there, a typical derivation is

Code: (https://github.com/LedgerHQ/ledger-live-common/blob/master/docs/derivation.md)

44'/0'/0'/0/0

I've seen posts about wallet software that didn't handle correctly / didn't also check the derivation paths of accounts different than the original one (i.e. account 0), hence scaring people that they've lost coins (they didn't).
Also afaik it's not written anywhere that the other account has this or that derivation path.

So nothing is usually lost, but it's still troublesome for newbies when they wanted to recover or switch to another wallet software. Unfortunately I don't have exact examples at hand.

[jerry0]

Well i also used electrum before i bought the nano ledger s.  But after that, i stopped using electrum pretty much almost.  So i used ledger live but didn't know you could use electrum with it.  So i still used ledger live because thats what most people use.


Yea i meant people use ledger live with nano ledger.  But they also could use electrum.  Had no idea you could use other wallets with nano ledger beside electrum. 


Wait so when people have issues with restoring their wallet because of them having more than one btc account... such as main btc account... spending btc account... the reason is when they restore it, they are restoring it on another software wallet like electrum or something?  Do people have issues when they want to restore their coins with another nano ledger they bought?  Have there been cases of issues like that?  Because i meant just restoring it on say another nano ledger s or x or s plus etc.  Heard of the derivation path but don't know anything about it.  But do people even know about it?  Did they ask you what derivative path you want to choose when setting up the nano ledger?   When you set up other accounts such as coins that are not supported by ledger live, do you need to know the derivation path?  Do you install other coins on your nano ledger that is not supported by ledger live?

[NeuroticFish]

Wait so when people have issues with restoring their wallet because of them having more than one btc account... such as main btc account... spending btc account... the reason is when they restore it, they are restoring it on another software wallet like electrum or something?

I think so. I don't know if they had the same problem with LL, but, as I said, some have given up LL exactly because LL has bugs too.
Also, this kind of problems have happened in the past, I don't know if it's still the case, but I would still be cautious, especially as imho adding more (Bitcoin!) accounts doesn't seem to bring real benefits (at least not to me).

Do people have issues when they want to restore their coins with another nano ledger they bought?  Have there been cases of issues like that?  Because i meant just restoring it on say another nano ledger s or x or s plus etc.

I don't know. I don't think that restoring on another HW is something that happens often.

Heard of the derivation path but don't know anything about it.  But do people even know about it?

The vast majority doesn't. Also I think that most software hides that, since it can be seen as advanced info.

Did they ask you what derivative path you want to choose when setting up the nano ledger?

Nope.

When you set up other accounts such as coins that are not supported by ledger live, do you need to know the derivation path?

Other account can also mean another Bitcoin account. I didn't talk at all about other coins. And no, afaik derivation paths are not shown, nor asked in LL.

When you set up other accounts such as coins that are not supported by ledger live, do you need to know the derivation path? Do you install other coins on your nano ledger that is not supported by ledger live?

Since LL is the software to install apps on the HW, how could one install unsupported apps (i.e. unsupported coins)?!