Crypto Mixer developers are arrested in Netherlands

[BlackHatCoiner]

thus defeating the point of a mixer.

The point of a mixer is to break the connection of the funds, and that's what it successfully does. But, you're a brilliant example of a useful idiot.

Anyone who has been involved in the FreeRoss movement can tell you that there are definite consequences for writing code that can be used for illegal purposes.

Um, so everything can have similar consequences? Writing code that involves cryptography from mixers and entire cryptocurrency projects to securing protocols of message transfer such as https, can and are used for illegal purposes. Definitely it's the developers' fault that their software is used by criminals, and not the actual criminals'. 

[franky1]

thus defeating the point of a mixer.

The point of a mixer is to break the connection of the funds, and that's what it successfully does. But, you're a brilliant example of a useful idiot.

and your proof of a person that lives in idealisms, idolism and fantasy..
rather then looking at the facts..

it does not matter in the end if it cuts the connection to funds. you stil end up on a watchlist which means any information about you gets shared.
yep when you use a mixer.. it flags both your stuff you done before the mixer.. and the coins coming out of a mixer. where both are highlighted and watched and scrutinised more than random bitcoin transactions


EG
say you used coinbase to buy bitcoin and wanted to snap the connection so you then used a mixer and then with different set of coins deposited to buy a giftcard at gifts thinking that coinbase will never know that you bought a giftcard..

well.
guess what
by the very fact of using a mixer. your coinbase coins get highlighted on a chain analysis list as suspect just for using a mixer, which then triggers coinbase to see your withdrawal is a suspect use of funds due to entering a mixer. thus they flag you and send info to their sister company(gyft)
.. and chain analysis also passes ALL sets of funds received from mixers. which triggers gyfts deposit of coins to be on a suspect watch list. and then when they see your delivery address and name and the coinbase details. .. boom they have linked you. and they pass that back to coinbase that you purchased a giftcard

thus defeating the point of using the mixer, because it was the mixer that ended up triggering you being on a suspect watch list where they are actively watching you and passing your info around and sent as a sar to the government

now imagine you used coinbase and withdrew and then deposited to gift without the mixer.
well you are not on an active watchlist and your details of you using coinbase+gyfts is not sent as a SAR to the government

see the point..
one is where you are put on a SARS report (government see you) and one where government do not

dont blame the blockchain.. blame the services you use.

[Darker45]

Nobody wants to see developers arrested (for the most part) but this idea being pushed that “code is speech” is ridiculous. Anyone who has been involved in the FreeRoss movement can tell you that there are definite consequences for writing code that can be used for illegal purposes. What we’re seeing here is the beginning of the end of the Wild West in crypto.

Of course, it can't be generalized that code is speech. Neither can it be generalized that speech is protected. In which case, even if code is considered speech, it doesn't immediately follow that it is to be guaranteed full protection under the First Amendment.

However, it is one thing to write a code that purposely harms like a malware and quite another to write a code that could be used for illegal purposes. I think it is rather unfair to punish the latter. Because if it is justified, then Ethereum itself could also be penalized because Tornado Cash is operating on its blockchain. And that doesn't seem right.

[LoyceV]

However, it is one thing to write a code that purposely harms like a malware and quite another to write a code that could be used for illegal purposes.

If we go down that road, why isn't Bill Gates in jail? And Linus Torvalds and every software developer on the planet?

Code in general can be used for good and evil. Just like guns. Or cars. Or virtually any other product. I don't think we should hold software developers to a higher standard than gun manufacturers.

[BlackHatCoiner]

it does not matter in the end if it cuts the connection to funds. you stil end up on a watchlist which means any information about you gets shared.

But, you can only know my outputs, not the inputs I used prior mixing. Ending up on a watchlist is a situation I assume it happens on every address, as the ledger is public. Less mixing means more surveillance from chain analysis companies, whereas more mixing means they can do their job less effectively and efficiently.

by the very fact of using a mixer. your coinbase coins get highlighted on a chain analysis list as suspect just for using a mixer, which then triggers coinbase to see your withdrawal is a suspect use of funds due to entering a mixer.

Coinbase can enforce completely arbitrarily rules to their clients, as you said they might (I haven't ever read they do this, but they might) check the destination of my funds, after I withdrew them from the exchange, and act accordingly to their policy. Solution: Don't use Coinbase, because they don't treat their clients properly. Mixing is privacy, and privacy is a fundamental human right.

Note that both Coinbase and the gift card company cannot still link my funds, which wouldn't be the case if I had just send them directly from Coinbase to the gift card company.

and chain analysis also passes ALL sets of funds received from mixers. which triggers gyfts deposit of coins to be on a suspect watch list. and then when they see your delivery address and name and the coinbase details. .. boom they have linked you. and they pass that back to coinbase that you purchased a giftcard

They can't do this, for if they did, mixers would have no point. They can't break the connection of either ChipMixed or CoinJoined funds. No matter how many watchlists, pointless analysis, timestamp considerations they make, they can never be 100% certain that I have a connection with my mixed funds. Unless of course both Coinbase and the gift card store require KYC.

thus defeating the point of using the mixer, because it was the mixer that ended up triggering you being on a suspect watch list where they are actively watching you and passing your info around and sent as a sar to the government

Same thing happens if you don't mix. If you've handed over your personal data, these companies will send everything their government request about you. Whether you're a criminal or not. Because, being surveilled is non-related with being a criminal. Again, solution: Don't use services wherein you're forced to hand over KYC.

now imagine you used coinbase and withdrew and then deposited to gift without the mixer.
well you are not on an active watchlist and your details of you using coinbase+gyfts is not sent as a SAR to the government

Because, being added to a watchlist requires to have your privacy preserved. Giving up with privacy, means they can put their nose on your personal life more easily.

one is where you are put on a SARS report (government see you) and one where government do not

False. I'm either a suspect or a civilian who's opened up to full scrutiny. I prefer the former, thanks.

[dkbit98]

then Ethereum itself could also be penalized because Tornado Cash is operating on its blockchain. And that doesn't seem right.

Ethereum did have a shady start and some people thinks it's should be a security because tokens got sold by Vitalik and his buddies for Bitcoin.
However, I wouldn't arrest anyone for creating Ethereum, but we have examples of people being arrested for creating digital currencies in pre-Bitcoin era, for example E-Gold.

If we go down that road, why isn't Bill Gates in jail? And Linus Torvalds and every software developer on the planet?

Good question.
If you look some of the older deposition videos in case United States v. Microsoft you would see that Bill Gates was not very far from getting arrested.
Apparently, something changed and he converted to philanthropist who donated millions of dollars to media organizations and important people to smooth everything out.
To me Bill Gates doesn't look like a normal innocent human being in deposition videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFzHgvGqlb4

[DireWolfM14]

then Ethereum itself could also be penalized because Tornado Cash is operating on its blockchain. And that doesn't seem right.

Ethereum did have a shady start and some people thinks it's should be a security because tokens got sold by Vitalik and his buddies for Bitcoin.
However, I wouldn't arrest anyone for creating Ethereum, but we have examples of people being arrested for creating digital currencies in pre-Bitcoin era, for example E-Gold.

Ethereum may or may not be a security, but there are some questionable things about it's future.  The main issue I have with ETH has is that it's a shitty protocol, and the more experienced and astute crypto enthusiasts will eventually grow weary of it.  I believe that's why the vast majority of it's nodes are hosted on centralized server-providers such as AWS, and I also believe those nodes are very likely maintained by the wales still holding ETH.  They're the ones with the most to lose.

Once one realizes that ETH relies heavily on corporate VPS providers it starts too look more and more like a centralized protocol.  If the US government decided to sanction ETH, Amazon, Google, and MS would have no choice but to shut those nodes down.  You think gas fees are high now?  What do you think would happen if 60% of the nodes disappeared over night?

If we go down that road, why isn't Bill Gates in jail? And Linus Torvalds and every software developer on the planet?

Good question.
If you look some of the older deposition videos in case United States v. Microsoft you would see that Bill Gates was not very far from getting arrested.
Apparently, something changed and he converted to philanthropist who donated millions of dollars to media organizations and important people to smooth everything out.
To me Bill Gates doesn't look like a normal innocent human being in deposition videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFzHgvGqlb4

Lol, dkbit98, are you telling me you're not a fan of Bill Gates?  I know you and I have butted heads about Microsoft's products in the past, so it may surprise you to learn that I too am not a fan.  There are plenty of reasons to deride Bill Gates, but this is not one of them, in my opinion.

The US government has been trying to maintain it's monopoly on the world's currency for generations, and all of it's efforts are unconstitutional.  The US government is actually in violation of it's own laws, which is why they fight so hard to maintain their grip on the power provided by the USD.

Charging software developers for writing code that might, maybe, could possibly be used for criminal activity is a stretch, even for the most corrupt governments.  If they truly cared about the potential for software to be used in criminal activity there are plenty of developers who would be shaking in their boots right now, like those who wright gambling scripts.  Up until recently the US banned any online gambling, but I can't recall a single incident where the US government sanctioned writers of online casino code.  Because that doesn't threaten their power.

[dkbit98]

Ethereum may or may not be a security, but there are some questionable things about it's future.  The main issue I have with ETH has is that it's a shitty protocol, and the more experienced and astute crypto enthusiasts will eventually grow weary of it.

I thought this shit is going to be world computer with everything put on the blockchain  
This never gets old:

Lol, dkbit98, are you telling me you're not a fan of Bill Gates?  I know you and I have butted heads about Microsoft's products in the past, so it may surprise you to learn that I too am not a fan.  There are plenty of reasons to deride Bill Gates, but this is not one of them, in my opinion.

Can you or somebody else show me any real code that mister Bill Gates actually wrote, not including stuff he stole from other people?
He is not a developer, and on that videos he certainly looks like a lunatic and mentally unstable person, only thing I like about that is cake in his face
That doesn't mean that I am supporting US (or any other) government for arresting code developers, but it's not anything new... remember e-gold or read more about it.
If you go further in history you would see how governments even arrested people who own gold, or walk on the same ide of street with people of different skin color.
It's irony that people who created United States did that because of high British Empire taxes, and now they live in the land with highest taxes ever  
Now they are arresting developers, tomorrow they could arrest anyone for anything, or maybe they already can do that.